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Comment | Speculation on Keane\'s Future Grows
at 21:28:02
Also, I have to say that I'm REALLY sorry to anyone not involved in my little squabble with Yorkshire about that ridiculously long, boring, and depressing post. I'm normally a nice, happy person. Honest. |
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Comment | Speculation on Keane\'s Future Grows
at 20:23:59
OK then, fine Yorkshire. I will prove the comments about being way over budget, seeing as how I'm talking to someone who not only can't add and subtract, but who seems to have a goldfish memory and can't recall who's been transferred in and out of the club for the past two and a half seasons, and also seems totally incapable of using google to find the answer himself.
When Evans took oer the club he invested £44 million (£32 million of which was to cover the club's debts. Of course the club is still technically in debt, just to Evans in stead of the bank, but that's for a different discussion). Thus meaning that £12 million was put into investing in the squad.
Now since the takeover, we have had a transfer deficit of £13.3
If you want a source for that then go here http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/en/verein/677/ipswich-town/transfers/alle.html.
Now which number is bigger? The £12 million originally put into the club or the £13.3 million spent on transfers? Now also bear in mind that this is JUST TRANSFERS. You also have to pay these players money and some of them demand to be given quite a lot of it, particulary those who were signed from Premiership clubs who are used to being paid premiership wages. With the wages at the level they are at currently, Evans has to keep pumping money into the club EVEN IF WE DON'T SIGN ANY NEW PLAYERS. Even BEFORE Keane made his signings, the club was operating at a £10 million loss for the previous year -with 'only' £6.3 million being down to Jim's signings, meaning that £4 million is bleeding out of the club per year, a figure that is no doubt much higher now that Keane has signed premiership players. Have a look at this:
http://www.eveningstar.co.uk/content/eveningstar/news/story.aspx?brand=ESTOnline
Add to this the fact that corporate hospitality (Evans' company's sector) took a pretty big hit in the recession, and you have to come to the realisation that he probably doesn't want to continue spending big every transfer window and would probably prefer to slash the wage bill considerably so he doesn't have to keep putting even more cash into the club.
So, do you still think I'm just making up the fact that we're over our budget? Do people seriously still believe that the magical money fairy will come wave his wand and conjur up £millions more to finance another total overhaul of the team?
No. You're living in a fantasy world.
If you want to show faith with the manager (and there's nothing particularly wrong with that in its own right) then you're essentially either saying that THIS team AS IT IS RIGHT NOW (maybe with one or two cheap signings) HAS to be good enough to go up next year (not to get close, close doesn't pay the bills. We need promotion). OR you're saying that Keane is the right man to work at building a financially viable team from scratch after the money men force us to cut our losses on this 'project' and sell all the high-earning players that we can't afford. Now Keane MIGHT be the right man for this. Who's to say? My point was that this level of spending simply cannot continue and that everybody needs to get a much better sense of perspective.
Incidently, my season ticket renewal for is filled out and sent in already. So no matter how gloomy that huge wall of text must seem, I will remain a supporter through thick and thin. COYB. |
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Comment | Speculation on Keane\'s Future Grows
at 20:23:59
OK then, fine Yorkshire. I will prove the comments about being way over budget, seeing as how I'm talking to someone who not only can't add and subtract, but who seems to have a goldfish memory and can't recall who's been transferred in and out of the club for the past two and a half seasons, and also seems totally incapable of using google to find the answer himself.
When Evans took oer the club he invested £44 million (£32 million of which was to cover the club's debts. Of course the club is still technically in debt, just to Evans in stead of the bank, but that's for a different discussion). Thus meaning that £12 million was put into investing in the squad.
Now since the takeover, we have had a transfer deficit of £13.3
If you want a source for that then go here http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/en/verein/677/ipswich-town/transfers/alle.html.
