| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 17:57 - Mar 14 with 1144 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 14:52 - Mar 14 by Europablue |
I'm going to ignore your childish insults and try and respond without lowering the tone of the discussion. I guess I shouldn't engage at all, but I will against my better judgment.
I don't know anything about that Tory donor. I'm not interested enough to look into it, I will accept your appraisal of him, although I doubt you know enough about him to know what he feels in his heart.
Mentioning 4D chess was a joke, because that is what Trump supporters often say when he does something dumb that upsets his opposition into overacting and making a bad move. I accept that the tone was not obvious about what I said. The way you react uncharitably to my comments says something about you. I don't have any malice against people on the internet, I just try and remember that I could be talking to a 13 year old boy who is just trying to troll me. Getting angry is what those kind of trolls want.
I'm not denying that for some people Dianne Abbott's race is a contributing factor for the abuse, but the trigger is what she says then wrongly race becomes a factor of that abuse. I am sure that she gets horrific racial abuse and whilst I have experienced quite significant racial abuse, I didn't grow up having to deal with that. It is very damaging to suffer racial abuse while you are still building up your sense of self. Kemi Badenoch is also a black MP and she isn't the most abused MP. If race were the only factor they would get equal abuse.
With the internet and society in general, you can't judge the majority by the actions of a few extreme people.
1. I kind of agree with in that I believe clumsy words do not make you racist, it is the racist intent and hatred in your heart. However, not all people hold the same view of what racism is. There are some people who say that all white people are inherently racist (that is a racist comment in of itself). Everyone is discriminatory even if it's in a positive way (for example, I have a positive view of Indian people because I happen to know some nice Indian people, but obviously not all Indian people are nice).
2. You just brought this up from nowhere, but yes I would push back on people, but rather than a punishment like stadium bans, I rather see them having the option to do community service and interact with people of other races, because that is how you change hearts.
3. Yes, what's your point here?
4. Maybe so, but the point I was trying to make stands. This is a quote from Dianne Abbott wrote about travellers and Jews: "They undoubtedly experience prejudice. This is similar to racism and the two words are often used as if they are interchangeable. It is true that many types of white people with points of difference, such as redheads, can experience this prejudice, But they are not all their lives subject to racism." I would say that the abuse that red heads get is because British (English) society is deeply racist against Irish people, people don't like travellers because of their behaviour, but also that behaviour triggers racist responses, which we shouldn't accept.
If we are going to have an equal society, we have to not accept racism towards any race and that includes against white people too.
5. I don't pretend to know what's in that man's heart. What he said was racist, I don't know him, so I can't judge whether he is racist. I can see how an edgelord who is not racist might make that kind of edgy joke to trigger people, so I can see that he may also not be racist. |
Badenoch has been in the public eye for five minutes. Abbott has been there for decades.
Racism against people of colour tends to come from the right, which as somebody from the right I find embarrassing. So Badenoch will get far less racism being a Tory. |  |
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| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 18:00 - Mar 14 with 1130 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 15:45 - Mar 14 by ChorleyBoy |
Dale Vince would appear to many as one of such unscrupulous backers, but it's very complicated.
Vince has donated millions to the Labour Party and tens of thousands to Starmer himself.
The Jerusalem Post says that "Green energy industrialist Dale Vince has been using his English soccer club (Forest Green) as a means to promote his anti-Israel agenda and calls him an anti-Zionist:
Who is Dale Vince, the anti-Zionist owner of the 'world's greenest football club'?
https://www.jpost.com/bds-threat/article-705168
Despite the JP identifying Vince as an anti-Zionist with an anti Israel agenda it holds short of accusing him of antisemitism. I guess that's why the Labour Party Keir Starmer is happy to take Vince's donations because he's not antisemitic.
Or is he? There are some contributors to this forum who insist that although you can be critical of Israel without being antisemitic, anti-Zionism is a form of antisemitism. Benjamin Netanyahu also says that anti-Zionism is a form of antisemitism, but it seems he's cool with Labour Friends of Israel member Starmer taking donations from people he deems antisemitic.
It's very complicated isn't it?
