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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:38 - Dec 3 by BloomBlue
Hamas are the government of Gaza They have overwhelming support from the Palestinian population. When the attack happened and the hostages taken into Gaza media reports showed 1000s of civilians celebrating.
Taking your approach people would be correct if they kept saying the govenment of Gaza and thus the Palestinian population was responsible for the Oct 7th war crime against Israeli citizens rather than saying Hamas.
[Post edited 3 Dec 2023 10:53]
Hamas controls Gaza not Palestine (which doesn't exist as a state), and the following article suggests the position is much more nuanced than you indicate.
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:41 - Dec 3 by leitrimblue
I will establish your borders from the Red sea to the Mediterranean, and from the desert to the Euphrates River. I will give into your hands the people who live in the land, and you will drive them out before you. Do not make a covenant with them or with their gods. Do not let them live on your land or they will cause you to sin against me
That’s a bit long for a chant at a protest isn’t it? Don’t think it will catch on mate.
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 08:33 - Dec 3 by Darth_Koont
"From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free" is a long-established pro-Palestinian slogan/chant protesting apartheid in the occupied territories.
Pretending it's genocidal in nature is entirely in keeping with pro-Israel attempts to dismiss and smear the defence of Palestinian people and their human rights as the worst kind of antisemitism.
Sorry but your wrong.
Nobody is pretenting, Hamas have deliberately changed the meaning into a sectarian slogan. It is a call by Hamas for the driving out of all Jews from the region; at best, a demand for ethnic cleansing, at worst for genocide.
To say it is the worst kind on antisemitism is to deliberately ignore the Hamas use of the saying and is in many ways an under current of antisemitism.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:18 - Dec 3 with 3348 views
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:59 - Dec 3 by GlasgowBlue
I do.
So how does it fit in with your previous statement 'anyone pro Isreali chanting from the river to the sea is calling for the destruction of the West Bank and gaza and claiming all the land for a single Israeli state'? Isn't this verse calling for exactly that?
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:36 - Dec 3 with 3315 views
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:18 - Dec 3 by leitrimblue
So how does it fit in with your previous statement 'anyone pro Isreali chanting from the river to the sea is calling for the destruction of the West Bank and gaza and claiming all the land for a single Israeli state'? Isn't this verse calling for exactly that?
I don’t think the bloke who was supposed to have said these words actually existed mate. Good luck with trying to prosecute God for hate speech though.
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:05 - Dec 3 by BloomBlue
Sorry but your wrong.
Nobody is pretenting, Hamas have deliberately changed the meaning into a sectarian slogan. It is a call by Hamas for the driving out of all Jews from the region; at best, a demand for ethnic cleansing, at worst for genocide.
To say it is the worst kind on antisemitism is to deliberately ignore the Hamas use of the saying and is in many ways an under current of antisemitism.
"Hamas have deliberately changed the meaning into a sectarian slogan".
Sorry, that's nonsense.
Pronouns: He/Him
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:22 - Dec 3 with 3208 views
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:58 - Dec 3 by Darth_Koont
"Hamas have deliberately changed the meaning into a sectarian slogan".
Sorry, that's nonsense.
Indeed. It's always been a call for a single Palestinian state, with no Israel. Hamas haven't changed its meaning in the slightest. It means the same today as it did in 1964.
Most people who chant it haven't got a clue as to it's meaning. Although with the wide debate over it's meaning, that excuse is getting a bit false now.
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:36 - Dec 3 by GlasgowBlue
I don’t think the bloke who was supposed to have said these words actually existed mate. Good luck with trying to prosecute God for hate speech though.
Though you don't believe in his existence, unfortunately for Palestinians many Isrealis do believe in God and are influenced by the torah. Or are you suggesting the Torah isn't important to Jewish people?
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:46 - Dec 3 with 3145 views
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 22:19 - Dec 1 by Eireannach_gorm
Because I have chosen to focus on the conflict in Ukraine I have avoided comment on this thread but I have to make one observation about this thread. Similar to all conflicts, this one promotes the extremes while silencing the the middleground. This conflict will be continued until Hamas and the Israeli Right Wing beat themselves ( and enormous amounts of innocents ) to a standstill ( read: death ).
Conflict resolution can only be achieved by looking into the heart of your enemy. Maybe the problem here is to have a death cult in the equation. In general the above applies. I thought of this when our Tánaiste, Michaél Martin visited a kibbutz and talked with the mayor. He was chastised because of the Irish support for the Palestinians and the mayor asked Michaél did his children quake with fear under a rocket bombardment threat. Michaél has lost a child himself. Sometimes taking account of your 'enemies' situation helps to temper your own stance.
I yearn for the day where Israelis and Palestinians can live peacefully beside each other ( because a two state solution seems to be the only way to resolve this ).
As someone described by GB on this thread a few days ago as a fair and balanced poster, I don't think it is correct to regard this thread as promoting both extremes, if that is what you are suggesting.
