| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 15:01 - Oct 11 with 2045 views | Buhrer |
Does he somehow mean a legal right (to disconnect services etc) rather than moral? Very limp leader. |  | |  |
| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 15:03 - Oct 11 with 2035 views | giant_stow |
In fairness, he remembers to add the rider of 'within international law' |  |
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| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 15:10 - Oct 11 with 1984 views | DJR |
| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 15:03 - Oct 11 by giant_stow |
In fairness, he remembers to add the rider of 'within international law' |
I suppose the main issue I have, and leaving aside the current conflict, is that there now appears to be no difference in security/foreign policy terms between the two main parties, but such unanimity got us involved in the disasters of Iran, Afghanistan and Libya. [Post edited 11 Oct 2023 15:11]
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| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 15:10 - Oct 11 with 1980 views | DJR |
| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 15:01 - Oct 11 by Buhrer |
Does he somehow mean a legal right (to disconnect services etc) rather than moral? Very limp leader. |
I don't think there is a legal right either, and as a lawyer he should know this.
And there wouldn't have been an issue from an international law point of view if he had said "Israel has the right, in accordance with the principle of self defence, to secure the border, make targeted attacks on Hamas and mount a proportionate ground invasion, whilst ensuring as few civilian casualties as possible. But depriving the population (half of whom are under 18) of electricity and water is not acceptable." [Post edited 11 Oct 2023 15:23]
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| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 15:15 - Oct 11 with 1959 views | giant_stow |
| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 15:10 - Oct 11 by DJR |
I suppose the main issue I have, and leaving aside the current conflict, is that there now appears to be no difference in security/foreign policy terms between the two main parties, but such unanimity got us involved in the disasters of Iran, Afghanistan and Libya. [Post edited 11 Oct 2023 15:11]
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You're right that the main parties usually seem to agree on foreign policy an maybe that's not healthy. In this case an at this point though, I'm not sure what policy other than 'Israel has the right to defend itself' is possible. | |
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| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 15:26 - Oct 11 with 1927 views | itfcjoe |
| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 15:15 - Oct 11 by giant_stow |
You're right that the main parties usually seem to agree on foreign policy an maybe that's not healthy. In this case an at this point though, I'm not sure what policy other than 'Israel has the right to defend itself' is possible. |
Foreign policy should be lead by the experts opposed to party political positions being taken - so no surprise it goes this way |  |
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| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 15:29 - Oct 11 with 1915 views | DJR |
| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 15:15 - Oct 11 by giant_stow |
You're right that the main parties usually seem to agree on foreign policy an maybe that's not healthy. In this case an at this point though, I'm not sure what policy other than 'Israel has the right to defend itself' is possible. |
But self-defence does not give carte-blanche.
Josep Borrell put it well yesterday, but politicians in the UK are not really expressing similar caveats.
“Israel has the right to defend [itself], but it has to be done accordingly with international law, humanitarian law, and some decisions are contrary to international law,” he told reporters after the meeting.
“Some of their actions [by Israel] — and the United Nations has already said that — like cutting water, cutting electricity, cutting food to a mass of civilian people – is against international law – so yes, there are some actions that are not in accordance with international law,” [Post edited 11 Oct 2023 15:30]
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| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 15:39 - Oct 11 with 1879 views | giant_stow |
| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 15:29 - Oct 11 by DJR |
But self-defence does not give carte-blanche.
Josep Borrell put it well yesterday, but politicians in the UK are not really expressing similar caveats.
“Israel has the right to defend [itself], but it has to be done accordingly with international law, humanitarian law, and some decisions are contrary to international law,” he told reporters after the meeting.
“Some of their actions [by Israel] — and the United Nations has already said that — like cutting water, cutting electricity, cutting food to a mass of civilian people – is against international law – so yes, there are some actions that are not in accordance with international law,” [Post edited 11 Oct 2023 15:30]
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I agree with those caveats and hope that UK politicians will too - it may take time for them to say so publicly though - this is all very fresh still. | |
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| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 15:39 - Oct 11 with 1879 views | Blueschev |
| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 15:03 - Oct 11 by giant_stow |
In fairness, he remembers to add the rider of 'within international law' |
So Israel has the right to commit war crimes as long as they're within international law. How does that work? |  | | |
| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 15:43 - Oct 11 with 1873 views | giant_stow |
| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 15:39 - Oct 11 by Blueschev |
So Israel has the right to commit war crimes as long as they're within international law. How does that work? |
I think he's on live radio and said one thing / realised it was a mistake and added the rider. Hopefully he'll find a balanced way of addressing this next time he's asked | |
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| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 16:35 - Oct 11 with 1808 views | Whos_blue |
Sigh.