Now which number is bigger? The £12 million originally put into the club or the £13.3 million spent on transfers? Now also bear in mind that this is JUST TRANSFERS. You also have to pay these players money and some of them demand to be given quite a lot of it, particulary those who were signed from Premiership clubs who are used to being paid premiership wages. With the wages at the level they are at currently, Evans has to keep pumping money into the club EVEN IF WE DON'T SIGN ANY NEW PLAYERS. Even BEFORE Keane made his signings, the club was operating at a £10 million loss for the previous year -with 'only' £6.3 million being down to Jim's signings, meaning that £4 million is bleeding out of the club per year, a figure that is no doubt much higher now that Keane has signed premiership players. Have a look at this:
http://www.eveningstar.co.uk/content/eveningstar/news/story.aspx?brand=ESTOnline
Add to this the fact that corporate hospitality (Evans' company's sector) took a pretty big hit in the recession, and you have to come to the realisation that he probably doesn't want to continue spending big every transfer window and would probably prefer to slash the wage bill considerably so he doesn't have to keep putting even more cash into the club.
So, do you still think I'm just making up the fact that we're over our budget? Do people seriously still believe that the magical money fairy will come wave his wand and conjur up £millions more to finance another total overhaul of the team?
No. You're living in a fantasy world.
If you want to show faith with the manager (and there's nothing particularly wrong with that in its own right) then you're essentially either saying that THIS team AS IT IS RIGHT NOW (maybe with one or two cheap signings) HAS to be good enough to go up next year (not to get close, close doesn't pay the bills. We need promotion). OR you're saying that Keane is the right man to work at building a financially viable team from scratch after the money men force us to cut our losses on this 'project' and sell all the high-earning players that we can't afford. Now Keane MIGHT be the right man for this. Who's to say? My point was that this level of spending simply cannot continue and that everybody needs to get a much better sense of perspective.
Incidently, my season ticket renewal for is filled out and sent in already. So no matter how gloomy that huge wall of text must seem, I will remain a supporter through thick and thin. COYB. |
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Comment | Speculation on Keane\'s Future Grows
at 15:38:25
Look, at no point in my post did I call for his head.
If he showed the perspective I was talking about and wanted to actually build a team slowly rather than just chucking money around then I would be perfectly happy with where we are this season. I would be perfectly patient with him as long as he stayed within budget and set REALISTIC targets for himself rather than shooting his mouth off about instant promotion. And as it is, there is little evidence that we are heading for promotion next season, which is what we need for this spending to pay off.
Secondly, it is VERY easy to see we are over budget, but maybe that's because I paid attention in primary school maths classes and have a basic understanding of how to add and subtract numbers from each other. Just look at how much we've spent compared to how much Evans said we would be putting into the club. Look at the transfer fees and the wages of our top earners. Now look at our attendances and money in from transfer fees. It doesn't add up does it. Even if we don't spend any money at all in transfers over the summer, the high wages alone will continue to bleed this club dry. This is not speculation, it's simple economics, and it's all information that can be obtained with a simple google search.
If the club was run on anything approaching a sound financial basis, where promotion wasn't an absolute necessity just to make ends meet, then I would be fine with giving a manager as many years as is necessary to build a long-term project for promotion over eight years like Curbishley or even longer than that, as long as there are signs of progress. It's Keane who has shown the most impatience in this situation, not the fans. |
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Comment | Speculation on Keane\'s Future Grows
at 14:48:40
Yorkshire, I feel your comments about Keane being given a chance to build a team ready for promotion over a long time period like Curbishley did are a little misguided. The reason Curbishley managed to do so (after taking eight years) and why there were no "idiots" calling for his head is because he spent virtually NO MONEY in doing so. It's all well and good saying that Keane needs time to build his squad, but he was hired with the explicit intention that he would get us into the premiership by the time his two year contract was up, and that's how he's approached management at this club.
This is NOT just a case of idiot fans being impatient, it's a simple case of finance. This was NOT intended as a long-term 'project', it was a full-blooded charge for promotion. And the money that we've spent (and continue to do so on wages) means that the club will be utter RUINED if we can't get promotion VERY SOON. We can't give him time to continue to build this squad. We don't HAVE time. The "kid in a candy shop" spending habits of Jim and Keane have ensured that. This club is absolutely haemorrhaging money (having gone waaaaaaay over Evans' allocated budget) and there is only two ways that is going to stop. 1) We get promoted next season. Or 2) We sell EVERY top earning player that we can't afford, scrap this doomed 'project' and build a financially viable long-term project from scratch with some sense of friggin' perspective. Under these circumstances I (and probably many more Town fans as well) would be more than happy to let the manager have a lot more time to build a squad over many seasons. But you can't afford to give patience under the current circumstances. Keane has brought that on himself, even more so than Jim did. That kind of spending only pays off when it yields IMMEDIATE results. We can't be expected to show patience if the people running the club don't show any. It just doesn't work that way. |
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Comment | Keane Set to Ring Changes for Barnsley Clash
at 18:25:35
Roy Keane himself is actually very willing to admit he makes mistakes (hence why his programme notes are always such an interesting read). In fact, he's probably a hell of a lot more critical of himself than a lot of pro-Keane fans on this site are.
