| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? 07:55 - May 24 with 17623 views | Herbivore |
All of the terrorist attacks perpetrated in the UK this century have been carried out by people born and raised here. We really need to start asking some hard questions about why it is that people born and raised in the UK are drawn towards killing their fellow citizens in large numbers. It's too easy to just blame religion, there are hundreds of thousands (possibly over a million?) of UK citizens of the Muslim faith who would never consider taking another life. We can't look for simplistic answers anymore, this is a complex problem and unless we tackle the underlying causes of young Brits being susceptible to radical ideas we will never make any progress. |  |
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| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? on 09:28 - May 24 with 1431 views | Steve_M |
| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? on 09:07 - May 24 by Radlett_blue |
Many multiple killers world-wide are disaffected young men, with religion not necessarily being a large factor. But it does appear that many Islamist terrorists have been radicalised by Islamist extremists in this country & trained overseas by branches of IS or Al-Queda. While Western intervention in the Middle East has not been the only factor, it has produced several failed states - Iraq, Libya & Syria. This has displaced a large number of people, primarily young men. It is likely that a good number of them will find life hard in the West, become disaffected & some may well become terrorists.
No, I don't have a solution to either issue. |
The comparison of intervention in Libya with non-intervention in Syria isn't very optimistic in either case. Although Assad's decision to destroy all non-IS opposition to him, aided and abetted by Putin, has made the situation far worse. |  |
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| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? on 09:33 - May 24 with 1409 views | CaptainObvious |
| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? on 09:26 - May 24 by Darth_Koont |
That's a bit of an @rsehole comment, mate.
There are a number of examples already anyway. And the issue is more about the fact that these terrorists are born and bred here - which suggests to me that we need to take as much responsibility as we can as a society. Dropping bombs in the Middle East isn't addressing that. |
it wasn't intended to offend. to be clear, the second part refers to what i've seen on social media, not what i've seen on here. |  |
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| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? on 09:34 - May 24 with 1404 views | Radlett_blue |
| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? on 09:28 - May 24 by Steve_M |
The comparison of intervention in Libya with non-intervention in Syria isn't very optimistic in either case. Although Assad's decision to destroy all non-IS opposition to him, aided and abetted by Putin, has made the situation far worse. |
Plenty of people here wanted to bomb Assad, or his forces. Yes, Assad is a unpleasant dictator, but would launching air strikes against his forces achieved anything apart from making some people here feel better? You have to decide what your objective is. "Regime change" was disastrous in Iraq & Libya. The EU didn't have the desire to stand up to Putin & the US has become far less interested in the Middle East. |  |
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| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? on 09:37 - May 24 with 1398 views | artsbossbeard |
| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? on 09:22 - May 24 by taximan |
i'm guessing your views would change if it was your children or wife killed in a terrorist attack ? (presuming you have both) |
I'm in no way condoning the actions, in fact I'm condemning them, however, this works both ways too.
Some young lad in Syria witnessed his family blown up by an air missile will want revenge on Russia/The West/whoever and the cycle simply repeats itself 'til we're all fecking dust.
It's never-ending without dialogue and that ain't happening anytime soon. |  |
| Please note: prior to hitting the post button, I've double checked for anything that could be construed as "Anti Semitic" and to the best of my knowledge it isn't. Anything deemed to be of a Xenophobic nature is therefore purely accidental or down to your own misconstruing. | | Poll: | Raining in IP8 - shall I get the washing in? |
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| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? on 09:39 - May 24 with 1397 views | Darth_Koont |
| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? on 09:33 - May 24 by CaptainObvious |
it wasn't intended to offend. to be clear, the second part refers to what i've seen on social media, not what i've seen on here. |
I don't buy the point-scoring jibe either. There'll clearly be @rseholes on both sides of the debate trying to score points.
We need to look at the evidence to address the solution - and so far there's a lot of evidence to suggest that we have a wider problem to sort out in Western society that isn't restricted to a particular culture or faith. |  |
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| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? on 09:39 - May 24 with 1392 views | noggin |
| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? on 09:37 - May 24 by artsbossbeard |
I'm in no way condoning the actions, in fact I'm condemning them, however, this works both ways too.
Some young lad in Syria witnessed his family blown up by an air missile will want revenge on Russia/The West/whoever and the cycle simply repeats itself 'til we're all fecking dust.