I mean antisemitism is a form of racism and I don't think a Labour leader could really be a Friend of Israel if you're taking money from someone who the leader of Israel says is an antisemite.
It seems to me that there are lots of people benefitting from the confusion. Some Zionists are antisemites and other are not - it seems to depend on whether they support (tacitly or otherwise) the occupation of Palestine or not.
But it's more complicated than that. Starmer claims to be a friend to Palestinians too. You can't make this stuff up:
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/labour-israel-keir-starmer-palestine-b19601
It seems Starmer has a lot of friends, even ones who hate each other! But it appears the Palestinians are not very impressed with Keir's proclaimed friendship because it's little more than lip service and Israel is quite calm about the Labour Party having a sizeable anti-Zionist donor.
It seems to me like these politicians don't really take racism seriously at all but use it as a political tool which they can beat people with selectively as and when they choose to.
The evidence is clear.
Edited to add emphasis [Post edited 14 Mar 15:50]
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That's a lot of words to explain that you don't really understand what you are talking about. I've read it three times and am still none the wiser what point you are trying to make. | |
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| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 18:10 - Mar 14 with 1094 views | MattinLondon |
| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 14:52 - Mar 14 by Europablue |
I'm going to ignore your childish insults and try and respond without lowering the tone of the discussion. I guess I shouldn't engage at all, but I will against my better judgment.
I don't know anything about that Tory donor. I'm not interested enough to look into it, I will accept your appraisal of him, although I doubt you know enough about him to know what he feels in his heart.
Mentioning 4D chess was a joke, because that is what Trump supporters often say when he does something dumb that upsets his opposition into overacting and making a bad move. I accept that the tone was not obvious about what I said. The way you react uncharitably to my comments says something about you. I don't have any malice against people on the internet, I just try and remember that I could be talking to a 13 year old boy who is just trying to troll me. Getting angry is what those kind of trolls want.
I'm not denying that for some people Dianne Abbott's race is a contributing factor for the abuse, but the trigger is what she says then wrongly race becomes a factor of that abuse. I am sure that she gets horrific racial abuse and whilst I have experienced quite significant racial abuse, I didn't grow up having to deal with that. It is very damaging to suffer racial abuse while you are still building up your sense of self. Kemi Badenoch is also a black MP and she isn't the most abused MP. If race were the only factor they would get equal abuse.
With the internet and society in general, you can't judge the majority by the actions of a few extreme people.
1. I kind of agree with in that I believe clumsy words do not make you racist, it is the racist intent and hatred in your heart. However, not all people hold the same view of what racism is. There are some people who say that all white people are inherently racist (that is a racist comment in of itself). Everyone is discriminatory even if it's in a positive way (for example, I have a positive view of Indian people because I happen to know some nice Indian people, but obviously not all Indian people are nice).
2. You just brought this up from nowhere, but yes I would push back on people, but rather than a punishment like stadium bans, I rather see them having the option to do community service and interact with people of other races, because that is how you change hearts.
3. Yes, what's your point here?
4. Maybe so, but the point I was trying to make stands. This is a quote from Dianne Abbott wrote about travellers and Jews: "They undoubtedly experience prejudice. This is similar to racism and the two words are often used as if they are interchangeable. It is true that many types of white people with points of difference, such as redheads, can experience this prejudice, But they are not all their lives subject to racism." I would say that the abuse that red heads get is because British (English) society is deeply racist against Irish people, people don't like travellers because of their behaviour, but also that behaviour triggers racist responses, which we shouldn't accept.
If we are going to have an equal society, we have to not accept racism towards any race and that includes against white people too.
5. I don't pretend to know what's in that man's heart. What he said was racist, I don't know him, so I can't judge whether he is racist. I can see how an edgelord who is not racist might make that kind of edgy joke to trigger people, so I can see that he may also not be racist. |
Firstly apologies - my reply might well be a bit all-over-the-place and not replying to your arguments in the order that you wrote - if you want clarification let me know.
Being honest I don’t particularly care what’s in his heart as his comments were racist and unapologetically so - his follow-up stating that she should be shot was advocating violence- well that should be a matter for the police.