If he's willing to admit it himself, why does everyone else who points out his mistakes instantly have to be called a norwich fan or told to "go look up what support means" (a phrase that I firmly believe should be banned outright on this message board, along with the 'clever' use of 'supporters' in 'inverted commas')?
Of course, in the ideal world of the fingers-in-ears brigade, the only people who would be allowed to attend games would be those who have never said anything negative about the manager ever. And the club would ideally be run as a sort of nightmarish Orwelian distopia in which the thought police read our minds for any negativity and systematically eliminate anyone who has an independant thought because they're obviously not REAL fans.
Actually, I think attending games and cheering on your team even when you disagree with how it's being run probably makes you even MORE of a fan than if you just blindly accept every decision they ever make.
So... Yeah... COYB. Will be there cheering them on as usual (as I know full well what 'support' means, thank you very much). And I look forward to a win and the return of the "playoffs here we come!" and "where are the moaners NOW?!" mentality. |
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Comment | Keane Happy With Strike Options
at 17:42:09
Translation:
"I've spent a lot of money and have been told to cut back. Unfortunately I don't have a bottomless pit full of money to delve into to solve all our problems. Healy and Murphy are great players but are expensive loans. I will also have to play them every week to justify signing them, which means anyone currently at the club is automatically available for a transfer for any amount to anyone who's interested as we desperately need to lower the club's astronomically high wage bill. Stead happened to be the only striker other clubs were interested in so out he goes. He knows he won't get a look in here so decides to move into temporary accomodation away from his home despite having a heavily pregnant wife. This was absolutely his own decision."
All the best Steady. I suppose whether we'll see you again might be down to whether a permanent deal for the new boys can be arranged. I wonder if they will up for staying with us past the end of the season? Would be great if Keane can convince them to stay, and can strike a relatively cheap deal for them. |
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Comment | Stead Loan Move Confirmed
at 17:17:57
"6 goals in 13 starts , not bad in my book"
The Coventry fan on here seems to be the only one looking at things objectively rather than just arbitrarily jumping for joy or shaking his head at every decision Keano makes.
That strike ratio would mean 21 goals if he starts every game in a season. Ladies and gentlemen, I give you that mythical "20 goal a season man" that everyone's always going on about. A bit unrealistic to extrapolate from so few games, I know, but on the other hand if he was playing more often in a settled team it's reasonable to expect that he might have an even better strike rate.
In a settled system he might have even overcome the "either brilliant or terrible" problem (although I always maintain having an attacking player capable of moments of brilliance is always preferable to a solid but boring performer, even if they're naff the rest of the time because matches can easily be won by single moments of inspiration)
Hopefully with Healy and Murphy here we won't miss him too much but other than that it seems a bit strange to let your top scorer go when you're struggling for goals. I guess I'm with the popular view that it's to lighten the wage bill. But whether or not it means someone else is coming in remains to be seen as Murphy and Healy can't be the cheapest loan deals themselves. I trust them to deliver the goods though. They HAVE to now or it's big trouble. |
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Comment | Keane Pleased With Stead
at 16:53:14
I'd just like to echo what Surco said about Stead and Garvan. I spent the most part of the early season trying to explain to people why we needed them in the team (and not on the transfer list being told they can leave if any offers came in like Keane had said) but people (mostly idiots) interpreted it as me obviously hating Keane, therefore obviously hating Ipswich, and obviously being a Norwich fan (or at least someone who needed to 'go look up what support means'). It was probably the most irritating time I've ever had supporting Ipswich.
But now we're winning games AND I'm being proved right. Happy times indeed.
Oh, and the Kings of Leon chant (Jon Stead is on Fire) just HAS to become a regular song at Portman Road. As well as ooh aah Lead-bit-taah (like the old Man Utd Cantona chant) for Grant Leadbitter. MAKE IT HAPPEN. |
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Comment | Keane Pleased With Stead
at 00:42:13
(to tune of Kings of Leon)
Whooooooooaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhh Jon Stead is on Fire.
