| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? 07:55 - May 24 with 17613 views | Herbivore |
All of the terrorist attacks perpetrated in the UK this century have been carried out by people born and raised here. We really need to start asking some hard questions about why it is that people born and raised in the UK are drawn towards killing their fellow citizens in large numbers. It's too easy to just blame religion, there are hundreds of thousands (possibly over a million?) of UK citizens of the Muslim faith who would never consider taking another life. We can't look for simplistic answers anymore, this is a complex problem and unless we tackle the underlying causes of young Brits being susceptible to radical ideas we will never make any progress. |  |
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| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? on 07:59 - May 24 with 4090 views | blue_oyster |
To be British now is almost meaningless, so to compare along these lines won't get you a meaningful answer. These attacks are mainly in response to the wars being waged in the Middle East, usually started by Western countries. |  |
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| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? on 08:04 - May 24 with 4076 views | homer_123 |
You're quite correct.
In the UK there were 574 murders to September 2015 up 71 on the previous 12 months.
From 2000 to 2015 there have been 90 people killed in the form of terrorist attacks according to the Global Terrorism Database. [Post edited 24 May 2017 8:07]
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| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? on 08:05 - May 24 with 4064 views | Herbivore |
| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? on 07:59 - May 24 by blue_oyster |
To be British now is almost meaningless, so to compare along these lines won't get you a meaningful answer. These attacks are mainly in response to the wars being waged in the Middle East, usually started by Western countries. |
That's far too simplistic though. There are numerous first, second and third generation immigrants from Middle Eastern countries living in the UK who don't see killing British citizens as an acceptable response to Western aggression in the Middle East. It's one factor, but do you think that if the people who committed these atrocities were doing well in life and integrated into their communities that they'd still want revenge against Britain? Many of the factors that lead other young people to joining gangs and getting involved in violent crime are at play here, the crimes being committed are just on a much larger scale because there is a whole ideology and modus operandi that goes with it. | |
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| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? on 08:06 - May 24 with 4042 views | GlasgowBlue |
I posted this after the Paris attacks. It's seems just as relevant this morning. It was with regards to whether a military solution in its own would end the attacks, which I don't believe it would
Indeed it's a complex situation but ISIS must be militarily defeated in the territories it currently holds. If not they will expand in the Middle East bringing more suffering and misery to the population of the areas it has invaded.
The city of Sinjar was liberated days ago by Kurdish forces. Most of the Yazidi women and girls have been sold for slavery. Young boys indoctrinated and conscripted as part of their army of hate.
But it can't end with bombing them out of existence. The west then has to do more to rebuild these countries in the same way we did with Germany after the Second World War. America. China and to a lesser extent Russia and the EU have the financial resources to do this. To ensure that economic circumstances are let people live a life where they see no hope or future and makes them an easy target for radicalisation.
And we can all play a part in this country in creating circumstances where young Muslim men do not feel disenfranchised and alienated. Our press and political leaders have to stop demonising the majority of normal decent law abiding Muslims in this country. We need more role models in positions of authority that represent the diverse make up of our society. We need Muslims to feel that they are part of this country.
But that works both ways. Too often, members of the Muslim community cut themselves off from mainstream society. They need to do more to integrate
You may at least understand why the older generation cling so tightly to the dogma of their religion and view some western ways as decadent. But in the 21st century it is bizarre that the most radical and fanatical extremists are young people.
These are the people we have to give some sort of hope to. Find a way to make them feel British first and their religion something that is far less important to their lives than it is now. We seem to have made a good job of that situation with Christisnity in this country.
That's my two bob's worth anyway. |  |
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| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? on 08:08 - May 24 with 4051 views | Herbivore |
| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? on 08:04 - May 24 by homer_123 |
You're quite correct.
In the UK there were 574 murders to September 2015 up 71 on the previous 12 months.
From 2000 to 2015 there have been 90 people killed in the form of terrorist attacks according to the Global Terrorism Database. [Post edited 24 May 2017 8:07]
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See my other post above. Framing this in terms of East vs West or religion misses the point that essentially these are young men drawn to extreme criminal behaviour, much like a large proportion of the murderers you identify. What makes terrorists special cases is the scale of their crime, not the underlying push and pull factors towards committing a crime. Unfortunately our responses to these kind of attacks tend to exacerbate some of the factors that lead people down this path, they increase feelings of division, persecution and alienation. | |
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| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? on 08:09 - May 24 with 4046 views | Darth_Koont |
Agreed.
It's a problem in all Western societies as well so I think we need to be focusing on the wider nature of modern society for answers than anything explicitly tied up in our culture or history. Our culture and history give a unique twist on that, of course.
