| Brexit cl@sterf@ck thoughts #13,432; Trump downfall begins 08:43 - Nov 30 with 13668 views | unstableblue |
Looks like May’s deal will fail in a few weeks to get through parliament. Too many MPs publicly stating opposition and Labour has no direction.
May will probably then go. And our finances and economy will be thrown into turmoil and further uncertainty and stalled investment.
Amusingly some of the whips are stating MPs will miss Christmas if they dismiss what May has on the table. And too bloody right. No MP or senior government person should have any time off currently we are in a shambles.
The voice for no deal, complete drop out, and ‘reverting’ to WTO rules grows louder, the siren call for Brexiteers who offer no workable solution. WTO rules is not a workable solution (see article link below), and indeed many leavers used to dismiss it as a non starter:
https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/blog/uk-cant-rely-wto-rules-soften-blo
It’s a cl@sterf@ck that completely damages our country. Whilst we should be out in the world selling our creativity and energy to new markets AS a part of the EU, an entry point into the EU. The balance of power is shifting to the East and France and Germany are
Out there selling large... undistracted by Brexit.
Another superpower who chose an isolationist agenda, the USA is similarly missing the boat...
India and China are flexing, selling hard into Africa, South America, and Asia... often centred on German kit (for how long?)... whilst US-A crippled by its own debt, failing infrastructure and huge social divide further harms itself with unworkable tariffs and a racist persona.
The Trump lies are coming home to roost - his agenda of anti immigration and tub thumping patriotism (sounds like our Leave campaign) was never any good for the American people, even his base. But it won’t be his sympathy for the hard right or his climate change denial, or his perpetual lying and demonising of the media that will be his downfall.
It’ll be his greed and his dodgy dealings with women and non-disclosure agreements. And to think many in the UK look on Trump as some exemplar.
And of course he was to be our Brexit saviour - which he has reneged on. An orange, serial liar, misogynistic seleflish man who counts Farage as his friend was never going to one to build a strategy on.
Ahem....
Don’t know where that all came from.. time for a lie down.
If only our team was doing well - we’d all be immune to external concerns!!
[Post edited 30 Nov 2018 8:55]
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| Brexit cl@sterf@ck thoughts #13,432; Trump downfall begins on 14:08 - Nov 30 with 2896 views | Pinewoodblue |
Ryorry is right. Democracy is not about getting your own way. Democracy is the only looser if people believe if they make enough noise they will get a chance to overturn a democratic decision.
If you are looking for someone to call a thicko find a mirror. |  |
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| Brexit cl@sterf@ck thoughts #13,432; Trump downfall begins on 14:12 - Nov 30 with 2890 views | SpruceMoose |
| Brexit cl@sterf@ck thoughts #13,432; Trump downfall begins on 14:02 - Nov 30 by Ryorry |
Life is fluid, things change every day. If we had a re-vote every time every situation changes, it'd be impossible to plan and many people would question what the point in voting was, since their view would be disregarded in favour of another vote till the "right" result was arrived at.
Perhaps I didn't explain it very well!! |
It's not about getting the 'right' result. It's about the fact that there was no detail provided in the original vote as to what Brexit would be or look like. The only people who should be upset by a fresh vote are the ideologues who are desperate to force Brexit through by hell or highwater.
It's such a serious change for the country to make that it is the responsible thing to do, in my mind at least, to check back in with the country, say "this is what is actually being offered, do you still want it?"
Why would people not wish to find out what the future will actually be like and then decide if they actually want that? |  |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| Brexit cl@sterf@ck thoughts #13,432; Trump downfall begins on 14:19 - Nov 30 with 2881 views | Ryorry |
| Brexit cl@sterf@ck thoughts #13,432; Trump downfall begins on 14:12 - Nov 30 by SpruceMoose |
It's not about getting the 'right' result. It's about the fact that there was no detail provided in the original vote as to what Brexit would be or look like. The only people who should be upset by a fresh vote are the ideologues who are desperate to force Brexit through by hell or highwater.
It's such a serious change for the country to make that it is the responsible thing to do, in my mind at least, to check back in with the country, say "this is what is actually being offered, do you still want it?"