It's never-ending without dialogue and that ain't happening anytime soon. |
Far too much money in war. Anyone who believes the west are innocent victims of terrorism, need to look at who we do business with. |  |
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| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? on 09:48 - May 24 with 1356 views | Steve_M |
| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? on 09:39 - May 24 by noggin |
Far too much money in war. Anyone who believes the west are innocent victims of terrorism, need to look at who we do business with. |
Equally positing a direct causal link isn't good enough any more. Western policy is a factor but not the only one at play here.
How does Western policy lead to the murder of the Yazidis in Iraq? How does France's out-right refusal to attack Iraq in 2003 lead to Paris 2015? [Post edited 24 May 2017 11:58]
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| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? on 09:49 - May 24 with 1357 views | CaptainObvious |
| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? on 09:39 - May 24 by Darth_Koont |
I don't buy the point-scoring jibe either. There'll clearly be @rseholes on both sides of the debate trying to score points.
We need to look at the evidence to address the solution - and so far there's a lot of evidence to suggest that we have a wider problem to sort out in Western society that isn't restricted to a particular culture or faith. |
It is point-scoring. Birthplace may or may not be relevant (that's up for debate, i don't see why it makes a big difference), but as soon as it was announced there was a sudden rush of people trumpeting this fact as some sort of moral victory. They are more concerned with scoring points over those who may question our immigration policy, than of the relevance of the fact itself. Turning it into 'Brits killing Brits' fully turns the screw. | |
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| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? on 09:54 - May 24 with 1343 views | Darth_Koont |
| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? on 09:49 - May 24 by CaptainObvious |
It is point-scoring. Birthplace may or may not be relevant (that's up for debate, i don't see why it makes a big difference), but as soon as it was announced there was a sudden rush of people trumpeting this fact as some sort of moral victory. They are more concerned with scoring points over those who may question our immigration policy, than of the relevance of the fact itself. Turning it into 'Brits killing Brits' fully turns the screw. |
It makes a big difference because it's not the "Them vs. Us" narrative that's being used and abused far too often domestically and overseas.
If we genuinely want a solution, we also need to be prepared to look closer to home — and even in the mirror. | |
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| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? on 10:00 - May 24 with 1312 views | caught-in-limbo |
| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? on 08:33 - May 24 by GlasgowBlue |
with regards to military intervention, I always return to the words of the late Jo Cox and Andrew Mitchel in the their joint plan for Syria:
"Some may think that a military component has no place in an ethical response to Syria. We completely disagree. It is not ethical to wish away the barrel bombs from the Syrian government when you have the capacity to stop them. The deaths and fear generated by these indiscriminate air attacks are the main drivers of the refugee crisis in Europe. Nor is it ethical to watch when villages are overrun by Isis fighters who make sex slaves of children and slaughter their fellow Muslims, when we have the capability to hold them back" |
Suggesting earlier (as you have done here) that we need to intervene militarily in Syria lays out for everyone to see what your (and anyone else who proposes such action) real motives are.
But your "solution" is NO solution to the problem whatsoever.
Doing what you suggest hasn't politically stabilised Afghanistan, Iraq or Libya or improved the lot of normal citizens of those countries. Has it?
But most relevant of all is that doing what you suggest hasn't eliminated vile acts of terrorism by Wahabbi groups in our own countries. Has it?
If an arsonist goes round setting fire to properties, no sensible person would suggest demolishing those properties to stamp out the spread of fire. No, you identify the source of the fire and the elements which feed it. You deal with that, and then the fire will burn out.
The only solution for this is to deal with those Gulf states which condone, support, arm and spread the ideology of these Wahabbi groups and any countries which arm their supporters and finance them with oil/gas purchases. [Post edited 24 May 2017 10:55]
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| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? on 10:02 - May 24 with 1309 views | ThisIsMyUsername |
| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? on 08:06 - May 24 by GlasgowBlue |
I posted this after the Paris attacks. It's seems just as relevant this morning. It was with regards to whether a military solution in its own would end the attacks, which I don't believe it would
Indeed it's a complex situation but ISIS must be militarily defeated in the territories it currently holds. If not they will expand in the Middle East bringing more suffering and misery to the population of the areas it has invaded.
The city of Sinjar was liberated days ago by Kurdish forces. Most of the Yazidi women and girls have been sold for slavery. Young boys indoctrinated and conscripted as part of their army of hate.
But it can't end with bombing them out of existence. The west then has to do more to rebuild these countries in the same way we did with Germany after the Second World War. America. China and to a lesser extent Russia and the EU have the financial resources to do this. To ensure that economic circumstances are let people live a life where they see no hope or future and makes them an easy target for radicalisation.
