| Alf's 5 forwards 22:36 - Jul 16 with 1499 views | flykickingbybgunn |
There was a short discussion on here a little while ago concerning an early Port Vale v Town programme.
There were comments concerning the surprise that we played with 5 forwards.
Prior to the '60's professional football teams in this country played with a system that is not seen today.
All teams had two wingers who were forbidden to go back over the half way line. The other forwards were a centre forward and two inside forwards who lined up either side of him.
These were counteracted by two full backs, who were also told not to go over the half way line, to take out the wingers. A centre half to challenge the centre forward and two half backs dealing with the inside forwards.
The system was, one team gets the ball and hoofs it out to the wing or the attack.
The winger runs flat out to the goal line where he crosses to the centre forward who either scores or knocks it down to the inside forwards.
All the teams played this system and had done so for decades. It was known as the W-M formation. which is what was shown in the programme.
In 1953 Hungary came to Wembley. England were undefeated by non British teams at home at the time. Hungary won 6-3 by playing a different system. At times 3-2-3-2 then 4-2-4. In the England team that day was a fullback called Ramsey.
However such innovative tactics were slow to catch on. After all, we were not going to be taught a lesson in football by Johnny Foreigner were we. I mean we invented the game !
When he was appointed as Ipswich manager Alf remembered that match and changed things.
He started by taking away the wingers (+2 players). Then he took away one of the inside forwards (+1 player). Instead he had twin strikers. Arguing that they could play off each other.
Then he turned to the defence. Again arguing that the centre forward could only pass one way at a time he therefore only needed two centre halves (+1 player). He retained the full backs because they still had to deal with the opposition wingers.
That left 4 players unused. These he strung across midfield. Most teams then rarely played through the middle. Long ball and pass out to wingers was king.
The result really was that Town were always playing effectively against 9 men because Ramsey had taken the opposition full backs right out of the game.
Even when Town started doing well in the lower divisions playing a different system the likes of the big clubs did not pay attention. After all, what could they possibly learn from a small town club from sleepy Suffolk?
Those that are paying attention might call his new formation 4-4-2. "Ramsey's wingless wonders" they were called. Doug Moran and Jimmy "Sticks" Leadbetter were his wide men in that midfield towards the end. But even in 1962 as Champions the press still referred to them as "Wingers".
If you are a Blue and you have not heard of his twin centre forwards of Crawford and Phillips then you should be ashamed. They scored 143 goals from 197 games and 161 goals from 296 games respectively.
In the Championship season of 61-62 Crawford scored 33. How much would a striker be worth who got that many in the EPL ? Oh and Phillips helped himself to 36 that year including cup games.
I thought that an explanation of Ramsey's achievements for those of who are not of a certain age might be appropriate. Along with the evolution of early tactics
Next time you are there go and tap his statue, just to acknowledge what the great man achieved for us. [Post edited 17 Jul 14:36]
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| Alf's 5 forwards on 22:44 - Jul 16 with 1375 views | SimonBatfordITFC |
Been reading Inverting the Pyramid by any chance? |  | | |
| Alf's 5 forwards on 22:51 - Jul 16 with 1347 views | flykickingbybgunn |
| Alf's 5 forwards on 22:44 - Jul 16 by SimonBatfordITFC |
Been reading Inverting the Pyramid by any chance? |
Nope. Just living Ipswich Town and prompted by seeing the programme. | | | |
| Alf's 5 forwards on 23:05 - Jul 16 with 1295 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
Interestingly that formation is similar to how we used to play hockey many decades ago with the inside forwards.
Of course the Dutch took it even further by developing total football where all players could play football and didn't stick to particular positions but covered for each other as they moved into different positions. |  |
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| Alf's 5 forwards on 00:22 - Jul 17 with 1157 views | Guthrum |
We still used to play "2-3-5" formation when I was at school, a decade and a half after Ramsey's revolution at Ipswich. |  |
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| Alf's 5 forwards on 06:35 - Jul 17 with 1002 views | BlueBadger |
| Alf's 5 forwards on 00:22 - Jul 17 by Guthrum |
We still used to play "2-3-5" formation when I was at school, a decade and a half after Ramsey's revolution at Ipswich. |
And was Facters your strike partner or the coach? |  |
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| Alf's 5 forwards on 07:50 - Jul 17 with 865 views | NthQldITFC |
So was Town, apart from the Hungarians, the birthplace of 4-4-2? A system that dominated football for probably forty years?
People should come on pilgrimages to Portman Road from all over the world, really, even 'football' supporters from Norwich, who could bring themselves 'up to date' (given the usual offset sixty year when it comes to that part of the world - and we could add in some basic gene pool education for them at the same time). |  |
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| Alf's 5 forwards on 09:19 - Jul 17 with 746 views | monty_radio |
Good article, just to say, it was not"Ronny", but Doug Moran, always known as Dixie - and, along with Andy Nelson, still going strong at 90. Young Ray Crawford has a year to go yet. Was longevity something else learned from those baffling Hungarians, perhaps? [Post edited 17 Jul 9:20]
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| Alf's 5 forwards on 10:12 - Jul 17 with 660 views | flykickingbybgunn |
| Alf's 5 forwards on 09:19 - Jul 17 by monty_radio |
Good article, just to say, it was not"Ronny", but Doug Moran, always known as Dixie - and, along with Andy Nelson, still going strong at 90. Young Ray Crawford has a year to go yet. Was longevity something else learned from those baffling Hungarians, perhaps? [Post edited 17 Jul 9:20]
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Quite right. My mistake.
