| Oceangate sub 07:49 - Jun 23 with 4041 views | ArnieM |
Sorry if this ends up on the football forum. I’m in the general forum when writing / posting this. Do hope it stays where I think I am.
Just been listening to the reports coming out re this “ accident” which has killed 5 people. Seems increasing evident that OG could be in line for a corporate manslaughter charge, once the dust has settled a little. They’ve clearly ignored communications from submariner expertise that their vessel Titan was unsafe, using unproven materials (carbon hull), incorrect shape to withstand pressure (to facilitate getting more paying customers in!!), and basic H&S checks ignored.
My thoughts are with the families of those who died so needlessly, but I hope they have the strength to take litigation and get the book thrown at this Company. As an expert in the field stated, if you’re paying to take a ride in a sub (or any vehicle), you are expecting that vessel to be fit for purpose and meeting industry regulations and be safe. As a “customer” it’s not your role to ensure that vehicles safety credentials.
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| Oceangate sub on 08:01 - Jun 23 with 2568 views | cressi |
Sad but mad these clever rich people rely on a PlayStation remote with AA batteries to navigate to go two miles down no GPS bolted in from outside. |  | | |
| Oceangate sub on 08:09 - Jun 23 with 2524 views | Guthrum |
The company rather side-stepped the issue by classing the Titan as an "experimental" design, plus having crew members sign extensive waivers before boarding. That is an area which may get tightened up after this incident, however it is in international waters and there are countries who don't want too much regulation there.
p.s. When starting a new thread, there is an option at the bottom to click which dictates whether it goes into "football" or "general". Edit: It defaults to "football", but you can go into edit to move it, if the original poster. [Post edited 23 Jun 2023 8:39]
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| Oceangate sub on 08:10 - Jun 23 with 2511 views | IpswichKnight |
| Oceangate sub on 08:01 - Jun 23 by cressi |
Sad but mad these clever rich people rely on a PlayStation remote with AA batteries to navigate to go two miles down no GPS bolted in from outside. |
The latest Virginia class US submarines rely on the same controllers to control their submarines and I fully expect the UK Dreadnaughts being built currently will follow suit. | | | |
| Oceangate sub on 08:11 - Jun 23 with 2500 views | Guthrum |
| Oceangate sub on 08:01 - Jun 23 by cressi |
Sad but mad these clever rich people rely on a PlayStation remote with AA batteries to navigate to go two miles down no GPS bolted in from outside. |
The controller was not anything to do with what went wrong and GPS doen't work deep underwater. Being able to open the door wouldn't have helped at that depth, either. | |
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| Oceangate sub on 08:14 - Jun 23 with 2470 views | DanTheMan |
| Oceangate sub on 08:10 - Jun 23 by IpswichKnight |
The latest Virginia class US submarines rely on the same controllers to control their submarines and I fully expect the UK Dreadnaughts being built currently will follow suit. |
I don't know why people are obsessing over that bit of the story and not the fact the actual sub was made out of bad materials.
According to the suit, Mr Lochridge delivered highly critical updates regarding the ship’s quality control to senior management and OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush, pointing to alleged issues such as “visible flaws” in the ship’s carbon fibre hull, “prevalent flaws” in a scale model, flammable materials onboard, a viewing window not rated for the Titanic’s depth, and key safety documents that were not shared with him.
That all sounds far, far worse. |  |
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| Oceangate sub on 08:16 - Jun 23 with 2462 views | Swansea_Blue |
Not only ignored concerned in the industry, but sacked an employee who raised concerns the design wasn’t up to standard and then paid them off. |  |
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| Oceangate sub on 08:18 - Jun 23 with 2448 views | Guthrum |
| Oceangate sub on 08:10 - Jun 23 by IpswichKnight |
The latest Virginia class US submarines rely on the same controllers to control their submarines and I fully expect the UK Dreadnaughts being built currently will follow suit. |
Given it's simply an electronic device which sends signals based on a joystick and a few buttons, why expensively design your own when perfectly good ones can be bought off the shelf? Indeed, the game controller was specifically created to do the job required, operating a vehicle in a three-dimensional space (albeit virtual rather than real, but the distinction there is purely academic). | |
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| Oceangate sub on 08:20 - Jun 23 with 2438 views | Guthrum |
| Oceangate sub on 08:14 - Jun 23 by DanTheMan |
I don't know why people are obsessing over that bit of the story and not the fact the actual sub was made out of bad materials.
