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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:58 - Nov 30 by GlasgowBlue
The only viable outcome from this conflict is a two state solution. But the main protagonists are doing everything in the power to stop this ever happening.
Other people are suggesting a one state solution. But a one state solution means three things to the three different parties involved.
In my view, the greatest obstacle to a two state solution are the settlements in the West Bank.
They have been going on for a long time, and I just can't ever see them being reversed.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:09 - Nov 30 with 2545 views
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:05 - Nov 30 by DJR
In my view, the greatest obstacle to a two state solution are the settlements in the West Bank.
They have been going on for a long time, and I just can't ever see them being reversed.
There are three solutions to that issue. One would be for a future Israeli government to compensate the settlers and get them to move within defined Israeli borders, land swaps or they stay where they are as fully functioning citizens of the new Palestinian state, which full protection.
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:09 - Nov 30 by GlasgowBlue
There are three solutions to that issue. One would be for a future Israeli government to compensate the settlers and get them to move within defined Israeli borders, land swaps or they stay where they are as fully functioning citizens of the new Palestinian state, which full protection.
I think all of those options are for the birds, given the direction of travel, which has only been accelerated in recent weeks.
Yes, it would need a change of government in Israel. See my thread from last night on what I think of those prospects. The upsetting thing for all people involved is that were were so close in 1996.
If it is some peace and stability, whilst maintaining the status quo, the Israeli should do everything within it's power to prop up Fatah in Gaza once Hamas are out of the way.
But why would Fatah, or anyone from the PA deal with Netanyahu and his coalition of ultra religious zealots. They aren't honest brokers.
Besides which, Abbas and the Fatah leadership are old, weak and don't have the support of the Palestinian people.
In an ideal world, we will reach the stage where Netanyahu and Ben Gvir take the fall for terrible lapse in security on October 7th, and a new government is selected. Probably too much to ask for as moderate party to win as Israel is in siege mode. We saw this in 1996 when Peres lost the election when a two state solution was as close as it has ever been, then Hamas launched a series of suicide attacks and handed the election to Netanyahu. A sliding doors moment. Well done Hamas. Screwed the Palestinian pole over again.
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:22 - Nov 30 by GlasgowBlue
Yes, it would need a change of government in Israel. See my thread from last night on what I think of those prospects. The upsetting thing for all people involved is that were were so close in 1996.
If it is some peace and stability, whilst maintaining the status quo, the Israeli should do everything within it's power to prop up Fatah in Gaza once Hamas are out of the way.
But why would Fatah, or anyone from the PA deal with Netanyahu and his coalition of ultra religious zealots. They aren't honest brokers.
Besides which, Abbas and the Fatah leadership are old, weak and don't have the support of the Palestinian people.
In an ideal world, we will reach the stage where Netanyahu and Ben Gvir take the fall for terrible lapse in security on October 7th, and a new government is selected. Probably too much to ask for as moderate party to win as Israel is in siege mode. We saw this in 1996 when Peres lost the election when a two state solution was as close as it has ever been, then Hamas launched a series of suicide attacks and handed the election to Netanyahu. A sliding doors moment. Well done Hamas. Screwed the Palestinian pole over again.
But settlements pre-date Netanyahu, and to my knowledge have not been reversed by any other government whether before or after Netanyahu first came to power. There are also getting on for 700,000 settlers in East Jerusalem and the West Bank.
As it is, I think the mood in Israel has changed for understandable reasons and perhaps for good, so it is not clear to me that any government that replaces Netanyahu's will take that much of a different line.
But we can hope.
[Post edited 30 Nov 2023 11:38]
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:54 - Nov 30 with 2468 views
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:29 - Nov 30 by DJR
But settlements pre-date Netanyahu, and to my knowledge have not been reversed by any other government whether before or after Netanyahu first came to power. There are also getting on for 700,000 settlers in East Jerusalem and the West Bank.