And we can all play a part in this country in creating circumstances where young Muslim men do not feel disenfranchised and alienated. Our press and political leaders have to stop demonising the majority of normal decent law abiding Muslims in this country. We need more role models in positions of authority that represent the diverse make up of our society. We need Muslims to feel that they are part of this country.
But that works both ways. Too often, members of the Muslim community cut themselves off from mainstream society. They need to do more to integrate
You may at least understand why the older generation cling so tightly to the dogma of their religion and view some western ways as decadent. But in the 21st century it is bizarre that the most radical and fanatical extremists are young people.
These are the people we have to give some sort of hope to. Find a way to make them feel British first and their religion something that is far less important to their lives than it is now. We seem to have made a good job of that situation with Christisnity in this country.
That's my two bob's worth anyway. |
We defeat ISIS and then in 10 years there will be another group who have replaced them doing the same thing.
It's a never ending battle that will require never ending resources to minimise the effect had on people living in other countries (as well as the effect on Iraqis, Syrians etc, too, obviously). |  |
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| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? on 10:05 - May 24 with 1301 views | CaptainObvious |
| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? on 09:54 - May 24 by Darth_Koont |
It makes a big difference because it's not the "Them vs. Us" narrative that's being used and abused far too often domestically and overseas.
If we genuinely want a solution, we also need to be prepared to look closer to home — and even in the mirror. |
What if he'd been born in Libya and moved here aged 2. The only difference that would make would be the far right point-scoring on immigration instead of the liberals. But it would be of no real relevance to understanding or solving the situation. | |
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| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? on 10:09 - May 24 with 1286 views | imsureazzure |
| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? on 08:20 - May 24 by Lord_Lucan |
The main problem is radicalisation in Mosques and prisons - and T'internet.
By all accounts this last bod was a normal bod but got his head turned in one of the more renowned mosques.
Until this is fully recognised we are p1ssing in the wind. |
I firmly believe that if someone can be persuaded to kneel, face a certain direction, chant to a imaginary being, starve oneself and dehydrate oneself during the height of summer then it is not a huge leap to further radicalise.
Islam and Catholicism two cheeks of the same controlling arse. |  | | |
| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? on 10:10 - May 24 with 1279 views | Swansea_Blue |
| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? on 10:00 - May 24 by caught-in-limbo |
Suggesting earlier (as you have done here) that we need to intervene militarily in Syria lays out for everyone to see what your (and anyone else who proposes such action) real motives are.
But your "solution" is NO solution to the problem whatsoever.
Doing what you suggest hasn't politically stabilised Afghanistan, Iraq or Libya or improved the lot of normal citizens of those countries. Has it?
But most relevant of all is that doing what you suggest hasn't eliminated vile acts of terrorism by Wahabbi groups in our own countries. Has it?
If an arsonist goes round setting fire to properties, no sensible person would suggest demolishing those properties to stamp out the spread of fire. No, you identify the source of the fire and the elements which feed it. You deal with that, and then the fire will burn out.
The only solution for this is to deal with those Gulf states which condone, support, arm and spread the ideology of these Wahabbi groups and any countries which arm their supporters and finance them with oil/gas purchases. [Post edited 24 May 2017 10:55]
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I don't doubt that Glasser's real motive is compassion. But I wish I could be so confident in our successive politicians here and in the US who have either literally supported these militants or created the environment for them to flourish since the 1970s (and probably before).
Don't disagree with anything else you've said there. To me it seems like we keep making the same mistakes, but they're only mistakes if the outcomes are not intended. Acceptable collateral damage might be a better description. |  |
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| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? on 10:15 - May 24 with 1264 views | chicoazul |
We live in an increasingly lawless society where family has become less and less important and personal responsibility has become denuded. I believe proper enforcement of the law especially drug laws and anti-gang laws would have the dual effect of reducing mass murder of the type you describe and reinforce the family, and that we ought to all look out for our young a bit more as it is in everyone's interests.
I have no evidence of this yet but I believe we will find the killer was a drug abuser, in all likelihood of strong cannabis and prescription drugs of some kind. So I think we should also have some sort of public enquiry into the widespread use of psycho-active prescription drugs. |  |
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| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? on 10:19 - May 24 with 1253 views | Darth_Koont |
| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? on 10:05 - May 24 by CaptainObvious |
What if he'd been born in Libya and moved here aged 2. The only difference that would make would be the far right point-scoring on immigration instead of the liberals. But it would be of no real relevance to understanding or solving the situation. |
He'd have still grown up in the society he wants to bomb so no real difference as far as I'm concerned.
