| Comparing now with the team of 2018/19 07:12 - Jun 18 with 3466 views | PioneerBlue |
…. now we can see where it all went wrong!
This was our Aug opening game squad versus BR at home.
In fairness, there was a sprinkling of talent in there, but it was a shocker, a mashup squad. This group managed 5 wins all season ffs. It infuriates to reflect back.
I don’t know whether there is a team as bad as this in the current Champ?
We now have a team, squad that’s actually focused, with leaders in the board room, on the coaching staff, a captain and others through the pitch. Compare captains then and now, the proverbial good guy with loads of time for people off the pitch versus warrior leader of men with delivery on the pitch!
I’m counting only Bart as an equal versus today starting XI. Whilst Chalobah and Downes have obviously gone on to greatness, they were still raw talents back then compared with the players we have now in those positions.
The Formidable bench is a place where we can improve but it compares favourably now to then, this summer is important to improve our starting XI and will mean players the likes of Donacien, Leigh, Ball, Ladapo, Harness and potentially some of last seasons starting XI players can come off the bench or back up for injuries compared with Roberts, Kenlock and Morris.
The spineless relegation squad
Bart
Spence
Donacien
Chambers
Knudsen
Skuse
Chalobah
Downes
Edwards
Harrison
Sears
The Formidable Bench
Gerken
Roberts
Dozzell
Edun
Kenlock
Wolf
Morris
[Post edited 18 Jun 2023 14:40]
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| Comparing now with the team of 2018/19 on 07:20 - Jun 18 with 3018 views | Freddies_Ears |
Great post. Even at gk, I don't think we are any weaker now, and the rest of the side is a real notch up. It may take a bit if time to get used to the better quality of Championship football, though. In League 1, there were several sides on £2m or lower budgets, and we did benefit from less-than-lethal oppo strikers. But we have more than enough to succeed, and I sense a real determination, throughout the club. | | | |
| Comparing now with the team of 2018/19 on 08:39 - Jun 18 with 2845 views | tractordownsouth |
Not only did we only get five wins, but two of them came after we'd already been relegated. |  |
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| Comparing now with the team of 2018/19 on 08:45 - Jun 18 with 2806 views | Stewart27 |
| Comparing now with the team of 2018/19 on 07:20 - Jun 18 by Freddies_Ears |
Great post. Even at gk, I don't think we are any weaker now, and the rest of the side is a real notch up. It may take a bit if time to get used to the better quality of Championship football, though. In League 1, there were several sides on £2m or lower budgets, and we did benefit from less-than-lethal oppo strikers. But we have more than enough to succeed, and I sense a real determination, throughout the club. |
Bart’s performances that season was the worst I’ve ever seen a town keeper produce over a season. He let us down when we needed him most. | | | |
| Comparing now with the team of 2018/19 on 08:46 - Jun 18 with 2809 views | Stewart27 |
I remember being 10 minutes into that season at a scorching hot Portman road thinking that this was the new dawn. | | | |
| Comparing now with the team of 2018/19 on 09:21 - Jun 18 with 2732 views | Simonds92 |
If we're looking at this objectively:
- Chambers was a better Cb than Burgess
- Knudsen was an international player and proven at a higher level than Leif (who is likely to go beyond Champ football but he's not there yet)
- Downes was already a good player who had a decent season under mick the year before. Arguably a better player than Morsy but didnt have that drive to go beyond people, which is crucial to how we play.
- Walton is an improvement on Bart.
- Everywhere else we are in a better place. | | | |
| Comparing now with the team of 2018/19 on 09:33 - Jun 18 with 2687 views | PioneerBlue |
| Comparing now with the team of 2018/19 on 09:21 - Jun 18 by Simonds92 |
If we're looking at this objectively:
- Chambers was a better Cb than Burgess
- Knudsen was an international player and proven at a higher level than Leif (who is likely to go beyond Champ football but he's not there yet)
- Downes was already a good player who had a decent season under mick the year before. Arguably a better player than Morsy but didnt have that drive to go beyond people, which is crucial to how we play.
- Walton is an improvement on Bart.
- Everywhere else we are in a better place. |
Thanks for objective views.