Why would people not wish to find out what the future will actually be like and then decide if they actually want that? |
And you think the situation a) is clearer now b) would be made clearer by another vote?  Look back through Guthrum's posts for his explan 2-3 days ago of why it would actually create even more chaos & confusion - it set things out beautifully, but I haven't got time to look for it myself atm. |  |
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| Brexit cl@sterf@ck thoughts #13,432; Trump downfall begins on 14:20 - Nov 30 with 2880 views | giant_stow |
| Brexit cl@sterf@ck thoughts #13,432; Trump downfall begins on 14:08 - Nov 30 by Pinewoodblue |
Ryorry is right. Democracy is not about getting your own way. Democracy is the only looser if people believe if they make enough noise they will get a chance to overturn a democratic decision.
If you are looking for someone to call a thicko find a mirror. |
people making enough noise to get their own way is the very essence of democracy!
The opposite of democracy is having one vote close off all future votes - that's how dictators come to power. |  |
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| Brexit cl@sterf@ck thoughts #13,432; Trump downfall begins on 14:29 - Nov 30 with 2865 views | SpruceMoose |
| Brexit cl@sterf@ck thoughts #13,432; Trump downfall begins on 14:19 - Nov 30 by Ryorry |
And you think the situation a) is clearer now b) would be made clearer by another vote? Look back through Guthrum's posts for his explan 2-3 days ago of why it would actually create even more chaos & confusion - it set things out beautifully, but I haven't got time to look for it myself atm. |
I'll never be up for shutting down debate or protest. That's the heart of democracy.
We know far more about the lies that were told in the referendum campaign. We now know that there was a high likelihood of outside interference. We have an actual deal on the table with details we can judge (if May gets it through that is, if not then we will have a no deal type Brexit on the table).
We know far more now about the realities of Brexit. For those Remainers who are set against another vote should it come to pass I would suggest, just don't vote if it bothers you that much. But please, don't get in the way of those of us who do wish to have a final say | |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| Brexit cl@sterf@ck thoughts #13,432; Trump downfall begins on 14:30 - Nov 30 with 2863 views | Dyland |
| Brexit cl@sterf@ck thoughts #13,432; Trump downfall begins on 14:20 - Nov 30 by giant_stow |
people making enough noise to get their own way is the very essence of democracy!
The opposite of democracy is having one vote close off all future votes - that's how dictators come to power. |
Nicely put.
Possibly not relevant to the Brexit referendum though. You bloody hippy.
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| on 14:31 - Nov 30 with 2856 views | _ |
| Brexit cl@sterf@ck thoughts #13,432; Trump downfall begins on 14:08 - Nov 30 by Pinewoodblue |
Ryorry is right. Democracy is not about getting your own way. Democracy is the only looser if people believe if they make enough noise they will get a chance to overturn a democratic decision.
If you are looking for someone to call a thicko find a mirror. |
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| Brexit cl@sterf@ck thoughts #13,432; Trump downfall begins on 14:36 - Nov 30 with 2846 views | giant_stow |
| Brexit cl@sterf@ck thoughts #13,432; Trump downfall begins on 14:30 - Nov 30 by Dyland |
Nicely put.
Possibly not relevant to the Brexit referendum though. You bloody hippy.
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| Brexit cl@sterf@ck thoughts #13,432; Trump downfall begins on 14:41 - Nov 30 with 2831 views | Ryorry |
| Brexit cl@sterf@ck thoughts #13,432; Trump downfall begins on 14:29 - Nov 30 by SpruceMoose |
I'll never be up for shutting down debate or protest. That's the heart of democracy.
We know far more about the lies that were told in the referendum campaign. We now know that there was a high likelihood of outside interference. We have an actual deal on the table with details we can judge (if May gets it through that is, if not then we will have a no deal type Brexit on the table).
We know far more now about the realities of Brexit. For those Remainers who are set against another vote should it come to pass I would suggest, just don't vote if it bothers you that much. But please, don't get in the way of those of us who do wish to have a final say |
I can see where you're coming from and, as a remainer, that's where my heart lies too - but it would just be so wrong for all the reasons Guthers said so much better than me (including what on earth question would you put on the ballot paper that doesn't make for even more chaos & confusion). Unfortunately, despite a 10-minute search, I can't find his post - it may have been much further back in time, albeit not more than a month - perhaps he can help out if he gets back and reads this. | |
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| Brexit cl@sterf@ck thoughts #13,432; Trump downfall begins on 14:42 - Nov 30 with 2830 views | ITFC_Aylesbury |
| Brexit cl@sterf@ck thoughts #13,432; Trump downfall begins on 13:57 - Nov 30 by Ryorry |
So every 3 months on from a GE, when things have also always changed, have another one!! |
But we're not 3 months down the road at all. We're going to be getting on for 3 years down the road.