In my view, no one on this thread supports Hamas (despite implicit and perhaps not so implicit accusations to that effect). The parameters of the views on this thread are therefore, on the one side, a desire for a ceasefire (which I would regard as the middle ground and which is supported by various aid agencies) and, on the other, support for Israel's desire to eliminate Hamas, but within those parameters there are the usual sometimes bitter arguments that tend to happen on TWTD. And those advocating either approach appear to agree that the only ultimate solution is negotiations with a view to a two state solution, although my view is that a two state solution is for the birds.
As it is, I have not commented much on the Ukraine thread, partly because it started before I got involved with TWTD but mainly because the views on the thread are represented by UK Government policy.
That, it seems to me, is the chief difference between this conflict and, say, Syria or Ukraine, because the main political parties are out of step with a sizeable proportion of public opinion on this issue. Indeed, that was why there was no need for marches on Syria and Ukraine, to counter accusations on TWTD that have been made in relation to recent marches. In addition, the written media as a whole takes a fairly one-side view on the conflict which in turn tends to polarise things.
As it is, Macron, Blinken and Kamala Harris have, to their credit, spoken out about the effect of the war on civilians, but all we get from Sunak and Starmer is platitudes.
The problem it seems to me is that Western double standards in relation to civilians in Gaza, when compared to those in Ukraine and Syria, is only likely to lessen public support for Western help for Ukraine.
[Post edited 3 Dec 2023 21:31]
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:48 - Dec 3 with 3129 views
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:22 - Dec 3 by GlasgowBlue
Indeed. It's always been a call for a single Palestinian state, with no Israel. Hamas haven't changed its meaning in the slightest. It means the same today as it did in 1964.
Most people who chant it haven't got a clue as to it's meaning. Although with the wide debate over it's meaning, that excuse is getting a bit false now.
Hamas have also used it in their own way.
Where I disagree with Bloom is that Hamas have "changed the meaning" when pro-Palestinian and peace marchers use it.
You ascribe meaning to what people mean, not just give it any meaning you want.
Pronouns: He/Him
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:12 - Dec 3 with 3080 views
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:38 - Dec 3 by leitrimblue
Though you don't believe in his existence, unfortunately for Palestinians many Isrealis do believe in God and are influenced by the torah. Or are you suggesting the Torah isn't important to Jewish people?
The Torah is very important for Jewish people. Just as the Quran is very important to followers of Islam.
Unfortunately religious extremists from both sides follow a warped interpretation of both books.
Somewhere in your series of posts you seem desperate to make a point However, I'm not sure what that point is. And in all honestly I'm not sure you do either.
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:12 - Dec 3 by GlasgowBlue
The Torah is very important for Jewish people. Just as the Quran is very important to followers of Islam.
Unfortunately religious extremists from both sides follow a warped interpretation of both books.
Somewhere in your series of posts you seem desperate to make a point However, I'm not sure what that point is. And in all honestly I'm not sure you do either.
I think you know exactly what the point is, I imagine you just don't wish to say it out loud. But I will try and break it down nice and easy for you.
Though you seem very happy to point out that Hamas wish to destroy all Jewish people and that the sentance from land to the sea is calling for the death of Jewish people.
You seem to have forgotten that every Isreali child is taught through the Torah that the land from the river to the sea is the Jewish promised land and that they must drive the current occupants out of their land and claim this land for a single Isreali state.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:58 - Dec 3 with 3010 views
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:40 - Dec 3 by leitrimblue
I think you know exactly what the point is, I imagine you just don't wish to say it out loud. But I will try and break it down nice and easy for you.
Though you seem very happy to point out that Hamas wish to destroy all Jewish people and that the sentance from land to the sea is calling for the death of Jewish people.
You seem to have forgotten that every Isreali child is taught through the Torah that the land from the river to the sea is the Jewish promised land and that they must drive the current occupants out of their land and claim this land for a single Isreali state.
You are deliberately confusing two issues here. Hamas DO want to kill every Jew in the middle east. That isn't up for debate. The chant 'from the river to the sea' calls for a single Palestinian state in place of Israel. It does NOT call for death to all Jews.
But this is absolutely vile. "every Isreali child is taught through the Torah that the land from the river to the sea is the Jewish promised land and that they must drive the current occupants out of their land and claim this land for a single Isreali state".
I think you are talking dangerous and deranged bollox. I think I'll stop interacting with you. You are making your views of Jewish people very clear. I find you most offensive.
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:38 - Dec 3 by BloomBlue
Hamas are the government of Gaza They have overwhelming support from the Palestinian population. When the attack happened and the hostages taken into Gaza media reports showed 1000s of civilians celebrating.
Taking your approach people would be correct if they kept saying the govenment of Gaza and thus the Palestinian population was responsible for the Oct 7th war crime against Israeli citizens rather than saying Hamas.
[Post edited 3 Dec 2023 10:53]
That is complete bobbins, the BBC have reported that Palestinian support in Gaza is less than forty percent and probably much less - and that is even with the significant duress that Hamas use on the population to rule by fear. A more accurate picture emerges from a poll taken in July by the Israeli-American think tank The Washington Institute (note that the ceasefire referred to in the article is the one that subsisted before the tenth of October and that was broken by the Hamas atrocity and not the one now yearned for to halt the Israeli Defence Force destruction.)