- Chambers was a better Cb than Burgess
:: what objective measure? Time in Championship, Captain?
- Knudsen was an international player and proven at a higher level than Leif (who is likely to go beyond Champ football but he's not there yet)
:: Knudsen wasn’t all that and didn’t offer anything going forwards
- Downes was already a good player who had a decent season under mick the year before. Arguably a better player than Morsy but didnt have that drive to go beyond people, which is crucial to how we play
:: apologies but that’s rubbish at time of comparison, Morsy is an experienced pro with international game time
- Walton is an improvement on Bart
:: not sure about that but it is close comp and both are very good; Walton still has potential to get back to the prem
- Everywhere else we are in a better place.
:: hard to disagree we were a team of misfits and the bench was lacking quality [Post edited 18 Jun 2023 14:44]
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| Comparing now with the team of 2018/19 on 09:51 - Jun 18 with 2648 views | Guthrum |
| Comparing now with the team of 2018/19 on 09:33 - Jun 18 by PioneerBlue |
Thanks for objective views.
- Chambers was a better Cb than Burgess
:: what objective measure? Time in Championship, Captain?
- Knudsen was an international player and proven at a higher level than Leif (who is likely to go beyond Champ football but he's not there yet)
:: Knudsen wasn’t all that and didn’t offer anything going forwards
- Downes was already a good player who had a decent season under mick the year before. Arguably a better player than Morsy but didnt have that drive to go beyond people, which is crucial to how we play
:: apologies but that’s rubbish at time of comparison, Morsy is an experienced pro with international game time
- Walton is an improvement on Bart
:: not sure about that but it is close comp and both are very good; Walton still has potential to get back to the prem
- Everywhere else we are in a better place.
:: hard to disagree we were a team of misfits and the bench was lacking quality [Post edited 18 Jun 2023 14:44]
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By the time he was 27, Chambers had already made nearly 200 appearances in the Championship. Burgess has four.
That's not to say the latter doesn't have the potential to play the rest of his career at a higher level (especially as part of McKenna's Ipswich environment), but he hasn't made the step up until now. |  |
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| Comparing now with the team of 2018/19 on 09:58 - Jun 18 with 2616 views | Simonds92 |
| Comparing now with the team of 2018/19 on 09:33 - Jun 18 by PioneerBlue |
Thanks for objective views.
- Chambers was a better Cb than Burgess
:: what objective measure? Time in Championship, Captain?
- Knudsen was an international player and proven at a higher level than Leif (who is likely to go beyond Champ football but he's not there yet)
:: Knudsen wasn’t all that and didn’t offer anything going forwards
- Downes was already a good player who had a decent season under mick the year before. Arguably a better player than Morsy but didnt have that drive to go beyond people, which is crucial to how we play
:: apologies but that’s rubbish at time of comparison, Morsy is an experienced pro with international game time
- Walton is an improvement on Bart
:: not sure about that but it is close comp and both are very good; Walton still has potential to get back to the prem
- Everywhere else we are in a better place.
:: hard to disagree we were a team of misfits and the bench was lacking quality [Post edited 18 Jun 2023 14:44]
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The disrespect Chambers gets is really ridiculous. He played 455 championship games, to be able to do that you have to be a very decent player. By comparison Burgess has 4 championship appearances.
Morsy is fantastic in our current team with how we play, and may be better than that version of Downes in this particular set up. However in a different set up, such as the flat 3 in the middle we played in that game is he any better? If you're looking at the perspective of another championship club, assessing our squad from the outside, he's never been anything more than an ok championship midfielder.
Knudsen had a better pedigree whether you like it or not. Davis, although very impressive, hasn't had a real defensive test this past season. Im sure he will grow and become the better player but Knudsen was definitely no mug. | | | |
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| Comparing now with the team of 2018/19 on 10:00 - Jun 18 with 2599 views | ronnyd |
| Comparing now with the team of 2018/19 on 09:33 - Jun 18 by PioneerBlue |
Thanks for objective views.
- Chambers was a better Cb than Burgess
:: what objective measure? Time in Championship, Captain?
