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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:20 - Dec 2 by redrickstuhaart
I said ISRAEL.
I did not say jews, or Israelis.
It is as clear as day unless you are looking for offence. So disingenuous.
Edited, on reflection, to add: How dare you make that insinuation. I used perfectly normal natural language and you are making out that I have deliberately chosen a particular way of saying something out of some anti semitic intent. Seriously, you have become incapable of rational balanced debate on this subject. It is not equivalent to saying "Palestine" wants to wipe Israel off the map, because there is no state of Palestine to refer to. If there was and its stated aim was removal of Israel, I would have said "palestine wants...." etc
You do the same to SB above. Highlighting two separate sentences and implying his entirely natural choice of words is somehow intended to be a holocaust reference. Disgusting, divisive and bigotted.
[Post edited 2 Dec 2023 9:30]
while i agree that your intention is not malign, i think it is important to use the right language to separate the extremists from the innocent.
i always try to say "the current israeli government" or "netanyahu" to avoid smearing an entire population, same as i'll always say "hamas" or "pij" rather than palestinians.
it's a small thing, but it's a human one and gives ones less stick for contrarians to beat you with and ignore your overall point
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:54 - Dec 2 by positivity
while i agree that your intention is not malign, i think it is important to use the right language to separate the extremists from the innocent.
i always try to say "the current israeli government" or "netanyahu" to avoid smearing an entire population, same as i'll always say "hamas" or "pij" rather than palestinians.
it's a small thing, but it's a human one and gives ones less stick for contrarians to beat you with and ignore your overall point
I think that if we pander to people looking for offense, we enter a whole world of problems.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:01 - Dec 2 with 2793 views
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:01 - Dec 2 by positivity
it's not pandering, it's being accurate. why cause offense if we don't need to and detract from the argument we're making?
It is accurate unless someone is looking to make an utterly dishonest claim about motivation. Israel is a country. Israel have stated aims.
When you juxtapose that with the comments he made to SB above, which were even worse, you see the problem of pandering. If we make it normal to wring our hands and apologise when someone constructs a forced meaning in order to get you to do so, where does that end?
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:28 - Dec 2 with 2747 views
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:20 - Dec 2 by redrickstuhaart
It is accurate unless someone is looking to make an utterly dishonest claim about motivation. Israel is a country. Israel have stated aims.
When you juxtapose that with the comments he made to SB above, which were even worse, you see the problem of pandering. If we make it normal to wring our hands and apologise when someone constructs a forced meaning in order to get you to do so, where does that end?
i agree re: the comments to stokie.
however, equating netanyahu's government with israel when the majority of israel disagree with him is similar to equating hamas with palestine when the majority of palestine disagree with them.
your choice, but be prepared for some very repetitive arguments to detract from the substance of your posts!
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 07:42 - Dec 1 by Darth_Koont
Depressing that the fighting has resumed.
Clearly the temporary ceasefire hasn't been nearly long enough to reverse the underlying humanitarian crisis or the release of more hostages.
This is the time for us in the west to be applying serious pressure on Israel. Or if not, at least to hear the endgame spelled out. We can't wring our hands and say how regrettable the situation is, as we just nod along to this.
Permanent ceasefire now!
I'm not following this terribly closely, but my uneducated take is that The West stood by for a shamefully long time during the first phase of the horrific Israeli response to the horrendous Hamas attacks and did nowhere near enough to temper that response, as the extent of the enormous civilian collateral damage became clear - a position had been taken and was uncomfortably stuck to.
The end of the 7 day pause gives a natural point for The West to put that dereliction of duty behind us and enforce the words that Blinken and those who follow him like sheep (kudos to France) have started to utter at last. And where the idiot leaders of both sides on the ground are in such intractable positions, to come up with a practical plan to enforce a two state solution, reverse the illegal settlements, bring the humans behind the Hamas atrocities to justice if possible, hold Netanyahu and his cronies to account and take away the fuel for the fire.
Hamas surely isn't really an entity that can be destroyed by bombarding the sh!t out of an entire people. The individual people, the ideas, the freedom-fighting aspect of it will just pop up again as something else. But it seems like the response of the current Israeli leadership is set in stone, so The West has to force this to stop now.
# WE ARE STEALING THE FUTURE FROM OUR CHILDREN --- WE MUST CHANGE COURSE #
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:12 - Dec 2 by NthQldITFC
I'm not following this terribly closely, but my uneducated take is that The West stood by for a shamefully long time during the first phase of the horrific Israeli response to the horrendous Hamas attacks and did nowhere near enough to temper that response, as the extent of the enormous civilian collateral damage became clear - a position had been taken and was uncomfortably stuck to.