Racism happens against every race - yes I will go along with that. But in western society I will guess that at least 99% of all violent or abusive incidences happen against non-white and non Christian groups. Not dismissing racism against white people but it doesn’t happen to the same scale and isn’t anywhere near to being as problematic.
People have different ideas of what racism is? Really? I think you’re allowing ignorance to be an excuse. Racism is actions that discriminate against other actions. full stop.
In terms of stadium bans - this isn’t the 1970s or 80s, people know what they are doing is wrong. You mentioned Community work but that’s a cop out. It will be seen by them as an easy form of punishment. Five year ban for the first offence. Second offence, life ban from all football stadiums.
What Dianne Abbott wrote about Jewish people etc was wrong and she was condemned for it. For clarity she was totally in the wrong.
‘people don't like travellers because of their behaviour, but also that behaviour triggers racist responses’. You’re lumping all travellers together - maybe that’s your prejudices coming out.
To conclude, I don’t care what was in his heart - it was a violent racist comment and the Tories, to their shame, are keeping the dosh because they know that their will always be apologists out there who will defend him. |  | | |
| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 18:11 - Mar 14 with 1092 views | lowhouseblue |
| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 18:00 - Mar 14 by GlasgowBlue |
That's a lot of words to explain that you don't really understand what you are talking about. I've read it three times and am still none the wiser what point you are trying to make. |
i guess he's hoping that if he can create enough confusion and misunderstanding about the meaning of anti-semitism it makes it easier to claim that it's all made up, or, using the phrase without which the site feels incomplete, 'has been weaponised'. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 18:16 - Mar 14 with 1067 views | MattinLondon |
| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 18:00 - Mar 14 by GlasgowBlue |
That's a lot of words to explain that you don't really understand what you are talking about. I've read it three times and am still none the wiser what point you are trying to make. |
You know what GB, I don’t usually drink during the week but I think I’m going to have a couple of beers tonight. For utter f**ks sake. | | | |
| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 18:27 - Mar 14 with 1026 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 18:16 - Mar 14 by MattinLondon |
You know what GB, I don’t usually drink during the week but I think I’m going to have a couple of beers tonight. For utter f**ks sake. |
I don't blame you mate. Have one for me. | |
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| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 18:32 - Mar 14 with 1015 views | MattinLondon |
| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 18:27 - Mar 14 by GlasgowBlue |
I don't blame you mate. Have one for me. |
Cheers. I’ll be having ‘Fosters’. | | | |
| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 18:38 - Mar 14 with 1004 views | bluelagos |
| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 18:32 - Mar 14 by MattinLondon |
Cheers. I’ll be having ‘Fosters’. |
And you were doing so well on this thread!
Enjoy - even if your choice of tipple is highly dubious ;-) |  |
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| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 18:46 - Mar 14 with 981 views | MattinLondon |
| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 18:38 - Mar 14 by bluelagos |
And you were doing so well on this thread!
Enjoy - even if your choice of tipple is highly dubious ;-) |
I’ll probably have a slice of cake with it - hopefully there’s some battenberg in the cupboard. | | | |
| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 19:00 - Mar 14 with 948 views | eireblue |
| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 18:00 - Mar 14 by GlasgowBlue |
That's a lot of words to explain that you don't really understand what you are talking about. I've read it three times and am still none the wiser what point you are trying to make. |
I think we should be sympathetic with ChorleyBoy, he is trying to say something, but constrained by having to jump in on other threads and use the context of the original topic and wedge something in.
If only Chorley could find the button labelled “New Thread” that helps people start a…..well…..new thread….then using context and words of ChorleyBoy’s choosing we could see the point being made. [Post edited 14 Mar 19:21]
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| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 19:18 - Mar 14 with 913 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 18:32 - Mar 14 by MattinLondon |
Cheers. I’ll be having ‘Fosters’. |
Downvoted for choice of beer. | |
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| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 19:32 - Mar 14 with 873 views | Mullet |
| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 08:54 - Mar 14 by DJR |
Starmer has been rather spineless, though, in brushing under the carpet the Forde Report which looked into racism, Islamophobia and sexism within the Party. That spinelessness is obviously driven by the fact that the officials involved support Starmer.