But the issue of "Britishness" — whether it's people saying he's born here and we should take responsibility or people saying he's born here so he should accept our Christian religion and values — is an important part of the discussion.
It also highlights the large disconnect between reality and the UKIP's border control fetish/blaming foreigners for everything under the sun. | |
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| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? on 10:23 - May 24 with 1233 views | taximan |
| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? on 10:09 - May 24 by imsureazzure |
I firmly believe that if someone can be persuaded to kneel, face a certain direction, chant to a imaginary being, starve oneself and dehydrate oneself during the height of summer then it is not a huge leap to further radicalise.
Islam and Catholicism two cheeks of the same controlling arse. |
nice one
have an uppie |  | | |
| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? on 10:27 - May 24 with 1224 views | hype313 |
| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? on 10:15 - May 24 by chicoazul |
We live in an increasingly lawless society where family has become less and less important and personal responsibility has become denuded. I believe proper enforcement of the law especially drug laws and anti-gang laws would have the dual effect of reducing mass murder of the type you describe and reinforce the family, and that we ought to all look out for our young a bit more as it is in everyone's interests.
I have no evidence of this yet but I believe we will find the killer was a drug abuser, in all likelihood of strong cannabis and prescription drugs of some kind. So I think we should also have some sort of public enquiry into the widespread use of psycho-active prescription drugs. |
Something Peter Hitchens has been banging on about for years now. |  |
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| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? on 10:28 - May 24 with 1216 views | GlasgowBlue |
| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? on 09:11 - May 24 by artsbossbeard |
My Glaswegian mate crossed the divide and married a Catholic girl. We went up one Christmas/New Year and were sat at theirs when some of her relatives turned up.
"Alright, Xxxxx, you Orange Ba5tard?" was the general greeting from all to include kids. All light hearted but,of course, in-grained over years. |
You're right. For most of the time it is "you Feinian bastard" or "you orange bastard" type banter.
But I've seen really good friends turn on each other in a pub whilst watching an old firm game. |  |
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| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? on 10:31 - May 24 with 1203 views | Darth_Koont |
| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? on 10:09 - May 24 by imsureazzure |
I firmly believe that if someone can be persuaded to kneel, face a certain direction, chant to a imaginary being, starve oneself and dehydrate oneself during the height of summer then it is not a huge leap to further radicalise.
Islam and Catholicism two cheeks of the same controlling arse. |
Although in practice it is a huge leap as 99.999% of religious people don't make that leap.
Also the profile of these extremists is fairly special and they're not often devout practicing muslims - they are lapsed muslims, young men who have more or less been westernized, then have an identity crisis and return to Islam quite literally with a vengeance. In that sense, no different to many far-right extremists or even lone assassins that go off the rails. | |
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| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? on 10:35 - May 24 with 1186 views | chicoazul |
| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? on 10:27 - May 24 by hype313 |
Something Peter Hitchens has been banging on about for years now. |
Yep. We are all playing catch up with that guy. | |
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| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? on 10:36 - May 24 with 1178 views | chicoazul |
| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? on 10:28 - May 24 by GlasgowBlue |
You're right. For most of the time it is "you Feinian bastard" or "you orange bastard" type banter.
But I've seen really good friends turn on each other in a pub whilst watching an old firm game. |
Those guys, there is no helping them. That stuff predates Christianity. It's some of the oldest hatreds in the world. | |
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| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? on 10:36 - May 24 with 1173 views | imsureazzure |
| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? on 10:31 - May 24 by Darth_Koont |
Although in practice it is a huge leap as 99.999% of religious people don't make that leap.
Also the profile of these extremists is fairly special and they're not often devout practicing muslims - they are lapsed muslims, young men who have more or less been westernized, then have an identity crisis and return to Islam quite literally with a vengeance. In that sense, no different to many far-right extremists or even lone assassins that go off the rails. |
I think percentages are not your strongest suit. | | | |
| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? on 10:37 - May 24 with 1166 views | chicoazul |
| How do we stop Brits killing Brits? on 10:09 - May 24 by imsureazzure |
I firmly believe that if someone can be persuaded to kneel, face a certain direction, chant to a imaginary being, starve oneself and dehydrate oneself during the height of summer then it is not a huge leap to further radicalise.
Islam and Catholicism two cheeks of the same controlling arse. |
I believe religion has very little to do with the mass murders we see now. The guys who killed Rigby were not devout Moslems. | |
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