Fantastic performance. Best bit of the game though was the ludicrously huge cheer when Wickham was brought on to replace Stern John. I mean, he's not THAT bad, but he is entirely surplus to requirements and he contributed very little today. I half expected the substitution announcement to go:
"Now coming off for Town, it's number 21 Stern John... Being replaced by... an inanimate plank of wood with a smiley face drawn on it" (hooray!)
Something tells me we won't be etending his loan. |
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Comment | Keane: Disallowed Goal Was Turning Point
at 00:16:11
Not a "Turning point" at all. Absolutely nothing happened before the disallowed goal and absolutely nothing happened after. Nothing turned at all. There's no such thing as a turning point in a goalless draw, surely?
Still, defence looked good again, and Lee-Barrett was impressive in goal (and not just in the patronising "oh well, he's doing his best in this bad situation" kind of impressive, as I had expected, but actually impressive). Garvan again had a good game. Difficult to actually see the point of Stern John today. His game consisted mostly of backing into people and falling over, not actually winning the aerial battles (which is the kind of striker I assumed we were looking for), and he missed a total sitter of a free header. Still, when nothing's going right up front I suppose you have to try different things. I hope he proves me wrong against Blackpool. |
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Comment | Keane Faces Selection Dilemmas for Sheffield Wednesday Clash
at 13:57:55
Based on his performance in our only win of the season so far, I have to find it a bit confusing that Pablo probably won't be playing. He totally ran the game andhis back to goal play is just the link between midfield and attack that we need. Plus his presence usually makes it more likely that we play the ball to feet rather than hoof it (because we all know he can't head it) which means the team as a whole play more attractive football, and now that he runs around a lot more under Keane he looks more dangerous than ever. Plus he's the only member of the squad to have a decent song (although I would suggest using the old Man Utd Cantona song for Leadbitter, i.e. Ooh Aah Lead-Bit-Tah)
Good to see Garvan being considered though. And I would like to see Priskin given a chance to justify the large price tag. He strikes me as the sort of player who needs quite a long run of games to reach a decent level of sharpness but who would be excellent once he gets there (which is why I think it's a bit odd that 'chop and change' Keano bothered signing him, same with Martin). As for Connor, not sure what the best option is. Should we 'hide' him away from the interests of the larger teams or resign ourselves to the fact that he'll probably leave and play him as much as possible to drive up the fee when the inevitable happens. Tough choice. Interesting to see what happens. Over to you Keano. |
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Comment | Keane: Further Moves Possible Before Deadline
at 13:36:23
Gio and Dyer? Yeah, we'd all love to see that. Could it realistically happen? It seems a bit like wishful thinking and if it's true that they're injured then obviously that's all these rumours will ever amount to. But agree with loaning that type of player, someone who can make things happen, and who is definitely better than what we have at the moment. Loaning another player of similar quality to those already here makes little sense as the squad are having enough problems learning to play together as it is (with all the new signings AND the team being changed every single week) and shaking things up any further would just be unnecessary. That is unless the loanee is a left midfielder who can actually use his left foot. That would be very welcome indeed.
"I know the qualities Owen has and sometimes I think we might need something different. He did himself no harm by playing well in the reserves the other day" Like this quote a lot. Hopefully it means that Garvan has stopped being a drama queen about this whole situation and started to get his head down and work to prove Keane wrong. Which would be fantastic for everyone. A Garvan with effort? The other teams won't know what hit them. Who knows, if he comes out of this stronger it might show that Keane's uncompromising man-mangement techniques are actually effective. I never saw that coming. |
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Comment | Wood Joins Coventry
at 16:15:48
That' a bit annoying. Thought he could have been a good addition. Oh well, I read that Jonny Evans' younger brother Corry is looking for a club to go out on loan to. If Keane wants another defender then this guy's an option (if he's as good as Jonny anyway) Surely he only needs to ask and Fergie will say yes?
http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11661_5702397,00.html |
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Comment | Wood Joins Coventry
at 12:12:55
The fact is that Roy Keane, with his massive reputation (both the good and bad points of it) is the sort of person who has the ability to attract many quality players (like bringing Djibril Cisse to Sunderland), but also to make many others run a mile in fear. So although the choice is ultimately up to Connor and out of Keane's hands, it would be ridiculous to think that having Roy Keane as a manager isn't going to be one of the key thoughts going through Connors mind as he weighs up his options. The thing is that at the moment his thoughts on Keano remain a mystery, so we don't know WHICH WAY it will sway his decision, we just know it will be an important factor.
