| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 18:21 - Oct 9 with 2665 views | GlasgowBlue |
| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 18:04 - Oct 9 by jayessess |
So pretty explicitly not justifying anything then? |
You are correct. Justified was poor wording. Uve edited the post.
‘Understanding the why’ is correct though. And that’s plain wrong as I explained in a previous reply to Crawford. |  |
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| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 18:25 - Oct 9 with 2650 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 16:35 - Oct 9 by GlasgowBlue |
Top Trumps. |
What constructive means do you think you might use if you happened to have been born in Gaza to express your position with the backdrop of the deaths of thousands of your compatriots and the maiming of tens of thousands others?
It isn't top trumps it is the context that leads to inhuman acts. |  |
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| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 18:32 - Oct 9 with 2615 views | redrickstuhaart |
| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 17:44 - Oct 9 by Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
THIS
They’re are barbaric terrorists, financially backed by Iran who have a clear interest in stopping the the peace effort between Israel and other middle eastern states.
Can’t believe some people on here. |
I can't believe you are incapable of even acknowleding what creates the support for such groups.
Decades of "settlements", unilateral annexation etc etc. |  | | |
| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 18:32 - Oct 9 with 2601 views | jayessess |
| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 18:21 - Oct 9 by GlasgowBlue |
You are correct. Justified was poor wording. Uve edited the post.
‘Understanding the why’ is correct though. And that’s plain wrong as I explained in a previous reply to Crawford. |
Commentators and pundits in Israel have made the exact same efforts to "understand the why" in similar ways.
No-one needs to be a secret terrorist sympathiser to understand the logic that the more brutality and humiliation that is visited on the Palestinian population, the greater the hatred that will engender and the more likely it is to manifest as violence. It's even a logic that some Israeli commentators have explored in Israeli newspapers: https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2023-10-09/ty-article-opinion/.premium/israel-ca
Most historians would tell you that the terms of the Treaty of Versailles were one contributing factor in the rise of the Nazis. When they do so they aren't endorsing Nazism, they're explaining the conditions that produced it. [Post edited 9 Oct 2023 18:46]
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| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 18:45 - Oct 9 with 2575 views | Cornette |
| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 18:11 - Oct 9 by Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
I know. You can quite clearly see them just about hiding behind their words. Wonder if it would have been the same after IRA attacks.
“Oh but this is why”
Immediate links from nine years ago rather condemning what happened nine hours ago. |
Are you a bank addicted drug robber, son? |  |
| It's triple cheese, extra cheese, mayo, pickles, onions ONLY, large fry, with a Sprite, you dumb bitch! |
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| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 18:52 - Oct 9 with 2541 views | GlasgowBlue |
| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 18:32 - Oct 9 by jayessess |
Commentators and pundits in Israel have made the exact same efforts to "understand the why" in similar ways.
No-one needs to be a secret terrorist sympathiser to understand the logic that the more brutality and humiliation that is visited on the Palestinian population, the greater the hatred that will engender and the more likely it is to manifest as violence. It's even a logic that some Israeli commentators have explored in Israeli newspapers: https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2023-10-09/ty-article-opinion/.premium/israel-ca
Most historians would tell you that the terms of the Treaty of Versailles were one contributing factor in the rise of the Nazis. When they do so they aren't endorsing Nazism, they're explaining the conditions that produced it. [Post edited 9 Oct 2023 18:46]
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I’m out to dinner now so I shall make this brief.
I haven’t suggested that anyone is a “ secret terrorist sympathiser”. I’ve simply pointed out that Hamas would be waging jihad against Israel no matter how many people have been killed at the hands of the Israeli govt. The Palestinians are their pawns.