- Knudsen was an international player and proven at a higher level than Leif (who is likely to go beyond Champ football but he's not there yet)
:: Knudsen wasn’t all that and didn’t offer anything going forwards
- Downes was already a good player who had a decent season under mick the year before. Arguably a better player than Morsy but didnt have that drive to go beyond people, which is crucial to how we play
:: apologies but that’s rubbish at time of comparison, Morsy is an experienced pro with international game time
- Walton is an improvement on Bart
:: not sure about that but it is close comp and both are very good; Walton still has potential to get back to the prem
- Everywhere else we are in a better place.
:: hard to disagree we were a team of misfits and the bench was lacking quality [Post edited 18 Jun 2023 14:44]
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Yet another poster who puts in an opinion and then gets defensive when someone dares to slightly disagree. | | | |
| Comparing now with the team of 2018/19 on 10:22 - Jun 18 with 2552 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Comparing now with the team of 2018/19 on 09:21 - Jun 18 by Simonds92 |
If we're looking at this objectively:
- Chambers was a better Cb than Burgess
- Knudsen was an international player and proven at a higher level than Leif (who is likely to go beyond Champ football but he's not there yet)
- Downes was already a good player who had a decent season under mick the year before. Arguably a better player than Morsy but didnt have that drive to go beyond people, which is crucial to how we play.
- Walton is an improvement on Bart.
- Everywhere else we are in a better place. |
Knudsen was very limited and not proven anywhere.
Being a Danish international, given the level of the Danish team, is not a great indicator. | | | |
| Comparing now with the team of 2018/19 on 10:25 - Jun 18 with 2537 views | Vic |
Had that team be properly coached it wouldn’t have been as bad as it was.
Bart was a v good GK (and has proved it since)
Chambers - easily as good at the time as Burgess is now.
Knudsen - a decent, stead, championship defender. A better defender than Lief, but not as good going forward.
Skuse, Chalobah and Downes - a very decent midfield who should have complemented each other really well. Not far short of what we have now.
The front three are the big, big downgrade on what we have now.
I’d say there was also some good potential on the bench in Dozzer, Woolfie and Morris. I remember Wolf looked class when he came on in that game, and Morris didn’t look bad either.
So for me the big, big difference is the coaching - or lack of it. |  |
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| Comparing now with the team of 2018/19 on 10:38 - Jun 18 with 2497 views | franz_tyson |
| Comparing now with the team of 2018/19 on 09:21 - Jun 18 by Simonds92 |
If we're looking at this objectively:
- Chambers was a better Cb than Burgess
- Knudsen was an international player and proven at a higher level than Leif (who is likely to go beyond Champ football but he's not there yet)
- Downes was already a good player who had a decent season under mick the year before. Arguably a better player than Morsy but didnt have that drive to go beyond people, which is crucial to how we play.
- Walton is an improvement on Bart.
- Everywhere else we are in a better place. |
Downes didn't have a decent season with Mick a year before. He was loaned out to Luton in L2 in January 2018.
For me, Downes only came into his own as a player for us in that first season in L1. | | | |
| Comparing now with the team of 2018/19 on 10:40 - Jun 18 with 2493 views | ParisBlue |
To be fair we hadn't strengthened with the signings of Nolan, Nsiala or Jackson by this point. Or Pennington and Jordan Graham on loan.
Having lost Webster, Garner, Waghorn, McGoldrick, Celina, Connolly, Carter-Vickers [Post edited 18 Jun 2023 11:07]
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| Comparing now with the team of 2018/19 on 10:48 - Jun 18 with 2462 views | franz_tyson |
| Comparing now with the team of 2018/19 on 10:25 - Jun 18 by Vic |
Had that team be properly coached it wouldn’t have been as bad as it was.
Bart was a v good GK (and has proved it since)
Chambers - easily as good at the time as Burgess is now.
Knudsen - a decent, stead, championship defender. A better defender than Lief, but not as good going forward.
Skuse, Chalobah and Downes - a very decent midfield who should have complemented each other really well. Not far short of what we have now.
The front three are the big, big downgrade on what we have now.
I’d say there was also some good potential on the bench in Dozzer, Woolfie and Morris. I remember Wolf looked class when he came on in that game, and Morris didn’t look bad either.