As it is, I think the mood in Israel has changed for understandable reasons and perhaps for good, so it is not clear to me that any government that replaces Netanyahu's will take that much of a different line.
But we can hope.
[Post edited 30 Nov 2023 11:38]
No but both Barack and Peres offered land swaps, which Netanyahu would never do.
But as I said in my liked post, most Israelis are in siege mode after 7/10 and would be very doubtful that they would elect a more progressive government in this climate.
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:54 - Nov 30 by GlasgowBlue
No but both Barack and Peres offered land swaps, which Netanyahu would never do.
But as I said in my liked post, most Israelis are in siege mode after 7/10 and would be very doubtful that they would elect a more progressive government in this climate.
Even if they did elect a progressive government, in my view the hardline nature of many settlers, which has been the case for a long time, really knocks on the head any sort of change in East Jerusalem and the West Bank.
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:29 - Nov 30 by DJR
But settlements pre-date Netanyahu, and to my knowledge have not been reversed by any other government whether before or after Netanyahu first came to power. There are also getting on for 700,000 settlers in East Jerusalem and the West Bank.
As it is, I think the mood in Israel has changed for understandable reasons and perhaps for good, so it is not clear to me that any government that replaces Netanyahu's will take that much of a different line.
But we can hope.
[Post edited 30 Nov 2023 11:38]
Dismantlement of Israeli settlements has happened before on numerous occasions under previous governments, is my understanding of the history.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:34 - Nov 30 with 2389 views
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:21 - Nov 30 by DJR
Even if they did elect a progressive government, in my view the hardline nature of many settlers, which has been the case for a long time, really knocks on the head any sort of change in East Jerusalem and the West Bank.
[Post edited 30 Nov 2023 14:25]
Israeli settlers have been forcibly removed before from historical Israeli settlements.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:57 - Nov 30 with 2364 views
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 15:08 - Nov 30 by Rob88
I’m a little more cynical.
I think people choose to cherry pick the history that fits the narrative they want to believe.
I was talking about the here and now and the West Bank and East Jerusalem, without which there is no viable Palestinian state.
As it is, there were 8,000 settlers in Gaza, compared to nearly 700,000 in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, so this is not really comparing like with like.
And when it comes to history, according to Wikipedia, demographic concerns, namely, the maintenance of a Jewish majority in Israeli-controlled areas, played a significant role in the development of the policy of withdrawal from Gaza.
And this is how Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's senior adviser, Dov Weissglass, explained the disengagement plan, which also included four settlements in the north of the West Bank.
"The significance of the disengagement plan is the freezing of the peace process, and when you freeze that process, you prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state, and you prevent a discussion on the refugees, the borders and Jerusalem. Effectively, this whole package called the Palestinian state, with all that it entails, has been removed indefinitely from our agenda. And all this with authority and permission. All with a presidential blessing and the ratification of both houses of Congress. That is exactly what happened. You know, the term 'peace process' is a bundle of concepts and commitments. The peace process is the establishment of a Palestinian state with all the security risks that entails. The peace process is the evacuation of settlements, it's the return of refugees, it's the partition of Jerusalem. And all that has now been frozen.... what I effectively agreed to with the Americans was that part of the settlements would not be dealt with at all, and the rest will not be dealt with until the Palestinians turn into Finns. That is the significance of what we did."
[Post edited 30 Nov 2023 16:01]
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 15:56 - Nov 30 with 2301 views
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 15:53 - Nov 30 by DJR
I was talking about the here and now and the West Bank and East Jerusalem, without which there is no viable Palestinian state.
As it is, there were 8,000 settlers in Gaza, compared to nearly 700,000 in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, so this is not really comparing like with like.
And when it comes to history, according to Wikipedia, demographic concerns, namely, the maintenance of a Jewish majority in Israeli-controlled areas, played a significant role in the development of the policy of withdrawal from Gaza.
And this is how Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's senior adviser, Dov Weissglass, explained the disengagement plan, which also included four settlements in the north of the West Bank.