I do think that modern society is designed to give us many freedoms and opportunities but with that more fluid structure we need to work harder at making people feel they belong - both as governments and in our personal lives. Especially in the aftermath of such events as the Manchester bombing when it's never more important to give people a smile and a friendly word, and show that you see beyond the superficial differences to the 99% of stuff that really connects us. |  |
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| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? on 08:10 - May 24 with 4035 views | factual_blue |
I would think we need to combat the alienation, sense of failure, apathy and so forth that these youngsters (rightly or wrongly) feel. It's those negative feelings that are exploited by IS and others, who tell the vulnerable that the reason for their failure/inadequacy/mental health issues is evil Western society. |  |
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| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? on 08:11 - May 24 with 4035 views | Herbivore |
| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? on 08:06 - May 24 by GlasgowBlue |
I posted this after the Paris attacks. It's seems just as relevant this morning. It was with regards to whether a military solution in its own would end the attacks, which I don't believe it would
Indeed it's a complex situation but ISIS must be militarily defeated in the territories it currently holds. If not they will expand in the Middle East bringing more suffering and misery to the population of the areas it has invaded.
The city of Sinjar was liberated days ago by Kurdish forces. Most of the Yazidi women and girls have been sold for slavery. Young boys indoctrinated and conscripted as part of their army of hate.
But it can't end with bombing them out of existence. The west then has to do more to rebuild these countries in the same way we did with Germany after the Second World War. America. China and to a lesser extent Russia and the EU have the financial resources to do this. To ensure that economic circumstances are let people live a life where they see no hope or future and makes them an easy target for radicalisation.
And we can all play a part in this country in creating circumstances where young Muslim men do not feel disenfranchised and alienated. Our press and political leaders have to stop demonising the majority of normal decent law abiding Muslims in this country. We need more role models in positions of authority that represent the diverse make up of our society. We need Muslims to feel that they are part of this country.
But that works both ways. Too often, members of the Muslim community cut themselves off from mainstream society. They need to do more to integrate
You may at least understand why the older generation cling so tightly to the dogma of their religion and view some western ways as decadent. But in the 21st century it is bizarre that the most radical and fanatical extremists are young people.
These are the people we have to give some sort of hope to. Find a way to make them feel British first and their religion something that is far less important to their lives than it is now. We seem to have made a good job of that situation with Christisnity in this country.
That's my two bob's worth anyway. |
Hard to argue with much of that. I'm on a course at the moment around communication and the power it has and one of the papers I'm reading contrasts the rhetoric that came out around the treaty of Versailles with the rhetoric that accompanied the Marshall plan. One of those events led to a further world war in just over two decades, the other led to a prolonged period of peace in the West. We need to think about how we talk about these incidents and the issues that underlie them, all of the us and them type language just serves to deepen divisions and continue conflict. [Post edited 24 May 2017 8:13]
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| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? on 08:13 - May 24 with 4030 views | textbackup |
Honestly? I don't think we can stop it, as horrific as that sounds. If there's a nutty cnt that genuinely believes he is off to a better place by committing this act, then you can't control that |  |
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| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? on 08:16 - May 24 with 4015 views | homer_123 |
| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? on 08:08 - May 24 by Herbivore |
See my other post above. Framing this in terms of East vs West or religion misses the point that essentially these are young men drawn to extreme criminal behaviour, much like a large proportion of the murderers you identify. What makes terrorists special cases is the scale of their crime, not the underlying push and pull factors towards committing a crime. Unfortunately our responses to these kind of attacks tend to exacerbate some of the factors that lead people down this path, they increase feelings of division, persecution and alienation. |
One could also ask the questions, how do we stop Brits killing non-Brits?
Coalition forces kill 30 in a school in Raqqa.....
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/s-coalition-syria-air-strike
Read down that thread and a further 46 were killed the week before.
One can argue how accurate these are but, there is no doubt that in these situations innocent lives are lost.
On a personal level, it feels to me that we get ourselves involved in situations such as this to try and stop mistreatment of others (laudable) but also to preserve our way of life. However, we end up making the situation worse, more often than not. We may preserve our way of life and thinking but by killing others? | |
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| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? on 08:20 - May 24 with 4008 views | Lord_Lucan |
The main problem is radicalisation in Mosques and prisons - and T'internet.
By all accounts this last bod was a normal bod but got his head turned in one of the more renowned mosques.
Until this is fully recognised we are p1ssing in the wind. |  |
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| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? on 08:22 - May 24 with 3996 views | Herbivore |
| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? on 08:16 - May 24 by homer_123 |
One could also ask the questions, how do we stop Brits killing non-Brits?
Coalition forces kill 30 in a school in Raqqa.....
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/s-coalition-syria-air-strike
Read down that thread and a further 46 were killed the week before.
One can argue how accurate these are but, there is no doubt that in these situations innocent lives are lost.
On a personal level, it feels to me that we get ourselves involved in situations such as this to try and stop mistreatment of others (laudable) but also to preserve our way of life. However, we end up making the situation worse, more often than not. We may preserve our way of life and thinking but by killing others? |
Can't disagree with that. Our legacy of intervention in the Middle East is a huge factor in all this. It does rather make you think there might be something to say for military action only being used as a last resort. | |
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| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? on 08:30 - May 24 with 3957 views | textbackup |
| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? on 08:20 - May 24 by Lord_Lucan |
The main problem is radicalisation in Mosques and prisons - and T'internet.
By all accounts this last bod was a normal bod but got his head turned in one of the more renowned mosques.