That’s why they launch rickets into Israel from schools and hospitals. As well as storing their munitions in places that make it difficult for Israel to retaliate without there being civilian casualties. | |
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| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 18:54 - Oct 9 with 2541 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 17:39 - Oct 9 by GlasgowBlue |
It explains nothing. Hamas are a terrorist group waging jihad. Their charter calls for the destruction of Israel.They are using the Israel Palestine conflict as an excuse to wage jihad. |
They should probably have stuck with throwing stones and getting shot in the legs! Extremists on both sides are using the conflict for spurious reasons. | |
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| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 18:55 - Oct 9 with 2539 views | lowhouseblue |
| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 13:55 - Oct 9 by jayessess |
TBH, this is a very clear example of the double standard I'm talking about. To avoid "shame", it's not enough to regard Israeli suffering with horror, one most also regard Palestinian suffering with equanimity. |
yes all suffering merits "horror". someone's nationality doesn't alter the horror. but what you are trying to do is compare the actions, motivations and intentions of the israeli state with those of hamas, and you want to find them to be equivalent. look at what hamas has done in the last 3 days. murder of civilians not as an unavoidable consequence of action but as an end in itself, rape, hostage taking, celebrating their murders. there is no equivalent to how israel has acted. you are throwing away your moral compass to fit a political agenda. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 19:17 - Oct 9 with 2491 views | redrickstuhaart |
| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 18:55 - Oct 9 by lowhouseblue |
yes all suffering merits "horror". someone's nationality doesn't alter the horror. but what you are trying to do is compare the actions, motivations and intentions of the israeli state with those of hamas, and you want to find them to be equivalent. look at what hamas has done in the last 3 days. murder of civilians not as an unavoidable consequence of action but as an end in itself, rape, hostage taking, celebrating their murders. there is no equivalent to how israel has acted. you are throwing away your moral compass to fit a political agenda. |
No. He is not. But if he was, it would be wrong to dimiss it. Israel piled into a refugee camp not long ago. They have consistently annexed and settled territory, bulldozing people's homes. To dismiss all that as "not equivalent", given the cumulative effect over time, is problematic.
They are as bad as each other, regardless of whether one side happens to have done the most recent worst thing.
A quick google rapidly finds you examples that explain in part why this is happening.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2018/may/14/israeli-troops-kill-palestini
Both sides are entrenched in hatred and violence. Neither side is reasonable. One side has all the power and is succesfully suppressing and stealing land and wealth from the other.
The "siege of gaza" now announced, is pure retribution. | | | |
| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 19:18 - Oct 9 with 2491 views | redrickstuhaart |
| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 18:52 - Oct 9 by GlasgowBlue |
I’m out to dinner now so I shall make this brief.
I haven’t suggested that anyone is a “ secret terrorist sympathiser”. I’ve simply pointed out that Hamas would be waging jihad against Israel no matter how many people have been killed at the hands of the Israeli govt. The Palestinians are their pawns.
That’s why they launch rickets into Israel from schools and hospitals. As well as storing their munitions in places that make it difficult for Israel to retaliate without there being civilian casualties. |
I suspect support for the likes of Hamas would fade pretty swiftly if peace broke out, settlements ceased, land was returned to the rightful owners etc.
Of course the hardcore loons would still be a threat and would not just cease. But support for them in the community probably would. | | | |
| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 19:21 - Oct 9 with 2469 views | jayessess |
| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 18:55 - Oct 9 by lowhouseblue |
yes all suffering merits "horror". someone's nationality doesn't alter the horror. but what you are trying to do is compare the actions, motivations and intentions of the israeli state with those of hamas, and you want to find them to be equivalent. look at what hamas has done in the last 3 days. murder of civilians not as an unavoidable consequence of action but as an end in itself, rape, hostage taking, celebrating their murders. there is no equivalent to how israel has acted. you are throwing away your moral compass to fit a political agenda. |
I don't know what sort of moral compass enables this kind of hierarchy of victim.
Systematic state violence over decades may look more orderly, sanitary, considered and even unavoidable from the perspective of those enacting it, but for the recipients it manifests in the same horrific ways, day after day, as brutality, dispossession, death and destruction.