Diane Abbott has a column in today's Guardian which indicates the part of the report which dealt with her.
"But sadly, racism in politics is not just a matter for any one political party. In 2022, the Forde Report – commissioned by Keir Starmer – into allegations of racism, sexism and bullying in the Labour party was finally published. Martin Forde himself is a distinguished King’s counsel. His report set out how abusive senior Labour party officials were about me in their WhatsApp groups. Among other things, they said that “[Diane Abbott] literally makes me sick” and that I was “truly repulsive”.
The report went on to point out that the criticisms of me by these senior Labour staff were “not simply a harsh response to perceived poor performance – they are expressions of visceral disgust, drawing (consciously or otherwise) on racist tropes, and they bear little resemblance to the criticisms of white male MPs elsewhere in the messages”. They did not actually call for me to be shot but the tenor was not dissimilar to what Hester said. However, to this day none of the individuals concerned have apologised to me, and the Labour party has not apologised to me personally."
And this from a Guardian article last year indicates that the Party hadn't even contact Forde to discuss his recommendations.
"Forde expressed shock that no one from Labour had engaged with him after he published the report to discuss his recommendations further. “I had limited communications with David Evans [the party’s] general secretary but that was about general housekeeping. I have spoken to a caucus of black Labour MPs in the Commons,” he said, but otherwise claimed he had not spoken to any party officials. “These are serious debates that need to be had in a respectful context and I just feel there’s work to be done.”
The former shadow chancellor John McDonnell said the “vast majority” of Labour members would find Forde’s accusations “deeply worrying and will want a serious response from all those holding leading positions in the party”.
Kate Osamor, a former shadow minister, added: “The Forde report was a call to action. It must not be ignored. Unless something changes, the party risks becoming a hostile environment for black and ethnic minority members.” [Post edited 14 Mar 12:05]
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Sorry, I've only just attempted to tackle this given the "spirited" turn this thread took. I'll bow to your knowledge on the Forde report as I've not read it.
I would ask though, is this not a typical Starmer tactic? If he broaches this now, does he not needlessly drag the election run in to racism vs racism wars and diminishes the damage the Tories are doing to themselves?
I'm not saying that's moral, or something I support, but is it not his usual MO to give the extremists on both sides silence when there's a chance whatever he says will become a narrative he can't control?
Whilst the abuse of Abbott is appalling, does it not become objectified and meaningless if he plays political football here? She does after all have loyalties with Corbyn more than him does she not?
It does feel like he's realising he's going to inherit something akin to what Atlee did and he wants as much focus on the people leaving it this way as possible? |  |
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| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 19:32 - Mar 14 with 872 views | Whos_blue |
| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 19:18 - Mar 14 by GlasgowBlue |
Downvoted for choice of beer. |
Fosters?
Beer?
That's being generous glassers. |  |
| Distortion becomes somehow pure in its wildness. |
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| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 19:37 - Mar 14 with 861 views | BlueBoots |
| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 12:58 - Mar 14 by Europablue |
I guess we know what kind of person you are: a weasel who tries to insinuate things about the character of other people.
Do you know the concept of 4D chess? The clever part is not the racist comment, it's predicting the reaction and saying the racist thing even if you don't believe it, in a Machiavellian way.
Anyway, clever doesn't mean good.
You have to ask why is Dianne Abbott the most abused MP in Parliament, and the answer is not just her race, there are other black women in Parliament, after all. She could well be the biggest moron in the whole of Parliament (I don't follow closely enough to know for sure).
A lot of uneducated people will be selectively racist. For example, they wouldn't say something racist about a black player on their favourite football team, but they might say something about the black player that just scored against their team. Those people have to reevaluate their thinking, but I don't want our society to dogpile on them and not do anything to change their mind.
Race is such a touchy subject, but racism is just a form of mental association. If you only encounter inbred and dumb Norwich supporters, you will have the impression that all Norwich supporters are inbred and dumb.