Until this is fully recognised we are p1ssing in the wind. |
I'd like to know just how closely these guys are monitored. Known to police for football reasons and you're watched from train to pub to ground to pub to home | |
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| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? on 08:33 - May 24 with 3933 views | GlasgowBlue |
| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? on 08:22 - May 24 by Herbivore |
Can't disagree with that. Our legacy of intervention in the Middle East is a huge factor in all this. It does rather make you think there might be something to say for military action only being used as a last resort. |
with regards to military intervention, I always return to the words of the late Jo Cox and Andrew Mitchel in the their joint plan for Syria:
"Some may think that a military component has no place in an ethical response to Syria. We completely disagree. It is not ethical to wish away the barrel bombs from the Syrian government when you have the capacity to stop them. The deaths and fear generated by these indiscriminate air attacks are the main drivers of the refugee crisis in Europe. Nor is it ethical to watch when villages are overrun by Isis fighters who make sex slaves of children and slaughter their fellow Muslims, when we have the capability to hold them back" | |
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| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? on 08:34 - May 24 with 3939 views | taximan |
| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? on 08:20 - May 24 by Lord_Lucan |
The main problem is radicalisation in Mosques and prisons - and T'internet.
By all accounts this last bod was a normal bod but got his head turned in one of the more renowned mosques.
Until this is fully recognised we are p1ssing in the wind. |
knock the lot of them down
if they want to pray to a god, then in this country you pray to our god
if they want to pray to their god
then maybe they should live in a country where islam is preached
i'm an atheist so imo its all b0ll0x |  | | |
| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? on 08:41 - May 24 with 3908 views | Swailsey |
| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? on 08:34 - May 24 by taximan |
knock the lot of them down
if they want to pray to a god, then in this country you pray to our god
if they want to pray to their god
then maybe they should live in a country where islam is preached
i'm an atheist so imo its all b0ll0x |
But what is 'our' God? Catholicism didn't start in the UK did it? |  |
| Who said: "Colin Healy made Cesc Fabregas look like Colin Healy"? | We miss you TLA |
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| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? on 08:42 - May 24 with 3902 views | Darth_Koont |
| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? on 08:34 - May 24 by taximan |
knock the lot of them down
if they want to pray to a god, then in this country you pray to our god
if they want to pray to their god
then maybe they should live in a country where islam is preached
i'm an atheist so imo its all b0ll0x |
They do live in a country where Islam is preached. We have many faiths in this country and rightly so. | |
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| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? on 08:43 - May 24 with 3893 views | taximan |
| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? on 08:41 - May 24 by Swailsey |
But what is 'our' God? Catholicism didn't start in the UK did it? |
in an ideal world i would ban all worshipping of fictional characters | | | |
| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? on 08:44 - May 24 with 3888 views | Darth_Koont |
| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? on 08:43 - May 24 by taximan |
in an ideal world i would ban all worshipping of fictional characters |
Nigel Farage? | |
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| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? on 08:44 - May 24 with 3885 views | DanTheMan |
| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? on 08:34 - May 24 by taximan |
knock the lot of them down
if they want to pray to a god, then in this country you pray to our god
if they want to pray to their god
then maybe they should live in a country where islam is preached
i'm an atheist so imo its all b0ll0x |
"Allah" and "God" are literally the same thing.
So... they are? |  |
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| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? on 08:45 - May 24 with 3877 views | taximan |
| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? on 08:42 - May 24 by Darth_Koont |
They do live in a country where Islam is preached. We have many faiths in this country and rightly so. |
the uk is not an islamic state/country | | | |
| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? on 08:45 - May 24 with 3871 views | Clapham_Junction |
I think moving to an entirely secular school system has a role to play. Faith schools create de facto segregation amongst kids - they should all grow up together.
It's very sad that the school system in Northern Ireland is still so segregated. |  | | |
| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? on 08:47 - May 24 with 3852 views | taximan |
| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? on 08:44 - May 24 by DanTheMan |
"Allah" and "God" are literally the same thing.
So... they are? |
allah is their version of god
its all a load of b0ll0x
with the advancement of science, i would have thought everyone would know that the idea of a god, whichever version, is a load of sh1te | | | |
| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? on 08:48 - May 24 with 3843 views | Darth_Koont |
| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? on 08:45 - May 24 by taximan |
the uk is not an islamic state/country |
You're showing the sort of narrow attitude that is part of the problem more than the solution.
We are a country where cultures and faiths are accepted and protected by law. What do you think you'll achieve by trying to force your ideas on people? | |
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| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? on 08:48 - May 24 with 3842 views | Swailsey |
| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? on 08:45 - May 24 by taximan |
the uk is not an islamic state/country |
This is what I always find hard though. Most religions were founded in one place, and then spread, often in a terrible, terrible way. Think about the crusades.
Especially seeing that you're an atheist (like myself), surely it shouldn't matter?
Should there not be a large Jewish community in New York as well? They should all stick to their original settlements?
A lot of my Christian friends are going to have to move to Judea then. Which will prove problematic. | |
| Who said: "Colin Healy made Cesc Fabregas look like Colin Healy"? | We miss you TLA |
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