I'm just so depressed by this.
This was an opportunity to demonstrate a statesman like solution via a carefully worded statement.
Instead he appears incapacitated, following the antisemitism inquiry, by fear of saying anything even remotely critical of the Israeli state.
We're all agreed that Hamas acted in an abhorrent manner, but surely that cannot excuse the crushing retalitory tactics we're now seeing? |  |
| Distortion becomes somehow pure in its wildness. |
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| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 16:51 - Oct 11 with 1785 views | DJR |
| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 16:35 - Oct 11 by Whos_blue |
Sigh.
I'm just so depressed by this.
This was an opportunity to demonstrate a statesman like solution via a carefully worded statement.
Instead he appears incapacitated, following the antisemitism inquiry, by fear of saying anything even remotely critical of the Israeli state.
We're all agreed that Hamas acted in an abhorrent manner, but surely that cannot excuse the crushing retalitory tactics we're now seeing? |
Looks like he has got himself into a bit of a mess. Of course, it looks like it is impossible for him to do as they say, and this might not get much media publicity, but I imagine his stance will not go down well in the Muslim community, many of whom do vote Labour.
[Post edited 11 Oct 2023 17:01]
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| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 17:09 - Oct 11 with 1732 views | matteoblue |
| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 16:51 - Oct 11 by DJR |
Looks like he has got himself into a bit of a mess. Of course, it looks like it is impossible for him to do as they say, and this might not get much media publicity, but I imagine his stance will not go down well in the Muslim community, many of whom do vote Labour.
[Post edited 11 Oct 2023 17:01]
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It's odd how the Left have embraced the Muslim vote, some of the most conservative people in the country. I suspect it will come back to bite them. |  |
| We are Premier League, say we are Premier League! |
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| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 17:30 - Oct 11 with 1691 views | giant_stow |
| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 16:51 - Oct 11 by DJR |
Looks like he has got himself into a bit of a mess. Of course, it looks like it is impossible for him to do as they say, and this might not get much media publicity, but I imagine his stance will not go down well in the Muslim community, many of whom do vote Labour.
[Post edited 11 Oct 2023 17:01]
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I appreciate your steady and considered approach to this matter (which contrasts hugely with someone else I read in Owen Jones, who's immediately gone right off the deep end. | |
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| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 17:47 - Oct 11 with 1669 views | Blueschev |
| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 17:09 - Oct 11 by matteoblue |
It's odd how the Left have embraced the Muslim vote, some of the most conservative people in the country. I suspect it will come back to bite them. |
I'd hardly describe the foreign policy implemented by Labour in the first decade of the 21st century as embracing the Muslim vote, would you? | | | |
| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 17:48 - Oct 11 with 1668 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 16:51 - Oct 11 by DJR |
Looks like he has got himself into a bit of a mess. Of course, it looks like it is impossible for him to do as they say, and this might not get much media publicity, but I imagine his stance will not go down well in the Muslim community, many of whom do vote Labour.
[Post edited 11 Oct 2023 17:01]
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The ground has been laid for the Israeli State's response. Following the kibbutz massacre military spokesmen were literally saying...."bare this in mind when we are accused of reacting disproportionately." Israel will never, ever be charged with war crimes, they have carte blanche (pretty much like all Western 'civilised states!) [Post edited 11 Oct 2023 17:49]
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| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 18:42 - Oct 11 with 1584 views | DJR |
| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 17:30 - Oct 11 by giant_stow |
I appreciate your steady and considered approach to this matter (which contrasts hugely with someone else I read in Owen Jones, who's immediately gone right off the deep end. |
Thanks. It's something I try to do anyway, but I think it's right to be considered on a message board where there are a variety of views. | | | |
| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 19:54 - Oct 11 with 1502 views | Ryorry |
| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 13:40 - Oct 11 by Whos_blue |
I think this is pretty much inevitable now that Biden has seemingly given the green light for an all out assault and I've just seen (not very) Cleverly has rushed out to Israel "to demonstrate the UK's unwavering solidarity with the Israeli people.........to outline support for Israel's right to defend itself". |
The whole "Israel has our unequivocal, solid support" is shocking and bizarre - I'm guessing that upcoming elections in the UK & US, with a significant number of Jewish votes up for grabs, is the underlying reason.