And things haven't shifted to the side slightly. It's changed beyond all recognition. One minute it's about sunlit uplands and unicorns for all, now it's about having enough food to get by! |  | | |
| Brexit cl@sterf@ck thoughts #13,432; Trump downfall begins on 14:49 - Nov 30 with 2823 views | Ryorry |
| Brexit cl@sterf@ck thoughts #13,432; Trump downfall begins on 14:29 - Nov 30 by SpruceMoose |
I'll never be up for shutting down debate or protest. That's the heart of democracy.
We know far more about the lies that were told in the referendum campaign. We now know that there was a high likelihood of outside interference. We have an actual deal on the table with details we can judge (if May gets it through that is, if not then we will have a no deal type Brexit on the table).
We know far more now about the realities of Brexit. For those Remainers who are set against another vote should it come to pass I would suggest, just don't vote if it bothers you that much. But please, don't get in the way of those of us who do wish to have a final say |
Found Guthers' post, it was actually the first reply, on p1, to my own poll, haha!
Hope he doesn't mind me linking/reproducing it - apols if so Guthers, will edit it out -
Do you think there should b a "Peoples' Vote" on Brexit? by Guthrum 27 Nov 2018 0:14Depends what the vote is on. Is there actually likely to be a majority for any deal which might realistically be put forward? How many people have read the full 585 page document, let alone understood it? How many understand the implications of there being no transitional or long-term deals in place come April 2019? Are we going to have another simplistic sloganeering match beforehand?
In that case, the deal would be rejected and we'd simply be left back at square one with even less time to sort something out. Plus the EU has been pretty clear there isn't a lot of room for flexibility in their position.
If "Remain after all" was on the ballot as a third option, that would further muddy the waters. What if that had the largest individual share, but was outnumbered by different types of Leavers combined?
I can see both that and any Parliamentary vote being a mess and doing nothing to clear the situation up, with four months to go until time runs out.
[Post edited 30 Nov 2018 14:50]
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| Brexit cl@sterf@ck thoughts #13,432; Trump downfall begins on 14:53 - Nov 30 with 2810 views | SpruceMoose |
| Brexit cl@sterf@ck thoughts #13,432; Trump downfall begins on 14:49 - Nov 30 by Ryorry |
Found Guthers' post, it was actually the first reply, on p1, to my own poll, haha!
Hope he doesn't mind me linking/reproducing it - apols if so Guthers, will edit it out -
Do you think there should b a "Peoples' Vote" on Brexit? by Guthrum 27 Nov 2018 0:14Depends what the vote is on. Is there actually likely to be a majority for any deal which might realistically be put forward? How many people have read the full 585 page document, let alone understood it? How many understand the implications of there being no transitional or long-term deals in place come April 2019? Are we going to have another simplistic sloganeering match beforehand?
In that case, the deal would be rejected and we'd simply be left back at square one with even less time to sort something out. Plus the EU has been pretty clear there isn't a lot of room for flexibility in their position.
If "Remain after all" was on the ballot as a third option, that would further muddy the waters. What if that had the largest individual share, but was outnumbered by different types of Leavers combined?
I can see both that and any Parliamentary vote being a mess and doing nothing to clear the situation up, with four months to go until time runs out.