The end of the 7 day pause gives a natural point for The West to put that dereliction of duty behind us and enforce the words that Blinken and those who follow him like sheep (kudos to France) have started to utter at last. And where the idiot leaders of both sides on the ground are in such intractable positions, to come up with a practical plan to enforce a two state solution, reverse the illegal settlements, bring the humans behind the Hamas atrocities to justice if possible, hold Netanyahu and his cronies to account and take away the fuel for the fire.
Hamas surely isn't really an entity that can be destroyed by bombarding the sh!t out of an entire people. The individual people, the ideas, the freedom-fighting aspect of it will just pop up again as something else. But it seems like the response of the current Israeli leadership is set in stone, so The West has to force this to stop now.
“ Hamas surely isn't really an entity that can be destroyed by bombarding the sh!t out of an entire people. The individual people, the ideas, the freedom-fighting aspect of it will just pop up again as something else. But it seems like the response of the current Israeli leadership is set in stone, so The West has to force this to stop now.”
I agree, in the same way we (the West) failed to destroy Al Queda, ISIS, and the Taliban, as well as various other extremist groups in the Middle East. They are still there, still radicalising others, and spreading violence. If anything, we’ve helped spread their ideology by intervening in the Arab Spring (particularly Libya), whereby we destabilised even more countries.
But at this point, the West can only threaten sanctions (which they wouldn’t to an ally). The US were trying to get Isreal to agree a ceasefire for sometime, with Isreal unwilling to do so until the hostages were freed. Hamas are holding them as a Trump card, and probably won't release them without a more permanent ceasefire. It’s hard to see a rapid and peaceful end to the conflict.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 23:29 - Dec 2 with 2542 views
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:28 - Dec 2 by positivity
i agree re: the comments to stokie.
however, equating netanyahu's government with israel when the majority of israel disagree with him is similar to equating hamas with palestine when the majority of palestine disagree with them.
your choice, but be prepared for some very repetitive arguments to detract from the substance of your posts!
I hear what you say about use of language. Respectful and careful use of language is to be lauded. But we cannot let people dictate language to us unreasonably.
He knew full well it was a reference ot the Israeli state.
When was the last time anyone said "The current US government, not necessarily supported by the whole population, has agreed to send weapons to Ukraine"? We dont- we say America. Or we say "Russia invaded Ukraine"- no-one takes that to mean that all Russians invaded.
This is the same invidious hand wringing that gets us a situation where "river to the sea" is arrestable in one direction, but justified in the other.
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 23:29 - Dec 2 by redrickstuhaart
I hear what you say about use of language. Respectful and careful use of language is to be lauded. But we cannot let people dictate language to us unreasonably.
He knew full well it was a reference ot the Israeli state.
When was the last time anyone said "The current US government, not necessarily supported by the whole population, has agreed to send weapons to Ukraine"? We dont- we say America. Or we say "Russia invaded Ukraine"- no-one takes that to mean that all Russians invaded.
This is the same invidious hand wringing that gets us a situation where "river to the sea" is arrestable in one direction, but justified in the other.
[Post edited 2 Dec 2023 23:56]
There is no justification for either side using the term “from the river to the sea”. If it’s used by people supporting Palestine then it’s a call for the destruction of Israel. If it’s used by people supporting Israel then it’s a call for the destruction of the West Bank and Gaza.
There have been literally hundreds of incidents of people on the pro Palestine protest or march in this country chanting from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free”. I am unaware of a single person being arrested purely for chanting this. If yiu have a link to any arrest fur this I’d be grateful if you could link it and I’ll happily delete this paragraph from my post.
I am however, unaware of anyone on a pro Israel protest or march in this country chanting from the river to the sea, Israel will be free”. If you have evidence of this happening then you should report these people to the Met.
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 07:41 - Dec 3 by GlasgowBlue
There is no justification for either side using the term “from the river to the sea”. If it’s used by people supporting Palestine then it’s a call for the destruction of Israel. If it’s used by people supporting Israel then it’s a call for the destruction of the West Bank and Gaza.
There have been literally hundreds of incidents of people on the pro Palestine protest or march in this country chanting from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free”. I am unaware of a single person being arrested purely for chanting this. If yiu have a link to any arrest fur this I’d be grateful if you could link it and I’ll happily delete this paragraph from my post.