So for me the big, big difference is the coaching - or lack of it. |
Not sure that the Chalobah and Downes THEN and them NOW are comparable. They were as raw as hell at the time. Skuse did his thing, but we needed someone in there both more robust and who could drive us forward. In the same way that Luongo added that from February onwards. I would say its a pretty poor midfield in that Downes/ Chalobah were learning their trade and couldn't control midfield and Skuse was someone who needed someone around him to provide that impetus and thrust around him. | | | |
| Comparing now with the team of 2018/19 on 10:48 - Jun 18 with 2460 views | PioneerBlue |
| Comparing now with the team of 2018/19 on 09:58 - Jun 18 by Simonds92 |
The disrespect Chambers gets is really ridiculous. He played 455 championship games, to be able to do that you have to be a very decent player. By comparison Burgess has 4 championship appearances.
Morsy is fantastic in our current team with how we play, and may be better than that version of Downes in this particular set up. However in a different set up, such as the flat 3 in the middle we played in that game is he any better? If you're looking at the perspective of another championship club, assessing our squad from the outside, he's never been anything more than an ok championship midfielder.
Knudsen had a better pedigree whether you like it or not. Davis, although very impressive, hasn't had a real defensive test this past season. Im sure he will grow and become the better player but Knudsen was definitely no mug. |
We are not talking about a different set up.
Go back to OP.
Comparison then v now. It’s fine you feel Chambo was better then than Burgess is now, I disagree. Chambers was poor in that final season. Morsy is miles ahead of where Downes was in that season also. [Post edited 18 Jun 2023 11:14]
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| Comparing now with the team of 2018/19 on 10:49 - Jun 18 with 2454 views | PioneerBlue |
| Comparing now with the team of 2018/19 on 10:25 - Jun 18 by Vic |
Had that team be properly coached it wouldn’t have been as bad as it was.
Bart was a v good GK (and has proved it since)
Chambers - easily as good at the time as Burgess is now.
Knudsen - a decent, stead, championship defender. A better defender than Lief, but not as good going forward.
Skuse, Chalobah and Downes - a very decent midfield who should have complemented each other really well. Not far short of what we have now.
The front three are the big, big downgrade on what we have now.
I’d say there was also some good potential on the bench in Dozzer, Woolfie and Morris. I remember Wolf looked class when he came on in that game, and Morris didn’t look bad either.
So for me the big, big difference is the coaching - or lack of it. |
It was what it was. The comparison is total then v now! | |
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| Comparing now with the team of 2018/19 on 10:50 - Jun 18 with 2450 views | PioneerBlue |
| Comparing now with the team of 2018/19 on 10:00 - Jun 18 by ronnyd |
Yet another poster who puts in an opinion and then gets defensive when someone dares to slightly disagree. |
Tee he | |
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| Comparing now with the team of 2018/19 on 10:52 - Jun 18 with 2443 views | PioneerBlue |
| Comparing now with the team of 2018/19 on 10:48 - Jun 18 by franz_tyson |
Not sure that the Chalobah and Downes THEN and them NOW are comparable. They were as raw as hell at the time. Skuse did his thing, but we needed someone in there both more robust and who could drive us forward. In the same way that Luongo added that from February onwards. I would say its a pretty poor midfield in that Downes/ Chalobah were learning their trade and couldn't control midfield and Skuse was someone who needed someone around him to provide that impetus and thrust around him. |
Absolutely on point of original post [Post edited 18 Jun 2023 11:15]
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| Comparing now with the team of 2018/19 on 11:06 - Jun 18 with 2382 views | Simonds92 |
| Comparing now with the team of 2018/19 on 10:48 - Jun 18 by PioneerBlue |
We are not talking about a different set up.
Go back to OP.