Then I compounded that mistake by giving you a downy when I meant to give an uppy. Sorry about that.
Can somebody else give Monty an uppy for me.
Thanks | | | |
| Alf's 5 forwards on 10:19 - Jul 17 with 639 views | monty_radio |
| Alf's 5 forwards on 10:12 - Jul 17 by flykickingbybgunn |
Quite right. My mistake.
Then I compounded that mistake by giving you a downy when I meant to give an uppy. Sorry about that.
Can somebody else give Monty an uppy for me.
Thanks |
Not to worry! | |
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| Alf's 5 forwards on 12:01 - Jul 17 with 537 views | woodbridge_blue |
| Alf's 5 forwards on 09:19 - Jul 17 by monty_radio |
Good article, just to say, it was not"Ronny", but Doug Moran, always known as Dixie - and, along with Andy Nelson, still going strong at 90. Young Ray Crawford has a year to go yet. Was longevity something else learned from those baffling Hungarians, perhaps? [Post edited 17 Jul 9:20]
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Yes, a very good article...one other refinement, the right winger was Roy "Rocky" Stephenson, those of us that played local cricket a few decades ago would also remember him as a decent wicketkeeper/batsman.
Doug Moran was more of an inside forward, supporting Crawford and Phillips and he certainly weighed in with his fair share of goals from that position.
What the OP has done is reinforced my opinion that Alf was our best ever manager. He was as innovative as any manager in English football since WW2, took a nondescript side from the third division to become champions of England, a one-off never to be repeated, and although of course Bobby produced three great sides, a deal of credit should go to Bobby Ferguson for his tactical innovations, whilst Alf did it all himself.
We will never know of course, but it is interesting to speculate how we would have progressed had Alf not been called up for the England job. | | | |
| Alf's 5 forwards on 12:14 - Jul 17 with 496 views | Meadowlark |
Very nice and succint explanation.
We were still "taught" 2-3-5 at school in the mid/late 60's but I guess that reflected more on the age of our teachers. |  | | |
| Alf's 5 forwards on 15:12 - Jul 17 with 360 views | monty_radio |
| Alf's 5 forwards on 12:14 - Jul 17 by Meadowlark |
Very nice and succint explanation.
We were still "taught" 2-3-5 at school in the mid/late 60's but I guess that reflected more on the age of our teachers. |
I well remember as a right back in junior school getting a cuff round the ear for straying over the halfway line. | |
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| Alf's 5 forwards on 17:21 - Jul 17 with 280 views | flykickingbybgunn |
| Alf's 5 forwards on 15:12 - Jul 17 by monty_radio |
I well remember as a right back in junior school getting a cuff round the ear for straying over the halfway line. |
As a winger I got a boll.king for going back over the line. "Get out there Fly. And when you get the ball run like ..ell for the touch line."
It was ever thus.
I was a better spin bowler than winger. But who in the 60's wanted spin ? Unless your name was Underwood all they wanted was pace. | | | |
| Alf's 5 forwards on 13:53 - Jul 18 with 109 views | monty_radio |
| Alf's 5 forwards on 12:01 - Jul 17 by woodbridge_blue |
Yes, a very good article...one other refinement, the right winger was Roy "Rocky" Stephenson, those of us that played local cricket a few decades ago would also remember him as a decent wicketkeeper/batsman.
Doug Moran was more of an inside forward, supporting Crawford and Phillips and he certainly weighed in with his fair share of goals from that position.
What the OP has done is reinforced my opinion that Alf was our best ever manager. He was as innovative as any manager in English football since WW2, took a nondescript side from the third division to become champions of England, a one-off never to be repeated, and although of course Bobby produced three great sides, a deal of credit should go to Bobby Ferguson for his tactical innovations, whilst Alf did it all himself.
We will never know of course, but it is interesting to speculate how we would have progressed had Alf not been called up for the England job. |
"What the OP has done is reinforced my opinion that Alf was our best ever manager. He was as innovative as any manager in English football since WW2, took a nondescript side from the third division to become champions of England, a one-off never to be repeated"
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Absolutely. What a stunning and underrated achievement. Some on the media compared Leicester's triumph with our own. But while there's no denying that Leicester's was a terrific achievement, it was not done without sizeable investment and purchases that were not entirely unknown - unlike Alf's rag-tag army at a sleepy Ipswich that had only been in the league at all for 17 seasons, and who, only 18 seasons before, had been known to taste defeat at the likes of the mighty Guildford City. | |
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| Alf's 5 forwards on 14:40 - Jul 18 with 83 views | monty_radio |
| Alf's 5 forwards on 15:12 - Jul 17 by monty_radio |
I well remember as a right back in junior school getting a cuff round the ear for straying over the halfway line. |
The professional game was no different. Larry Carberry, who played nearly 300 times for Town, never scored. He was one of the five who won Div 3(S), Div 2 and Div 1 with Town, and under Sir Alf. | |
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| Alf's 5 forwards on 17:18 - Jul 18 with 35 views | flykickingbybgunn |
| Alf's 5 forwards on 14:40 - Jul 18 by monty_radio |
The professional game was no different. Larry Carberry, who played nearly 300 times for Town, never scored. He was one of the five who won Div 3(S), Div 2 and Div 1 with Town, and under Sir Alf. |
Larry Carberry !
Nobody calls their boy Larry any more.
I'm going to call my next child Larry to make up for it.
Mind you as I can remember watching him play that may not happen too soon. | | | |
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