If he said that Liz Truss is so awful that it makes you want to hate all Norwich supporters, you might even laugh. So whilst I don't think it was wise for the donor to make that comment, I can see that he might have just been trying to be funny and obviously, it has blown up in his face. |
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| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 21:51 - Mar 14 with 771 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 11:20 - Mar 14 by Europablue |
What he said is racist, but it was also kind of a joke without racist intent. He's basically saying that Dianne Abbot is so bad that it makes him wish he were racist (which is a bad thing).
Do we really need this kind of reaction? Can't we just say you can't say that kind of thing and not apologize, so just apologize and try not to say anything stupid in the future? |
His actual phrase was "I try not to be racist or misogynistic but ..."
If I start my reply to you, "I will try to be kind to you but ..." what would you expect to follow? Unadulterated unkindness without any attempt to moderate it, wouldn't you?
If you are ever tempted to start a comment with "I try to ... but ...", don't bother with the start of the sentence, think about what you are then actually saying and decide whether you really want to say that!
What sort of person has to "try not to be racist or misogynistic"? If I have to try not to be nasty in my reply to you, it is because by nature I am nasty. |  |
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| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 23:06 - Mar 14 with 724 views | DJR |
| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 19:32 - Mar 14 by Mullet |
Sorry, I've only just attempted to tackle this given the "spirited" turn this thread took. I'll bow to your knowledge on the Forde report as I've not read it.
I would ask though, is this not a typical Starmer tactic? If he broaches this now, does he not needlessly drag the election run in to racism vs racism wars and diminishes the damage the Tories are doing to themselves?
I'm not saying that's moral, or something I support, but is it not his usual MO to give the extremists on both sides silence when there's a chance whatever he says will become a narrative he can't control?
Whilst the abuse of Abbott is appalling, does it not become objectified and meaningless if he plays political football here? She does after all have loyalties with Corbyn more than him does she not?
It does feel like he's realising he's going to inherit something akin to what Atlee did and he wants as much focus on the people leaving it this way as possible? |
I won't bore you with the ins and outs of the Forde Report, which is probably a specialist subject for those with a particular interest in the Labour Party, suffice to say that its lack of acknowledgement and implementation by the leadership is a source of concern especially for black and Muslim members of the party, as the following indicates.
https://www.voice-online.co.uk/opinion/comment/2022/07/25/dawn-butler-labour-nee |  | | |
| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 23:17 - Mar 14 with 706 views | Europablue |
| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 15:08 - Mar 14 by BlueBadger |
What is it you like best best about the Tories, the bigotry the incompetence, the corruption or the criminality? |
I'm not a big fan of the Tories, but I do believe that they will drive us slower along the road to ruin than Labour will. If you care about bigotry, the Labour Party look worse for that.
Perhaps we need a Labour win to cause a shake up of the Conservative party. It would be nice if they were actually trying to conserve things. Maybe we rather need a reformation party. |  | | |
| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 23:19 - Mar 14 with 696 views | Europablue |
| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 15:15 - Mar 14 by redrickstuhaart |
The suggestions that redheads get grief because English people are racist towards the irish are two of the most stupid things i have ever read on here. |
Tell me your alternate theory then, because that seems pretty obvious to me. In general English culture was very bigoted against the Irish when I was growing up in the 80s and 90s. | | | |
| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 23:23 - Mar 14 with 691 views | Aviator |
These comments were made five years before he donated the money and were not known about until recently. You can hardly expect the Tory party to return the £10m which was accepted in good faith. The PM has condemned the comments. I’m not sure what more people expect. Tory party is the most diverse of all the parliamentary parties. It seems that the opposition parties are the ones playing the ‘race card’ here. | | | |
| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 23:23 - Mar 14 with 691 views | Europablue |
This forum does seem to lean towards the condecending left, at least for the people who post here. I honestly don't know what reality people are living in if they think that either of the main parties and leaders are fit to lead. It seems to mirror the US in that only usless people can gain power. | | | |
| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 23:38 - Mar 14 with 647 views | StokieBlue |
| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 23:23 - Mar 14 by Europablue |
This forum does seem to lean towards the condecending left, at least for the people who post here. I honestly don't know what reality people are living in if they think that either of the main parties and leaders are fit to lead. It seems to mirror the US in that only usless people can gain power. |
Given you were championing the utter weapon that is Desantis I'm not sure you are really looking to change the fact that useless people get into power.