Trying to weigh the moral balance of whether it's worse to conduct a massacre or worse to permanently corral two million people into a tiny ghetto and consistently brutalise them over decades, strikes me as an utterly pointless and inhuman calculation to make. They're both evil. [Post edited 9 Oct 2023 19:29]
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| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 19:41 - Oct 9 with 2431 views | lowhouseblue |
| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 19:21 - Oct 9 by jayessess |
I don't know what sort of moral compass enables this kind of hierarchy of victim.
Systematic state violence over decades may look more orderly, sanitary, considered and even unavoidable from the perspective of those enacting it, but for the recipients it manifests in the same horrific ways, day after day, as brutality, dispossession, death and destruction.
Trying to weigh the moral balance of whether it's worse to conduct a massacre or worse to permanently corral two million people into a tiny ghetto and consistently brutalise them over decades, strikes me as an utterly pointless and inhuman calculation to make. They're both evil. [Post edited 9 Oct 2023 19:29]
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it is not a hierarchy of victim as my posts make very clear.
you are creating an entirely false equivalence which i genuinely find fairly disgusting. i don't know how any country would have responded to a terrorist organisation embedded on it's border and funded by others to wage jihad against it with the aim of driving it out of existence. israel is open to serious and multiple criticisms but your equivalence with the terrorism that has happened over the last few days is really dishonest and disgusting. so you can go on ignore. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 20:09 - Oct 9 with 2377 views | redrickstuhaart |
| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 19:41 - Oct 9 by lowhouseblue |
it is not a hierarchy of victim as my posts make very clear.
you are creating an entirely false equivalence which i genuinely find fairly disgusting. i don't know how any country would have responded to a terrorist organisation embedded on it's border and funded by others to wage jihad against it with the aim of driving it out of existence. israel is open to serious and multiple criticisms but your equivalence with the terrorism that has happened over the last few days is really dishonest and disgusting. so you can go on ignore. |
The point he is making is that its not a false equivalence at all. Not if you look at the wider picture.
The difference, in this case, between terrorism and state acts, is the power of one of the states.
One man's freedom fighter etc... | | | |
| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 20:22 - Oct 9 with 2329 views | jayessess |
| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 19:41 - Oct 9 by lowhouseblue |
it is not a hierarchy of victim as my posts make very clear.
you are creating an entirely false equivalence which i genuinely find fairly disgusting. i don't know how any country would have responded to a terrorist organisation embedded on it's border and funded by others to wage jihad against it with the aim of driving it out of existence. israel is open to serious and multiple criticisms but your equivalence with the terrorism that has happened over the last few days is really dishonest and disgusting. so you can go on ignore. |
I think, if you were a Palestinian who had lived their life under a brutal military occupation and routinely lost friends and relatives to that overwhelming military force, were yourself brutalised and dispossessed, you would have a hard time reading your posts and not imagining that the author was ultimately sympathising with those that perpetrated those crimes against you.
The hierarchy here is implicit. | |
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| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 07:39 - Oct 11 with 2091 views | NeedhamChris |
| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 18:52 - Oct 9 by GlasgowBlue |
I’m out to dinner now so I shall make this brief.
I haven’t suggested that anyone is a “ secret terrorist sympathiser”. I’ve simply pointed out that Hamas would be waging jihad against Israel no matter how many people have been killed at the hands of the Israeli govt. The Palestinians are their pawns.
That’s why they launch rickets into Israel from schools and hospitals. As well as storing their munitions in places that make it difficult for Israel to retaliate without there being civilian casualties. |
Agreed. Unfortunately Morsy is still encouraging the one sided view by posting a horrific video this morning on Twitter/X that I think as a club captain of a football team with tonnes of young followers he should really think twice about.
Sadly - Morsy isn't doing any different to those on here you're rightly arguing with. I'm disappointed in him - he hasn't came out and condemned both sides at all here (other than a wooly and prompted fluffy response) | |
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| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 08:54 - Oct 11 with 2023 views | Whos_blue |
| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 07:39 - Oct 11 by NeedhamChris |
Agreed. Unfortunately Morsy is still encouraging the one sided view by posting a horrific video this morning on Twitter/X that I think as a club captain of a football team with tonnes of young followers he should really think twice about.