I am however, unaware of anyone on a pro Israel protest or march in this country chanting from the river to the sea, Israel will be free”. If you have evidence of this happening then you should report these people to the Met.
What’s your view on the chant btw?
[Post edited 3 Dec 2023 7:47]
"From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free" is a long-established pro-Palestinian slogan/chant protesting apartheid in the occupied territories.
Pretending it's genocidal in nature is entirely in keeping with pro-Israel attempts to dismiss and smear the defence of Palestinian people and their human rights as the worst kind of antisemitism.
Pronouns: He/Him
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 08:37 - Dec 3 with 2419 views
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 08:33 - Dec 3 by Darth_Koont
"From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free" is a long-established pro-Palestinian slogan/chant protesting apartheid in the occupied territories.
Pretending it's genocidal in nature is entirely in keeping with pro-Israel attempts to dismiss and smear the defence of Palestinian people and their human rights as the worst kind of antisemitism.
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 08:39 - Dec 3 by Darth_Koont
I'm still telling you.
Well your telling me untruths. The chant originated in 1964 under the leadership of Yasser Arafat, the PLO called for the establishment of a single Palestinian state that extend from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea.
But seeing as you are answering for redrickstuhaart, are you aware of a single person being arresting in the UK for this chant at the pro Palestine marches, and are you aware of anyone at a pro Israeli march in the UK using this chant?
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 08:50 - Dec 3 by GlasgowBlue
Well your telling me untruths. The chant originated in 1964 under the leadership of Yasser Arafat, the PLO called for the establishment of a single Palestinian state that extend from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea.
But seeing as you are answering for redrickstuhaart, are you aware of a single person being arresting in the UK for this chant at the pro Palestine marches, and are you aware of anyone at a pro Israeli march in the UK using this chant?
So peaceful anti-racists took on part of a PLO slogan for their chant because of its genocidal meaning?
Applying the most extreme interpretation despite all the evidence to the contrary — and apparently without using any common sense — is ridiculous bad faith.
Pronouns: He/Him
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:12 - Dec 3 with 2351 views
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:10 - Dec 3 by Darth_Koont
So peaceful anti-racists took on part of a PLO slogan for their chant because of its genocidal meaning?
Applying the most extreme interpretation despite all the evidence to the contrary — and apparently without using any common sense — is ridiculous bad faith.
They took on all of it. Not part. I doubt most even know its origins or meanings. Hence nobody is being arrested for chanting it as redrickstuhaart claims. But I’ll ask you again. You can swerve again if you want, but I’ll ask again.
Are you aware of a single person being arresting in the UK for this chant at the pro Palestine marches, and are you aware of anyone at a pro Israeli march in the UK using this chant?
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:12 - Dec 3 by GlasgowBlue
They took on all of it. Not part. I doubt most even know its origins or meanings. Hence nobody is being arrested for chanting it as redrickstuhaart claims. But I’ll ask you again. You can swerve again if you want, but I’ll ask again.
Are you aware of a single person being arresting in the UK for this chant at the pro Palestine marches, and are you aware of anyone at a pro Israeli march in the UK using this chant?
[Post edited 3 Dec 2023 9:15]
I don't know. Has it been classed as antisemitic hate speech by the police or just by you and others on the pro-Israel side? Wasn't this what Braverman was trying to push them towards?
Why would pro-Israel marchers use it? Israel is already free in those terms.
Pronouns: He/Him
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:27 - Dec 3 with 2309 views
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:21 - Dec 3 by Darth_Koont
I don't know. Has it been classed as antisemitic hate speech by the police or just by you and others on the pro-Israel side? Wasn't this what Braverman was trying to push them towards?
Why would pro-Israel marchers use it? Israel is already free in those terms.
You don’t know. I doubt the other fella does either (can’t keep copying and pasting his username) but he made the comment all the same.
BTW. Anyone pro Israeli chanting from the river to the sea is calling for the destruction of the West Bank and Gaza and claiming all the land for a single Israeli state. It’s wrong. No offs no buts and no banging over harvests to justify its use.
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:12 - Dec 3 by GlasgowBlue
They took on all of it. Not part. I doubt most even know its origins or meanings. Hence nobody is being arrested for chanting it as redrickstuhaart claims. But I’ll ask you again. You can swerve again if you want, but I’ll ask again.
Are you aware of a single person being arresting in the UK for this chant at the pro Palestine marches, and are you aware of anyone at a pro Israeli march in the UK using this chant?
[Post edited 3 Dec 2023 9:15]
"They took on all of it".