According to the suit, Mr Lochridge delivered highly critical updates regarding the ship’s quality control to senior management and OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush, pointing to alleged issues such as “visible flaws” in the ship’s carbon fibre hull, “prevalent flaws” in a scale model, flammable materials onboard, a viewing window not rated for the Titanic’s depth, and key safety documents that were not shared with him.
That all sounds far, far worse. |
Absolutely. Not to mention that carbon fibre was considered by many experts not to be a suitable material in the first place. | |
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| Oceangate sub on 08:21 - Jun 23 with 2431 views | IpswichKnight |
| Oceangate sub on 08:18 - Jun 23 by Guthrum |
Given it's simply an electronic device which sends signals based on a joystick and a few buttons, why expensively design your own when perfectly good ones can be bought off the shelf? Indeed, the game controller was specifically created to do the job required, operating a vehicle in a three-dimensional space (albeit virtual rather than real, but the distinction there is purely academic). |
Sailors are way more likely to be familiar with those controllers than expensive Boeing style aircraft type controllers! Significant cost savings in training and space! | | | |
| Oceangate sub on 08:49 - Jun 23 with 2283 views | homer_123 |
Given the CEO of Oceangate lost his life in this, hard to see the Company continuing - not going to be a huge about to sue or prosecute. The main guy is gone.
Yep, you are right, no certification and moreover plenty of substantial warnings from various bodies/ people that it was not fit for purpose.
The risks involved going to those depths are huge but signing a waiver that the vehicle is experimental and you are venturing at your own risk isn't enough. |  |
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| Oceangate sub on 08:50 - Jun 23 with 2278 views | StokieBlue |
| Oceangate sub on 08:14 - Jun 23 by DanTheMan |
I don't know why people are obsessing over that bit of the story and not the fact the actual sub was made out of bad materials.
According to the suit, Mr Lochridge delivered highly critical updates regarding the ship’s quality control to senior management and OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush, pointing to alleged issues such as “visible flaws” in the ship’s carbon fibre hull, “prevalent flaws” in a scale model, flammable materials onboard, a viewing window not rated for the Titanic’s depth, and key safety documents that were not shared with him.
That all sounds far, far worse. |
Using carbon fibre has historically been something that isn't done on submersibles as there are questions over it's ability to withstand the pressure at large depths.
It's also not a great shape for a submersible. Submarines can be the shape they are because they only go down about 300m and the pressure distribution is well within the tolerances of the materials. This submersible was going down 3800m and in such cases a spherical design is common as it equally distributes the pressure across the hull.
It seems there are many things that were wrong with the design, which the CEO seems to have been proud of:
SB |  |
| Avatar - M51 - The Whirlpool Galaxy - Taken on 29th April 2024 |
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| Oceangate sub on 08:57 - Jun 23 with 2232 views | itfcjoe |
| Oceangate sub on 08:49 - Jun 23 by homer_123 |
Given the CEO of Oceangate lost his life in this, hard to see the Company continuing - not going to be a huge about to sue or prosecute. The main guy is gone.
Yep, you are right, no certification and moreover plenty of substantial warnings from various bodies/ people that it was not fit for purpose.
The risks involved going to those depths are huge but signing a waiver that the vehicle is experimental and you are venturing at your own risk isn't enough. |
I think there has to be an element of these people knowing it was experimental and a responsibility on them to have done their own research - no one on this board is finding this information out by exposing secret documents etc - it's all in the public sphere
They've seen all this, balanced decision in their head and made what has turned into a fateful mistake |  |
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| Oceangate sub on 08:58 - Jun 23 with 2221 views | blueasfook |
| Oceangate sub on 08:01 - Jun 23 by cressi |
Sad but mad these clever rich people rely on a PlayStation remote with AA batteries to navigate to go two miles down no GPS bolted in from outside. |
It was a Logitech 710 controller apparently. I read on the Beeb this morning that poor Amazon IT team have been having to work overtime to remove "reviews" of the controller from trolls since the accident. |  |
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| Oceangate sub on 09:03 - Jun 23 with 2197 views | StokieBlue |
| Oceangate sub on 08:57 - Jun 23 by itfcjoe |
I think there has to be an element of these people knowing it was experimental and a responsibility on them to have done their own research - no one on this board is finding this information out by exposing secret documents etc - it's all in the public sphere
They've seen all this, balanced decision in their head and made what has turned into a fateful mistake |
Tourism shouldn't be conducted in any experimental vehicle, be it a car, plane or submersible.