Sadly - Morsy isn't doing any different to those on here you're rightly arguing with. I'm disappointed in him - he hasn't came out and condemned both sides at all here (other than a wooly and prompted fluffy response) |
I'm tiptoeing very gingerly into this debate. It's a tinderbox of emotions.
It goes without saying I deplore the disgusting actions of Hamas. The brutality and senseless killing of so many innocent people is just sickening.
In no way can their actions be regarded as fighting for freedom.
In the same way we cannot conflate the Israeli state with all all Jewish people, we cannot also conflate Hamas representing all Palestinians.
However, from what I've seen, the reporting from the British press has been almost exclusively weighted towards the atrocity in Israel and very little towards to ongoing wave after wave of counter attacks that will probably end taking more innocent lives than the initial attack.
The difference is that no one is condemning this. It's only the "Israel has the right to defend itself" or in our politician's responses "We stand fully behind Israel". Starmer has been asked the question this morning whether Israel should show restraint with it's counter offensive. Not one recognition of the loss of life and and ongoing issue of cutting off aid, water and gas in Gaza. Just that the fault lies with Hamas. (I'll stand corrected if I've missed this).
Who is standing up for these people?
To bring it back to Morsy's tweets. As a seemingly life long supporter of a free Palestine, is it any wonder he's chosen to speak out about it?
Regarding his young supporters, Morsy is a human being with human emotions and feelings. He is not an ITFC propaganda puppet and has a history of posting pro free Palestine messages. Whilst his status does come with responsibility, we need to be careful before we make judgement on what he should and shouldn't post.
Fingers crossed this post hasn't enraged anyone and hopefully adds some balance to this very difficult situation. |  |
| Distortion becomes somehow pure in its wildness. |
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| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 09:17 - Oct 11 with 1980 views | Darth_Koont |
| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 08:54 - Oct 11 by Whos_blue |
I'm tiptoeing very gingerly into this debate. It's a tinderbox of emotions.
It goes without saying I deplore the disgusting actions of Hamas. The brutality and senseless killing of so many innocent people is just sickening.
In no way can their actions be regarded as fighting for freedom.
In the same way we cannot conflate the Israeli state with all all Jewish people, we cannot also conflate Hamas representing all Palestinians.
However, from what I've seen, the reporting from the British press has been almost exclusively weighted towards the atrocity in Israel and very little towards to ongoing wave after wave of counter attacks that will probably end taking more innocent lives than the initial attack.
The difference is that no one is condemning this. It's only the "Israel has the right to defend itself" or in our politician's responses "We stand fully behind Israel". Starmer has been asked the question this morning whether Israel should show restraint with it's counter offensive. Not one recognition of the loss of life and and ongoing issue of cutting off aid, water and gas in Gaza. Just that the fault lies with Hamas. (I'll stand corrected if I've missed this).
Who is standing up for these people?
To bring it back to Morsy's tweets. As a seemingly life long supporter of a free Palestine, is it any wonder he's chosen to speak out about it?
Regarding his young supporters, Morsy is a human being with human emotions and feelings. He is not an ITFC propaganda puppet and has a history of posting pro free Palestine messages. Whilst his status does come with responsibility, we need to be careful before we make judgement on what he should and shouldn't post.
Fingers crossed this post hasn't enraged anyone and hopefully adds some balance to this very difficult situation. |
Good post.
There is absolutely no justification for what Hamas has done. But there is definitely a sense that a harsh and likely catastrophic response for Palestinian civilians is being justified by the Israeli government and its supporters.
The focus needs to be on de-escalation and sidelining the extremists on both sides or we risk seeing hundreds of deaths turning into many thousands. And all essentially innocent victims because they were born and raised on somebody else’s battleground. |  |
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| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 09:22 - Oct 11 with 1954 views | unbelievablue |
| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 09:17 - Oct 11 by Darth_Koont |
Good post.
There is absolutely no justification for what Hamas has done. But there is definitely a sense that a harsh and likely catastrophic response for Palestinian civilians is being justified by the Israeli government and its supporters.