"The significance of the disengagement plan is the freezing of the peace process, and when you freeze that process, you prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state, and you prevent a discussion on the refugees, the borders and Jerusalem. Effectively, this whole package called the Palestinian state, with all that it entails, has been removed indefinitely from our agenda. And all this with authority and permission. All with a presidential blessing and the ratification of both houses of Congress. That is exactly what happened. You know, the term 'peace process' is a bundle of concepts and commitments. The peace process is the establishment of a Palestinian state with all the security risks that entails. The peace process is the evacuation of settlements, it's the return of refugees, it's the partition of Jerusalem. And all that has now been frozen.... what I effectively agreed to with the Americans was that part of the settlements would not be dealt with at all, and the rest will not be dealt with until the Palestinians turn into Finns. That is the significance of what we did."
[Post edited 30 Nov 2023 16:01]
“But settlements pre-date Netanyahu, and to my knowledge have not been reversed by any other government whether before or after Netanyahu first came to power.”
“and to my knowledge have not been reversed by any other government whether before or after Netanyahu first came to power.”
“Have not been reversed by any other government whether before or after Netanyahu”
I was just stating, based on the specifics of what you said, is historically inaccurate.
Which suggests it is reasonable to infer it is plausible based upon precedent even if present day it is deemed improbable. This can of course change with changes in government and political will and winds.
Now you’ve clarified what you meant (I’m sure), and moved the goalposts in doing so, yes maybe it does seem increasingly improbable and more complicated than before.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 16:16 - Nov 30 with 2267 views
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 16:06 - Nov 30 by Rob88
“But settlements pre-date Netanyahu, and to my knowledge have not been reversed by any other government whether before or after Netanyahu first came to power.”
“and to my knowledge have not been reversed by any other government whether before or after Netanyahu first came to power.”
“Have not been reversed by any other government whether before or after Netanyahu”
I was just stating, based on the specifics of what you said, is historically inaccurate.
Which suggests it is reasonable to infer it is plausible based upon precedent even if present day it is deemed improbable. This can of course change with changes in government and political will and winds.
Now you’ve clarified what you meant (I’m sure), and moved the goalposts in doing so, yes maybe it does seem increasingly improbable and more complicated than before.
I can't claim to be an expert on Israel/Palestine (and I am not sure that anyone else on here is either), but my focus was on settlements in East Jerusalem and the West Bank because I knew the Israelis had withdrawn from Gaza. Perhaps I should have mentioned that, but I didn't think it relevant because the direction of travel in East Jerusalem and the West Bank (which is where I was focusing on) is going in only one direction..
As it is, my response to you indicates that the withdrawal from Gaza was not done for the purposes of promoting a two state solution.
But anyway, I am not moving the goal posts because my point all along was that I don't think there is any prospect of a two state solution because of the presence of nearly 700,000 settlers in East Jerusalem and the West Bank.
EDIT: This article from the Brookings Institution indicates that a survey of Middle East experts in 2021 indicated that 52% thought a two stage solution was no longer possible, 42% thought it unlikely in the next ten years, and only 6% thought it possible in the next ten years. And that was before 7 October.
Whether you call it a pause or a truce, the humanitarian element appears to be somewhat lacking according to this.
The Palestine Red Crescent has said that, between the start of the temporary ceasefire last Friday and Tuesday evening, 1132 aid lorries have entered the Gaza Strip.
That works out as just over 220 trucks a day.
For context, Philippe Lazzarini, the commissioner-general of UN relief agency UNRWA, told the BBC in October that about 500 trucks a day had been entering Gaza before the war started.
A number of aid agencies have said the amount of aid getting into Gaza is not enough for what is needed.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 17:30 - Nov 30 with 2197 views
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 15:58 - Nov 30 by DJR
I didn't know anything about it, but would obviously condemn it, as I am sure would everyone on here.
As it is, it looks like it has only just been announced.