That's just your usual smeary bollox. Unless you've gone so far down the rabbithole that you really don't know up from down anymore.
Pronouns: He/Him
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:31 - Dec 3 with 2280 views
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:27 - Dec 3 by GlasgowBlue
You don’t know. I doubt the other fella does either (can’t keep copying and pasting his username) but he made the comment all the same.
BTW. Anyone pro Israeli chanting from the river to the sea is calling for the destruction of the West Bank and Gaza and claiming all the land for a single Israeli state. It’s wrong. No offs no buts and no banging over harvests to justify its use.
Of course. Because that would be supremacist and genocidal given the actual illegal occupation and oppression of Palestinians.
Pronouns: He/Him
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:31 - Dec 3 with 2282 views
I was alerted to the following recent article in the Lancet by someone speaking on the World Service earlier this morning. It indicates the mortality data coming out of Gaza is pretty accurate. But surprise, surprise, I can't find this reported anywhere in the UK media.
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:27 - Dec 3 by GlasgowBlue
You don’t know. I doubt the other fella does either (can’t keep copying and pasting his username) but he made the comment all the same.
BTW. Anyone pro Israeli chanting from the river to the sea is calling for the destruction of the West Bank and Gaza and claiming all the land for a single Israeli state. It’s wrong. No offs no buts and no banging over harvests to justify its use.
I will establish your borders from the Red sea to the Mediterranean, and from the desert to the Euphrates River. I will give into your hands the people who live in the land, and you will drive them out before you. Do not make a covenant with them or with their gods. Do not let them live on your land or they will cause you to sin against me
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:52 - Dec 3 with 2197 views
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:41 - Dec 3 by leitrimblue
I will establish your borders from the Red sea to the Mediterranean, and from the desert to the Euphrates River. I will give into your hands the people who live in the land, and you will drive them out before you. Do not make a covenant with them or with their gods. Do not let them live on your land or they will cause you to sin against me
Was going to post a YouTube of a Bob Marley song but not sure it sends the right message...or maybe I need to listen to it differently.
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:54 - Dec 2 by positivity
while i agree that your intention is not malign, i think it is important to use the right language to separate the extremists from the innocent.
i always try to say "the current israeli government" or "netanyahu" to avoid smearing an entire population, same as i'll always say "hamas" or "pij" rather than palestinians.
it's a small thing, but it's a human one and gives ones less stick for contrarians to beat you with and ignore your overall point
Despite the fact that Netanyahu is still Prime Minister, it is clear the current military action has widespread political support given the following.
Among opposition parties, Yesh Atid leader and former prime minister Yair Lapid, National Unity chairman Benny Gantz, Yisrael Beiteinu party leader Avigdor Lieberman and Labor Party leader Merav Michaeli issued a joint statement on 7 October expressing full backing for the IDF and unity with the government, saying: "In times like these, there is no opposition and coalition in Israel."
Subsequent to that, National Unity entered a unity government, and a War Cabinet of five, consisting of two National Unity members, was formed. The unity government was approved by a 66-4 majority in the Knesset, and even though Yesh Atid didn't join the unity government, its leader said it would support the war effort from outside the government.
Media reports from Israel also indicate overwhelming support for the military action, with the exception of a few peace activists, and maybe also the family members of the remaining hostages.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:38 - Dec 3 with 2075 views
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:11 - Dec 3 by DJR
Despite the fact that Netanyahu is still Prime Minister, it is clear the current military action has widespread political support given the following.
Among opposition parties, Yesh Atid leader and former prime minister Yair Lapid, National Unity chairman Benny Gantz, Yisrael Beiteinu party leader Avigdor Lieberman and Labor Party leader Merav Michaeli issued a joint statement on 7 October expressing full backing for the IDF and unity with the government, saying: "In times like these, there is no opposition and coalition in Israel."
Subsequent to that, National Unity entered a unity government, and a War Cabinet of five, consisting of two National Unity members, was formed. The unity government was approved by a 66-4 majority in the Knesset, and even though Yesh Atid didn't join the unity government, its leader said it would support the war effort from outside the government.
Media reports from Israel also indicate overwhelming support for the military action, with the exception of a few peace activists, and maybe also the family members of the remaining hostages.
Hamas are the government of Gaza They have overwhelming support from the Palestinian population. When the attack happened and the hostages taken into Gaza media reports showed 1000s of civilians celebrating.
Taking your approach people would be correct if they kept saying the govenment of Gaza and thus the Palestinian population was responsible for the Oct 7th war crime against Israeli citizens rather than saying Hamas.
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