Totall agree when you say it's time for him to put his arm around him and offer encouragement to get him to stay. In fact I'd like to see that kind of man-management in effect quite a lot more often on many players, rather than the one-dimensional, 'impress-me-or-else' authoritarian we've all come to know, because that attitude could almost force him out of the club, and for much less money than he's worth.
Also, with regards to the "dithering George Burley" comment and how surely it's better having a legend like Keano convincing you to stay, I feel I have to point out that Burley was in charge at Southampton for the breakthrough of their 'class of 2005', and successfully convinced Walcott to stay for an extra transfer window, resulting in a massively increased fee for when he was finally inevitably sold.
Agree with the comment that it might not all be about money but about placing his education in the hands of a manager like Wenger or Fergie. After all, Wayne Rooney actually took a pay cut to join United from Everton (where they tried to keep him by making him their highest paid player ever). He's on a lot more these days of course, but at the time it was less. |
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Comment | QPR Linked With Garvan Move
at 15:31:11
brogansnose, I do have to agree with you that in Jim's final season he was not at his best.
Nonetheless, he WAS our highest goal scoring and assisting midfielder and was again in the top three for fans' player of the season (which Richard Wright ended up winning, before we realised how stupid we had all been and decided that, yes, he's terrible as well) even though he was a bit in and out of the squad as Jim liked to shake things up almost as much as Keane does now. My point above was that he needs consistant games. Now he's not getting that here and he's being a bit of a crybaby about it so he probably will do better to move and further his career elsewhere.
As for Dobbie's claim that the media want Keane to fail, well, you may be half right there. HALF of the media want him to fail and will make up any old story to bring him down, but he has the other half eating out of his hands, much the same as on these boards. With such a polarising character, that's always going to happen. |
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Comment | Smith and McAuley Back for Wednesday Clash
at 15:10:05
Hmmm. Sorry, that last post didn't come out exactly as I intended.
What I meant was he has no problem with you AS LONG AS you pointlessly run around like an idiot AS WELL AS obviously being good players as well. They are both great players (as they should be for what they cost), I'm not debating that at all, but if they showed a bad attitude and stopped pointlessly running around like idiots, even for a second, then they would be dropped. Hence also why he hates Garvan, and why you see Pablo running around a lot more these days, and chasing down loads more lost causes than he used to (and it has definitely improved his game, no doubt about it).
Hope that clears things up a bit.
Geez, I posted it to point out the flaw in an anti-Keane post and to point out how some players DO want to play for him, not to say "Keane out" or he's an idiot or anything. Remember the days when you could say things without people accusing you of hating the club? |
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Comment | Smith and McAuley Back for Wednesday Clash
at 14:39:36
That's a bit harsh UEFA81. People do want to play for him. Edwards and Leadbitter liked it so much at Sunderland that they wanted to come to Ipswich to play for him all over again. What you mean is that nobody with a "bad attitude" who won't "give 110% each and every week" wants to play for him. There's no problem for players who keep their mouths shut and pointlessly run around like idiots. |
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Comment | Smith and McAuley Back for Wednesday Clash
at 14:22:52
Personally, I'd keep it as it has been. Bruce and Delaney might actually be on the verge of forming a proper defensive partnership (rather than the 'any two from the set' situation we've had up until now). At centre-back, consistency is key. You can't be confident as a defender unless you know who you're playing alongside very well - where's he's going to be, what he's going to do, how you can cover if he makes a mistake, etc.
Sometimes a settled pairing can even be more important than the individual quality of the players, hence why some of our better defensive performances last year came with Naylor partnering McAuley, even though Bruce is a much better player. It's because they had formed a consistent partnership.
Surely Keane will keep things as they are (well, until one of them makes a shocking error, then we'll be back to defensive musical chairs again). Bruce and Delaney all the way for me (until we sign Wood from Shef Wed anyway). |
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