SB |  |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 23:46 - Mar 14 with 632 views | Whos_blue |
| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 23:23 - Mar 14 by Europablue |
This forum does seem to lean towards the condecending left, at least for the people who post here. I honestly don't know what reality people are living in if they think that either of the main parties and leaders are fit to lead. It seems to mirror the US in that only usless people can gain power. |
OK. You've lost me now.
My politics have always been manifestly from the left, but I don't think I've ever been condescending to any other poster here and I don't care for the insinuation that I am.
Whilst some posters, both left and right, may push their point more forcefully than others, to label a whole political ideal as condescending is wholly wrong.
I think I'm right that a couple board right wingers have also called you out too.
I haven't agreed with much of what you've said, but I generally admire posters who hold a different view and stick to their point.
I'm afraid your lazy assertion that the left here are typically condescending is a step too far for me. | |
| Distortion becomes somehow pure in its wildness. |
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| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 23:53 - Mar 14 with 616 views | Europablue |
| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 18:10 - Mar 14 by MattinLondon |
Firstly apologies - my reply might well be a bit all-over-the-place and not replying to your arguments in the order that you wrote - if you want clarification let me know.
Being honest I don’t particularly care what’s in his heart as his comments were racist and unapologetically so - his follow-up stating that she should be shot was advocating violence- well that should be a matter for the police.
Racism happens against every race - yes I will go along with that. But in western society I will guess that at least 99% of all violent or abusive incidences happen against non-white and non Christian groups. Not dismissing racism against white people but it doesn’t happen to the same scale and isn’t anywhere near to being as problematic.
People have different ideas of what racism is? Really? I think you’re allowing ignorance to be an excuse. Racism is actions that discriminate against other actions. full stop.
In terms of stadium bans - this isn’t the 1970s or 80s, people know what they are doing is wrong. You mentioned Community work but that’s a cop out. It will be seen by them as an easy form of punishment. Five year ban for the first offence. Second offence, life ban from all football stadiums.
What Dianne Abbott wrote about Jewish people etc was wrong and she was condemned for it. For clarity she was totally in the wrong.
‘people don't like travellers because of their behaviour, but also that behaviour triggers racist responses’. You’re lumping all travellers together - maybe that’s your prejudices coming out.
To conclude, I don’t care what was in his heart - it was a violent racist comment and the Tories, to their shame, are keeping the dosh because they know that their will always be apologists out there who will defend him. |
Thank you for engaging respectfully on my comments.
We might be talking across things said by various people. I was talking about whether a person is racist and that is based on intent, not how we recieve the comments. To be clear, I don't think the initial comment was acceptable to say, but he should have been forgiven if he just apologized. His reaction was deplorable, but he wasn't advocating violence. "should be shot for that" is always meant as an exaggeration and no-one using that phrase is genuinely advocating actual violence. Unless he is telling people to physical harm Diane Abbott, it is not a police matter.
Racism against white people is more problematic on many levels. It seems socially acceptable to say racist things against white people. Our education system discriminates against white working class boys. The other big problem is that it increases racial tensions for white people to feel like they are prosecuted for racial abuse, but not protected from it. It would be understandable for people to resent that. In Western countries, historically absolutely, racism against non-white people has been worse in both intensity and frequency and in that it was institutional.
Look up critical race theory. See if you agree with those concepts. There are people who believe that you can't be racist against white people. So yes, people absolutely have different ideas about what racism is. It should be clear that it discrimination based on race, i.e. it applies to discrimination against any race including white people.
I don't agree entirely with what Diane Abbott said about Jewish people, but I prefer to have that kind of discussion out in the open rather than allowing resentment to fester. It is a valid question to ask why Jews are classified based on race as well as faith. It is also important to discuss where the majority of anti-semitism comes from and that is from far-left people and often followers of Islam. I truly believe that if we want equally between races we have to treat people the same regardless of race, so we cannot privelege races even if they are in the minority.