[Post edited 30 Nov 2023 15:59]
That is because you are a fair and balanced poster. However, there are a few posters who have contributed multiple times to this thread who are rather silent on this latest announcement.
This is also a very worrying development if verified. An Israeli hostage says he was held in the home of an UNRWA teacher.
This teacher is a father of 10 children, who locked the hostage in the attic, didn’t provided him with any food or his medicine., Another was held in the house of a doctor. A doctor FFS.
BREAKING: 🇩🇪 Bundestag Foreign Affairs Committee's Frank Müller-Rosentritt just called on German government to “immediately stop all funds to UNRWA in Gaza.” Cites report that UNRWA teacher locked up an Israeli hostage. Germany is UNRWA's #2 top donor at $202 million last year. https://t.co/s8S85HWJyz
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 18:30 - Nov 30 by GlasgowBlue
That is because you are a fair and balanced poster. However, there are a few posters who have contributed multiple times to this thread who are rather silent on this latest announcement.
This is also a very worrying development if verified. An Israeli hostage says he was held in the home of an UNRWA teacher.
This teacher is a father of 10 children, who locked the hostage in the attic, didn’t provided him with any food or his medicine., Another was held in the house of a doctor. A doctor FFS.
BREAKING: 🇩🇪 Bundestag Foreign Affairs Committee's Frank Müller-Rosentritt just called on German government to “immediately stop all funds to UNRWA in Gaza.” Cites report that UNRWA teacher locked up an Israeli hostage. Germany is UNRWA's #2 top donor at $202 million last year. https://t.co/s8S85HWJyz
You are asking me to condemn something I was unaware of while I was not on here (assuming you are including me in your generalisation). Of course I condemn the comments you quote and I condemn the shooting that happened today in Jerusalem. An absence of comment should not be assumed to mean approval. I am sure there are things you haven't jumped to comment on that, if you had your attention drawn to them, you would condemn.
EDIT: Because "people calling for a ceasefire" would include me.
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 19:00 - Nov 30 by Nthsuffolkblue
You are asking me to condemn something I was unaware of while I was not on here (assuming you are including me in your generalisation). Of course I condemn the comments you quote and I condemn the shooting that happened today in Jerusalem. An absence of comment should not be assumed to mean approval. I am sure there are things you haven't jumped to comment on that, if you had your attention drawn to them, you would condemn.
EDIT: Because "people calling for a ceasefire" would include me.
[Post edited 30 Nov 2023 19:58]
In all honesty, I hadn't given you a moment's thought when I made my post.
In the latest incident, a UNIFIL patrol was hit by Israeli gunfire in the vicinity of Aytaroun of southern Lebanon, although there were no casualties. The U.N. force called the attack on "deeply troubling".
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 19:47 - Nov 30 by Nthsuffolkblue
In the latest incident, a UNIFIL patrol was hit by Israeli gunfire in the vicinity of Aytaroun of southern Lebanon, although there were no casualties. The U.N. force called the attack on "deeply troubling".
Any reason that’s your takeaway? Hezbollah have instigated the attacks, they killed a peacekeeper recently:
“Last December, an Irish soldier serving in UNIFIL was killed after the UNIFIL vehicle he was travelling in was fired on as it travelled in southern Lebanon. Seven people were charged by a Lebanese military tribunal in January for his death, the first fatal attack on U.N. peacekeepers in Lebanon since 2015.”
As an aside UNFIL were supposed to disarm Hezbollah as part of the terms of the 2006 ceasefire- but they did not carry this out. They are not Hamas they are much more highly trained and armed (to the extent that they can operate with impunity in Lebanon). In fact they are better armed than many states, with guided missiles and heavy artillery - hence Israel has to respond. This isn’t Gaza, of 100 people killed in Lebanon 80 are Hezbollah militants. They’ve instigated these attacks on Israel in order to trigger a wider war - and for once Israel has acted with relative restraint.
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