[Post edited 30 Nov 2018 14:50]
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As ever, I hold Guthers in the highest of regard, and his questions certainly have validity. But, they could have all been applied to the initial referendum except we knew even less then, and yet we went ahead with it. We've gone down this path, may as well see it to its conclusion. | |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| Brexit cl@sterf@ck thoughts #13,432; Trump downfall begins on 15:00 - Nov 30 with 2805 views | Ryorry |
| Brexit cl@sterf@ck thoughts #13,432; Trump downfall begins on 14:53 - Nov 30 by SpruceMoose |
As ever, I hold Guthers in the highest of regard, and his questions certainly have validity. But, they could have all been applied to the initial referendum except we knew even less then, and yet we went ahead with it. We've gone down this path, may as well see it to its conclusion. |
I've said in the past (as I think you have too?) that the Ref should never have been held in the first place, & the only reasons for it being put forward were Cameron & Farage's nefarious agendas. | |
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| Brexit cl@sterf@ck thoughts #13,432; Trump downfall begins on 15:04 - Nov 30 with 2799 views | SpruceMoose |
| Brexit cl@sterf@ck thoughts #13,432; Trump downfall begins on 15:00 - Nov 30 by Ryorry |
I've said in the past (as I think you have too?) that the Ref should never have been held in the first place, & the only reasons for it being put forward were Cameron & Farage's nefarious agendas. |
Yep, I never wanted one. People on both sides couldn't be trusted to put aside their preconceptions, let alone realistically understand what the hell was even being offered. I include myself in that.
Cameron can burn in the same fiery hell as Thatcher and Blair when his time comes as far as I'm concerned. He's wrecked the futures of the next generation. [Post edited 30 Nov 2018 15:04]
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| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| Brexit cl@sterf@ck thoughts #13,432; Trump downfall begins on 15:11 - Nov 30 with 2789 views | ITFC_Aylesbury |
| Brexit cl@sterf@ck thoughts #13,432; Trump downfall begins on 15:04 - Nov 30 by SpruceMoose |
Yep, I never wanted one. People on both sides couldn't be trusted to put aside their preconceptions, let alone realistically understand what the hell was even being offered. I include myself in that.
Cameron can burn in the same fiery hell as Thatcher and Blair when his time comes as far as I'm concerned. He's wrecked the futures of the next generation. [Post edited 30 Nov 2018 15:04]
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While I'm more than happy to condemn Cameron for opening Pandora's Brexity Box, don't you feel there ought to be a fair amount of blame at the following:
Farage.
Boris.
Gove.
JRM.
Banks.
Murdoch.
The general public.
Cameron opened the door, but the above gleefully waved the bottom one through with promises of unicorns and fairies, made of paper and dreams. | | | |
| Brexit cl@sterf@ck thoughts #13,432; Trump downfall begins on 15:27 - Nov 30 with 2779 views | SpruceMoose |
| Brexit cl@sterf@ck thoughts #13,432; Trump downfall begins on 15:11 - Nov 30 by ITFC_Aylesbury |
While I'm more than happy to condemn Cameron for opening Pandora's Brexity Box, don't you feel there ought to be a fair amount of blame at the following:
Farage.
Boris.
Gove.
JRM.
Banks.
Murdoch.
The general public.
Cameron opened the door, but the above gleefully waved the bottom one through with promises of unicorns and fairies, made of paper and dreams. |
Sure, stick them all down there in the pit of despair. I'm done with the lot of them. | |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| Brexit cl@sterf@ck thoughts #13,432; Trump downfall begins on 15:27 - Nov 30 with 2780 views | Jonnosdreadlocks |
| Brexit cl@sterf@ck thoughts #13,432; Trump downfall begins on 09:24 - Nov 30 by Swansea_Blue |
Yep, he's normalised lying and built such a fanatical fanbase that I doubt anything could rock him. I fully expect him to get in next term and go the distance.
American's can be amazing people, but there are also a large number who have a screw loose. A bit like anywhere else I suppose.