About travellers I meant more along the lines of people who say they don't like travellers are lumping them all together.
I think that we should keep in mind that racism is an extention of the natural bias against outgroups. By living in a multiracial but monocultural society we would not have outgroups based on race or ethnicity. Integration and free expression are the ways to really minimise racism. | | | |
| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 00:04 - Mar 15 with 591 views | Europablue |
| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 23:46 - Mar 14 by Whos_blue |
OK. You've lost me now.
My politics have always been manifestly from the left, but I don't think I've ever been condescending to any other poster here and I don't care for the insinuation that I am.
Whilst some posters, both left and right, may push their point more forcefully than others, to label a whole political ideal as condescending is wholly wrong.
I think I'm right that a couple board right wingers have also called you out too.
I haven't agreed with much of what you've said, but I generally admire posters who hold a different view and stick to their point.
I'm afraid your lazy assertion that the left here are typically condescending is a step too far for me. |
I didn't mean you personally, I'm sorry if you took it that way. I wasn't even talking about all left wing people being condescending. In general I find that left-leaning people tend to believe that they are right and couldn't possibly be wrong. In contrast, I believe that I'm right, but I'm open to the possibility that I am wrong or misguided. I would link that to idea about fences (Chesterton’s Fence), where the inclination of a right-leaning person is that a fence (read rule or custom) is probably there for a reason and should only be altered after very careful thought. The inclination for the left-leaning person is to take down the fence, unless there is a good reason to leave it there. | | | |
| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 00:15 - Mar 15 with 572 views | Whos_blue |
| Yeah it was racist and misogynistic….but they want his money, so let’s move on 23:53 - Mar 14 by Europablue |
Thank you for engaging respectfully on my comments.
We might be talking across things said by various people. I was talking about whether a person is racist and that is based on intent, not how we recieve the comments. To be clear, I don't think the initial comment was acceptable to say, but he should have been forgiven if he just apologized. His reaction was deplorable, but he wasn't advocating violence. "should be shot for that" is always meant as an exaggeration and no-one using that phrase is genuinely advocating actual violence. Unless he is telling people to physical harm Diane Abbott, it is not a police matter.
Racism against white people is more problematic on many levels. It seems socially acceptable to say racist things against white people. Our education system discriminates against white working class boys. The other big problem is that it increases racial tensions for white people to feel like they are prosecuted for racial abuse, but not protected from it. It would be understandable for people to resent that. In Western countries, historically absolutely, racism against non-white people has been worse in both intensity and frequency and in that it was institutional.
Look up critical race theory. See if you agree with those concepts. There are people who believe that you can't be racist against white people. So yes, people absolutely have different ideas about what racism is. It should be clear that it discrimination based on race, i.e. it applies to discrimination against any race including white people.
I don't agree entirely with what Diane Abbott said about Jewish people, but I prefer to have that kind of discussion out in the open rather than allowing resentment to fester. It is a valid question to ask why Jews are classified based on race as well as faith. It is also important to discuss where the majority of anti-semitism comes from and that is from far-left people and often followers of Islam. I truly believe that if we want equally between races we have to treat people the same regardless of race, so we cannot privelege races even if they are in the minority.
About travellers I meant more along the lines of people who say they don't like travellers are lumping them all together.
I think that we should keep in mind that racism is an extention of the natural bias against outgroups. By living in a multiracial but monocultural society we would not have outgroups based on race or ethnicity. Integration and free expression are the ways to really minimise racism. |
Whilst downplaying the shooting comments, we seem to have paid no attention to the thoughts of Diane Abbott, who ultimately was the recipient of the disgusting comments.
BBC News - Diane Abbott calls Tory donor's comments frightening
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-68542624
I was also interested in the statement regarding racism towards white people, particularly how our education system discriminates against white working class boys. I genuinely don't understand the data set you are using to underpin your statement.
I have a loose knowledge of the education system and it is broadly acknowledged that young afro carribean boys tend to fair less well educationally as a demographic.
You write as if you're quite well researched, so I'm genuinely interested to understand how you've arrived at these positions? | |
| Distortion becomes somehow pure in its wildness. |
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