The design should be nailed down and have passed regulations and been thoroughly tested before tourists are allowed. Declaring it experimental to get around this is clearly a huge loophole which will be closed.
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| Avatar - M51 - The Whirlpool Galaxy - Taken on 29th April 2024 |
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| Oceangate sub on 09:07 - Jun 23 with 2175 views | itfcjoe |
| Oceangate sub on 09:03 - Jun 23 by StokieBlue |
Tourism shouldn't be conducted in any experimental vehicle, be it a car, plane or submersible.
The design should be nailed down and have passed regulations and been thoroughly tested before tourists are allowed. Declaring it experimental to get around this is clearly a huge loophole which will be closed.
SB |
I don't disagree, but this isn't tourism really is it? These people should have gone into this with their eyes wide open.
They didn't book it down at the local travel agent and just turn up | |
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| Oceangate sub on 09:11 - Jun 23 with 2161 views | homer_123 |
| Oceangate sub on 08:57 - Jun 23 by itfcjoe |
I think there has to be an element of these people knowing it was experimental and a responsibility on them to have done their own research - no one on this board is finding this information out by exposing secret documents etc - it's all in the public sphere
They've seen all this, balanced decision in their head and made what has turned into a fateful mistake |
I would like to think that they knew the risks etc.
However, I do not believe that such 'trips' should be undertaken in vehicles not fit for purpose, regardless of the how it's positioned by the company (built by experts from NASA etc.) - that doesn't cut it. | |
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| Oceangate sub on 09:12 - Jun 23 with 2147 views | WeWereZombies |
| Oceangate sub on 09:03 - Jun 23 by StokieBlue |
Tourism shouldn't be conducted in any experimental vehicle, be it a car, plane or submersible.
The design should be nailed down and have passed regulations and been thoroughly tested before tourists are allowed. Declaring it experimental to get around this is clearly a huge loophole which will be closed.
SB |
I don't think one or two of the Land Cruisers that I have bumped along in on African dirt tracks could any longer claim to have a nailed down design and passed regulations or been thoroughly tested (I can remember lending a driver my Leatherman to repair a faulty exhaust on one occasion.) But I go into these situations as a traveller rather than as a tourist. And the five on the submersible were probably classing themselves as adventurers rather than travellers. |  |
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| Oceangate sub on 09:17 - Jun 23 with 2120 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Oceangate sub on 08:14 - Jun 23 by DanTheMan |
I don't know why people are obsessing over that bit of the story and not the fact the actual sub was made out of bad materials.
According to the suit, Mr Lochridge delivered highly critical updates regarding the ship’s quality control to senior management and OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush, pointing to alleged issues such as “visible flaws” in the ship’s carbon fibre hull, “prevalent flaws” in a scale model, flammable materials onboard, a viewing window not rated for the Titanic’s depth, and key safety documents that were not shared with him.
That all sounds far, far worse. |
Yes, 100% this. Sorry, I hadn't realised you'd referenced this suit when I brought it up just after. That's the most damning piece of evidence we have about the unsuitability of this vehicle. Off the shelf parts are neither here nor there as long as they do the job. | |
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| Oceangate sub on 09:20 - Jun 23 with 2110 views | StokieBlue |
| Oceangate sub on 09:12 - Jun 23 by WeWereZombies |
I don't think one or two of the Land Cruisers that I have bumped along in on African dirt tracks could any longer claim to have a nailed down design and passed regulations or been thoroughly tested (I can remember lending a driver my Leatherman to repair a faulty exhaust on one occasion.) But I go into these situations as a traveller rather than as a tourist. And the five on the submersible were probably classing themselves as adventurers rather than travellers. |
That's a false equivalence though Zombers - a Land Cruiser is a well designed mode of transport which has passed all the regulations and design criteria. What you are highlighting is poor maintenance rather than poor design - this was essentially a brand new vessel which was poorly designed.
We know from court documents that many didn't think the submersible was fit for purpose and thus it should have been used.