Edit - nice avatar btw. Is it a Banksy? [Post edited 30 Nov 2018 9:25]
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'normalised lying';. hmmh, like Bill Clinton? Oh wait, he was a saint who did not inhale. The great thing about Trump is that 'his fanatical fanbase' as you put it are the blue collar working class of all ethnicities white, black, hispanic. He piss es off the left Hollywood media luvvies because of his abrupt nature and its great just like the US economy is now despite all the sniping from the MSM. Deplorable that someone would want to put their country first than bend over and be run by the likes of the EU. Wish we had a leader like that than career politicians like the Maybot and Comrad Corbyn who would stab their own grannies if it meant power, putting their pathetic parties ahead of what the majority of people voted for, changing their tune every 5 minutes. |  |
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| Brexit cl@sterf@ck thoughts #13,432; Trump downfall begins on 15:36 - Nov 30 with 2770 views | SpruceMoose |
| Brexit cl@sterf@ck thoughts #13,432; Trump downfall begins on 15:27 - Nov 30 by Jonnosdreadlocks |
'normalised lying';. hmmh, like Bill Clinton? Oh wait, he was a saint who did not inhale. The great thing about Trump is that 'his fanatical fanbase' as you put it are the blue collar working class of all ethnicities white, black, hispanic. He piss es off the left Hollywood media luvvies because of his abrupt nature and its great just like the US economy is now despite all the sniping from the MSM. Deplorable that someone would want to put their country first than bend over and be run by the likes of the EU. Wish we had a leader like that than career politicians like the Maybot and Comrad Corbyn who would stab their own grannies if it meant power, putting their pathetic parties ahead of what the majority of people voted for, changing their tune every 5 minutes. |
Do you mind, the grown ups are talking here. | |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| Brexit cl@sterf@ck thoughts #13,432; Trump downfall begins on 15:51 - Nov 30 with 2764 views | chicoazul |
BTW I do not understand at all why Remainers arent whole-heartedly behind the May deal. |  |
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| Brexit cl@sterf@ck thoughts #13,432; Trump downfall begins on 15:52 - Nov 30 with 2759 views | chicoazul |
| Brexit cl@sterf@ck thoughts #13,432; Trump downfall begins on 14:20 - Nov 30 by giant_stow |
people making enough noise to get their own way is the very essence of democracy!
The opposite of democracy is having one vote close off all future votes - that's how dictators come to power. |
that, friend, is why liberty & freedom must always be protected from democracy. | |
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| Brexit cl@sterf@ck thoughts #13,432; Trump downfall begins on 15:53 - Nov 30 with 2757 views | lowhouseblue |
| Brexit cl@sterf@ck thoughts #13,432; Trump downfall begins on 15:51 - Nov 30 by chicoazul |
BTW I do not understand at all why Remainers arent whole-heartedly behind the May deal. |
yes you do. it's because they still think they can overturn the referendum that they lost. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Brexit cl@sterf@ck thoughts #13,432; Trump downfall begins on 15:54 - Nov 30 with 2757 views | SpruceMoose |
| Brexit cl@sterf@ck thoughts #13,432; Trump downfall begins on 15:51 - Nov 30 by chicoazul |
BTW I do not understand at all why Remainers arent whole-heartedly behind the May deal. |
Because it doesn't involve remaining in the EU possibly... | |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| Brexit cl@sterf@ck thoughts #13,432; Trump downfall begins on 15:58 - Nov 30 with 2753 views | caught-in-limbo |
| Brexit cl@sterf@ck thoughts #13,432; Trump downfall begins on 14:29 - Nov 30 by SpruceMoose |
I'll never be up for shutting down debate or protest. That's the heart of democracy.
We know far more about the lies that were told in the referendum campaign. We now know that there was a high likelihood of outside interference. We have an actual deal on the table with details we can judge (if May gets it through that is, if not then we will have a no deal type Brexit on the table).
We know far more now about the realities of Brexit. For those Remainers who are set against another vote should it come to pass I would suggest, just don't vote if it bothers you that much. But please, don't get in the way of those of us who do wish to have a final say |
"We now know that there was a high likelihood of outside interference"
Who, what and how? |  |
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| Brexit cl@sterf@ck thoughts #13,432; Trump downfall begins on 16:01 - Nov 30 with 2745 views | chicoazul |
| Brexit cl@sterf@ck thoughts #13,432; Trump downfall begins on 15:53 - Nov 30 by lowhouseblue |
yes you do. it's because they still think they can overturn the referendum that they lost. |
Ah maybe. But I think the likes of Blair Chuka and Heseltine are done with that delusion and there is no place for a significant fourth party in British politics. This deal is, basically, staying in the EU so I don't know why Remainers arent petitioning in their droves their MPs to vote for it. | |
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| Brexit cl@sterf@ck thoughts #13,432; Trump downfall begins on 16:01 - Nov 30 with 2745 views | SpruceMoose |
| Brexit cl@sterf@ck thoughts #13,432; Trump downfall begins on 15:58 - Nov 30 by caught-in-limbo |
"We now know that there was a high likelihood of outside interference"
Who, what and how? |
Thought that might grab your attention. | |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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