The focus needs to be on de-escalation and sidelining the extremists on both sides or we risk seeing hundreds of deaths turning into many thousands. And all essentially innocent victims because they were born and raised on somebody else’s battleground. |
"The focus needs to be on de-escalation and sidelining the extremists on both sides or we risk seeing hundreds of deaths turning into many thousands." < Uppie.
It feels like the crux of the debate on here is that some people equate the Israeli govt. as extremists, and some don't. |  |
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| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 09:28 - Oct 11 with 1923 views | WeWereZombies |
| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 09:17 - Oct 11 by Darth_Koont |
Good post.
There is absolutely no justification for what Hamas has done. But there is definitely a sense that a harsh and likely catastrophic response for Palestinian civilians is being justified by the Israeli government and its supporters.
The focus needs to be on de-escalation and sidelining the extremists on both sides or we risk seeing hundreds of deaths turning into many thousands. And all essentially innocent victims because they were born and raised on somebody else’s battleground. |
Somebody else's battleground ? It shouldn't be anyone's battleground. |  |
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| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 09:39 - Oct 11 with 1889 views | Darth_Koont |
| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 09:28 - Oct 11 by WeWereZombies |
Somebody else's battleground ? It shouldn't be anyone's battleground. |
Absolutely! | |
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| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 09:48 - Oct 11 with 1861 views | eireblue |
| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 18:25 - Oct 9 by BanksterDebtSlave |
What constructive means do you think you might use if you happened to have been born in Gaza to express your position with the backdrop of the deaths of thousands of your compatriots and the maiming of tens of thousands others?
It isn't top trumps it is the context that leads to inhuman acts. |
What happens to people in Gaza that have constructive suggestions, that are different to those of Hammas?
I wonder what would happen if someone said to Hammas, please don’t fire rockets from my location, I don’t think it is very constructive.
Imagine being that person in Gaza. |  | | |
| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 10:06 - Oct 11 with 1814 views | giant_stow |
| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 09:17 - Oct 11 by Darth_Koont |
Good post.
There is absolutely no justification for what Hamas has done. But there is definitely a sense that a harsh and likely catastrophic response for Palestinian civilians is being justified by the Israeli government and its supporters.
The focus needs to be on de-escalation and sidelining the extremists on both sides or we risk seeing hundreds of deaths turning into many thousands. And all essentially innocent victims because they were born and raised on somebody else’s battleground. |
Small point of order - we're already into thousands of deaths:
c 1200 Israelis
c900 Palestinian civilians
c1500 Hamas fighters dead in Israel. |  |
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| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 10:18 - Oct 11 with 1759 views | Darth_Koont |
| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 10:06 - Oct 11 by giant_stow |
Small point of order - we're already into thousands of deaths:
c 1200 Israelis
c900 Palestinian civilians
c1500 Hamas fighters dead in Israel. |
Yes, I’m just making the distinction between the current level of victims and the next level if Gaza is flattened or attacks on Israel are ramped up by militants all around their borders.
Unfortunately, I can see innocent Israelis and Palestinian dying in much greater numbers unless wise and humane heads prevail. This is the major responsibility of the international community, not to abandon one group for the sake of showing support for the other. | |
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| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 13:40 - Oct 11 with 1642 views | Whos_blue |
| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 10:18 - Oct 11 by Darth_Koont |
Yes, I’m just making the distinction between the current level of victims and the next level if Gaza is flattened or attacks on Israel are ramped up by militants all around their borders.
Unfortunately, I can see innocent Israelis and Palestinian dying in much greater numbers unless wise and humane heads prevail. This is the major responsibility of the international community, not to abandon one group for the sake of showing support for the other. |
I think this is pretty much inevitable now that Biden has seemingly given the green light for an all out assault and I've just seen (not very) Cleverly has rushed out to Israel "to demonstrate the UK's unwavering solidarity with the Israeli people.........to outline support for Israel's right to defend itself". | |
| Distortion becomes somehow pure in its wildness. |
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