Also, the last time anything like en election happened for Palestinians was seventeen years ago. As I pointed out to Rob88 much earlier on this thread, such infrequent sounding of popular opinion is very far from democracy. I heard a BBC report recently that suggested that the Palestinian Authority tried to hold elections on the West Bank three years ago but the Israeli government did not give permission. Most Palestinians do not have a voice, and will not until the United Nations step in to replace the warmongers for a while.
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:58 - Dec 3 by GlasgowBlue
You are deliberately confusing two issues here. Hamas DO want to kill every Jew in the middle east. That isn't up for debate. The chant 'from the river to the sea' calls for a single Palestinian state in place of Israel. It does NOT call for death to all Jews.
But this is absolutely vile. "every Isreali child is taught through the Torah that the land from the river to the sea is the Jewish promised land and that they must drive the current occupants out of their land and claim this land for a single Isreali state".
I think you are talking dangerous and deranged bollox. I think I'll stop interacting with you. You are making your views of Jewish people very clear. I find you most offensive.
[Post edited 3 Dec 2023 14:06]
'The chant from the river to the sea calls for a single Palestinian state in place of Isreal'. The Torah calls for a single Isreali state (promised land) and the removal of the current occupants.
What do you find 'absolutely vile'? The fact the Torah states such hateful nonsense or that Jewish children are taught the Torah?
Would you like to explain why quoting the Torah is talking dangerous and deranged bollox?
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 21:26 - Dec 3 with 2810 views
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:18 - Dec 3 by leitrimblue
'The chant from the river to the sea calls for a single Palestinian state in place of Isreal'. The Torah calls for a single Isreali state (promised land) and the removal of the current occupants.
What do you find 'absolutely vile'? The fact the Torah states such hateful nonsense or that Jewish children are taught the Torah?
Would you like to explain why quoting the Torah is talking dangerous and deranged bollox?
Indeed. And the resort once again to anyone making a point that is not liked, is to shout anti semitism.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 22:48 - Dec 3 with 2731 views
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:40 - Dec 3 by leitrimblue
I think you know exactly what the point is, I imagine you just don't wish to say it out loud. But I will try and break it down nice and easy for you.
Though you seem very happy to point out that Hamas wish to destroy all Jewish people and that the sentance from land to the sea is calling for the death of Jewish people.
You seem to have forgotten that every Isreali child is taught through the Torah that the land from the river to the sea is the Jewish promised land and that they must drive the current occupants out of their land and claim this land for a single Isreali state.
Where in the Torah does it state a 'single Israeli state'
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 07:38 - Dec 4 with 2603 views
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 21:37 - Dec 3 by redrickstuhaart
Indeed. And the resort once again to anyone making a point that is not liked, is to shout anti semitism.
I note that you completely avoided my question regarding your claim that chanting “from the river to the sea" is arrestable in one direction, but justified in the other. So I’ll ask again.
Are you aware of a single person being arrestied in the UK for this chant at the pro Palestine marches, and are you aware of anyone at a pro Israeli march in the UK using this chant?
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:12 - Dec 2 by NthQldITFC
I'm not following this terribly closely, but my uneducated take is that The West stood by for a shamefully long time during the first phase of the horrific Israeli response to the horrendous Hamas attacks and did nowhere near enough to temper that response, as the extent of the enormous civilian collateral damage became clear - a position had been taken and was uncomfortably stuck to.
The end of the 7 day pause gives a natural point for The West to put that dereliction of duty behind us and enforce the words that Blinken and those who follow him like sheep (kudos to France) have started to utter at last. And where the idiot leaders of both sides on the ground are in such intractable positions, to come up with a practical plan to enforce a two state solution, reverse the illegal settlements, bring the humans behind the Hamas atrocities to justice if possible, hold Netanyahu and his cronies to account and take away the fuel for the fire.
Hamas surely isn't really an entity that can be destroyed by bombarding the sh!t out of an entire people. The individual people, the ideas, the freedom-fighting aspect of it will just pop up again as something else. But it seems like the response of the current Israeli leadership is set in stone, so The West has to force this to stop now.
So much for that. The West is going to look back on this with utter self-loathing at what it has allowed and is still allowing to happen. What's the next step for the US if Israel won't comply?
# WE ARE STEALING THE FUTURE FROM OUR CHILDREN --- WE MUST CHANGE COURSE #
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 07:38 - Dec 4 by GlasgowBlue
I note that you completely avoided my question regarding your claim that chanting “from the river to the sea" is arrestable in one direction, but justified in the other. So I’ll ask again.
Are you aware of a single person being arrestied in the UK for this chant at the pro Palestine marches, and are you aware of anyone at a pro Israeli march in the UK using this chant?
I note that you completely ignore the points made in favour of nitpocking again.
I note that the idea of a mindset- ie one side think its something that should be arrestable, but justified in the other direction, causes you cognitive dissonance.
I am not prepared to engage with you any further, as a result of your despicable and dishonest insults / allegations against both me and SB.
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