Comparison then v now. It’s fine you feel Chambo was better then than Burgess is now, I disagree. Chambers was poor in that final season. Morsy is miles ahead of where Downes was in that season also. [Post edited 18 Jun 2023 11:14]
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Why are we putting those players in the current system and not vice versa? You're comparing the 2 teams, I'm just saying if we had these players in the 18/19 formation then Downes and Morsy is debatable. I think that Morsy is more important to us than Luongo but Massimo is a bit more dynamic and therefore definitely gets in that 18/19 midfield with 3 similar sitting midfielders who rarely get forward. As someone correctly pointed out he didnt actually have a good season under Mick the season before (i just remember him playing Barnsley that season and being absolutely fantastic) so I can absolutely understand why you wouldnt want to have Downes in ahead of Morsy but if you suddenly say Downes is playing with Luongo with Chaplin ahead of him, I'd have rather we had Downes than signing Morsy at the start of that season. | | | |
| Comparing now with the team of 2018/19 on 11:13 - Jun 18 with 2355 views | Simonds92 |
| Comparing now with the team of 2018/19 on 11:06 - Jun 18 by Simonds92 |
Why are we putting those players in the current system and not vice versa? You're comparing the 2 teams, I'm just saying if we had these players in the 18/19 formation then Downes and Morsy is debatable. I think that Morsy is more important to us than Luongo but Massimo is a bit more dynamic and therefore definitely gets in that 18/19 midfield with 3 similar sitting midfielders who rarely get forward. As someone correctly pointed out he didnt actually have a good season under Mick the season before (i just remember him playing Barnsley that season and being absolutely fantastic) so I can absolutely understand why you wouldnt want to have Downes in ahead of Morsy but if you suddenly say Downes is playing with Luongo with Chaplin ahead of him, I'd have rather we had Downes than signing Morsy at the start of that season. |
Also as someone else posted, the coaching is something that is a massive step up and the fact we have happy players in a positive place rather than coaches getting stuck in to them and telling them they are terrible. | | | |
| Comparing now with the team of 2018/19 on 18:38 - Jun 18 with 2051 views | cbower |
| Comparing now with the team of 2018/19 on 10:40 - Jun 18 by ParisBlue |
To be fair we hadn't strengthened with the signings of Nolan, Nsiala or Jackson by this point. Or Pennington and Jordan Graham on loan.
Having lost Webster, Garner, Waghorn, McGoldrick, Celina, Connolly, Carter-Vickers [Post edited 18 Jun 2023 11:07]
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Oh this is spot on! To use the word 'strengthening', i like it. |  |
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| Comparing now with the team of 2018/19 on 19:16 - Jun 18 with 1983 views | Herbivore |
| Comparing now with the team of 2018/19 on 10:22 - Jun 18 by redrickstuhaart |
Knudsen was very limited and not proven anywhere.
Being a Danish international, given the level of the Danish team, is not a great indicator. |
The level of the Danish team? They lost to finalists Croatia on penalties in the knockout stages of the 2018 World Cup (with Knudsen in their squad) and went on to make the semis at the Euros after that. They're a decent side. |  |
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| Comparing now with the team of 2018/19 on 19:43 - Jun 18 with 1943 views | PioneerBlue |
| Comparing now with the team of 2018/19 on 11:13 - Jun 18 by Simonds92 |
Also as someone else posted, the coaching is something that is a massive step up and the fact we have happy players in a positive place rather than coaches getting stuck in to them and telling them they are terrible. |
I don’t disagree with you, they would have been better but that’s not the comparison, the coaching we have now only contributes to the strengths we have now.
In the OP, it’s set out that the leadership from the boardroom right through the club today is incomparable to what was going on then. I’m not comparing the team then with the back room of today, that’s a different thread! | |
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| Comparing now with the team of 2018/19 on 22:09 - Jun 18 with 1686 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Comparing now with the team of 2018/19 on 19:16 - Jun 18 by Herbivore |
The level of the Danish team? They lost to finalists Croatia on penalties in the knockout stages of the 2018 World Cup (with Knudsen in their squad) and went on to make the semis at the Euros after that. They're a decent side. |
That does not mean Knudsen was a fine player. He was desperately limited. | | | |
| Comparing now with the team of 2018/19 on 22:25 - Jun 18 with 1644 views | Herbivore |
| Comparing now with the team of 2018/19 on 22:09 - Jun 18 by redrickstuhaart |
That does not mean Knudsen was a fine player. He was desperately limited. |
That he's racked up a decent number of European performances since leaving us and represented a good Denmark side in the 2018 World Cup would suggest otherwise, but that's a separate debate. Tell me again about the quality of the Denmark side. [Post edited 18 Jun 2023 22:26]
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