SB | |
| Avatar - M51 - The Whirlpool Galaxy - Taken on 29th April 2024 |
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| Oceangate sub on 09:23 - Jun 23 with 2078 views | WeWereZombies |
| Oceangate sub on 09:20 - Jun 23 by StokieBlue |
That's a false equivalence though Zombers - a Land Cruiser is a well designed mode of transport which has passed all the regulations and design criteria. What you are highlighting is poor maintenance rather than poor design - this was essentially a brand new vessel which was poorly designed.
We know from court documents that many didn't think the submersible was fit for purpose and thus it should have been used.
SB |
But also a false equivalence on your part, the five who died were most definitely not tourists - that is the point I was trying to make. So I would have expected them to have made a personal risk calculation for themselves (just as climbers do at the start of an ascent) and to have had an appreciation of the possibility of not coming out of the venture alive. | |
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| Oceangate sub on 09:31 - Jun 23 with 2064 views | Ftnfwest |
i did see something the other day where a previous potential 'tourist' was out in a position with them where he had to sign all manner of 'waivers' pre trip (and didn't) so will be interesting to see what the victims did in that respect. |  | | |
| Oceangate sub on 09:34 - Jun 23 with 2050 views | Guthrum |
| Oceangate sub on 09:11 - Jun 23 by homer_123 |
I would like to think that they knew the risks etc.
However, I do not believe that such 'trips' should be undertaken in vehicles not fit for purpose, regardless of the how it's positioned by the company (built by experts from NASA etc.) - that doesn't cut it. |
Tho there has to be some leeway, otherwise no progress is ever made. For example, all spacecraft (including those carrying humans) are to some extent "experimental", frequently one-offs (e.g. the ISS).
What can be done, however, is developers having a degree of responsibility, backed up by a regulatory regime which doesn't allow them a base to operate from if they continue to flout that, plus major sanctions if something goes wrong. Companies like SpaceX and Virgin Orbital have (or had, in the latter case) to jump through all sorts of strict regulatory hoops before getting permission to launch. | |
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| Oceangate sub on 09:38 - Jun 23 with 2039 views | StokieBlue |
| Oceangate sub on 09:23 - Jun 23 by WeWereZombies |
But also a false equivalence on your part, the five who died were most definitely not tourists - that is the point I was trying to make. So I would have expected them to have made a personal risk calculation for themselves (just as climbers do at the start of an ascent) and to have had an appreciation of the possibility of not coming out of the venture alive. |
You're missing the point though, tourists or not, they shouldn't even have had the option to be an "adventurer" in such a craft because it wasn't fit for purpose as had been highlighted to the courts.
I think it's also rather unfair to expect the passengers to have a full grasp of the physics behind the craft, they are relying on the company and the regulations to make those initial judgments before they then make a personal risk calculation. The first part of that process was flawed and side-stepped and they might not have fully understood this.
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| Avatar - M51 - The Whirlpool Galaxy - Taken on 29th April 2024 |
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| Oceangate sub on 09:40 - Jun 23 with 2030 views | BlueBadger |
| Oceangate sub on 08:14 - Jun 23 by DanTheMan |
I don't know why people are obsessing over that bit of the story and not the fact the actual sub was made out of bad materials.
According to the suit, Mr Lochridge delivered highly critical updates regarding the ship’s quality control to senior management and OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush, pointing to alleged issues such as “visible flaws” in the ship’s carbon fibre hull, “prevalent flaws” in a scale model, flammable materials onboard, a viewing window not rated for the Titanic’s depth, and key safety documents that were not shared with him.
That all sounds far, far worse. |
Plus, the now-deceased CEO had a somewhat cavailer attitude to H&S.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/oceangate-titanic-submarine-st |  |
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| Oceangate sub on 09:40 - Jun 23 with 2027 views | blueprint |
| Oceangate sub on 08:18 - Jun 23 by Guthrum |
Given it's simply an electronic device which sends signals based on a joystick and a few buttons, why expensively design your own when perfectly good ones can be bought off the shelf? Indeed, the game controller was specifically created to do the job required, operating a vehicle in a three-dimensional space (albeit virtual rather than real, but the distinction there is purely academic). |
Correct. And that controller would he ave had millions spent on its development. |  | | |
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