You'd have thought for once, in a situation which is a tinder box & which has the capacity for dangerous & rapid escalation with proxy "supporter" countries joining in, the usual major supporters of Israel could have used that as a lever to persuade Israel to desist from a barbarc siege which will have a devastating effect on ordinary Palestinian people, but not on Hamas - who aren't the kind of rational, reasonable people who'd put the welfare of the general population they claim to be fighting for, ahead of their jihadi aims.
Maybe it's intended for behind the scenes discussion, but I doubt it. There don't seem to be any true statesmen/women around. [Post edited 11 Oct 2023 19:56]
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| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 21:20 - Oct 11 with 1430 views | Bigalhunter |
| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 19:54 - Oct 11 by Ryorry |
The whole "Israel has our unequivocal, solid support" is shocking and bizarre - I'm guessing that upcoming elections in the UK & US, with a significant number of Jewish votes up for grabs, is the underlying reason.
You'd have thought for once, in a situation which is a tinder box & which has the capacity for dangerous & rapid escalation with proxy "supporter" countries joining in, the usual major supporters of Israel could have used that as a lever to persuade Israel to desist from a barbarc siege which will have a devastating effect on ordinary Palestinian people, but not on Hamas - who aren't the kind of rational, reasonable people who'd put the welfare of the general population they claim to be fighting for, ahead of their jihadi aims.
Maybe it's intended for behind the scenes discussion, but I doubt it. There don't seem to be any true statesmen/women around. [Post edited 11 Oct 2023 19:56]
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I fully agree with you.
It horrifies me that Sunak and Biden have fallen into line so predictably and compliantly.
It reeks of vote grabbing and sinister wider influence.
This isn’t a Russia/Ukraine equivalence however much the BBC News at 10 tries to frame it. [Post edited 11 Oct 2023 21:42]
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| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 21:40 - Oct 11 with 1405 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 21:20 - Oct 11 by Bigalhunter |
I fully agree with you.
It horrifies me that Sunak and Biden have fallen into line so predictably and compliantly.
It reeks of vote grabbing and sinister wider influence.
This isn’t a Russia/Ukraine equivalence however much the BBC News at 10 tries to frame it. [Post edited 11 Oct 2023 21:42]
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“sinister wider influence”
Who’s influence…care to elaborate? |  | | |
| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 22:18 - Oct 11 with 1353 views | Bigalhunter |
| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 21:40 - Oct 11 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
“sinister wider influence”
Who’s influence…care to elaborate? |
Not much of a Palestinian support vote to woo in the UK.
Sunak, Biden & even Starmer know exactly what they’re doing. | | | |
| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 22:26 - Oct 11 with 1336 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 22:18 - Oct 11 by Bigalhunter |
Not much of a Palestinian support vote to woo in the UK.
Sunak, Biden & even Starmer know exactly what they’re doing. |
Edit- the numbers are from 2001, but apparently there are <20k Israeli’s in the UK so it doesn’t seem that material in terms of votes.
The UK and US governments have largely always backed Israel, strategic Middle Eastern ally with a powerful military, western aligned, counter balance to Iran, and an advanced economy. For that reason they’ve often turned a blind eye to Israeli war crimes, I think it’s simplistic to think it’s purely electioneering. [Post edited 11 Oct 2023 22:33]
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| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 23:08 - Oct 11 with 1287 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 19:54 - Oct 11 by Ryorry |
The whole "Israel has our unequivocal, solid support" is shocking and bizarre - I'm guessing that upcoming elections in the UK & US, with a significant number of Jewish votes up for grabs, is the underlying reason.
You'd have thought for once, in a situation which is a tinder box & which has the capacity for dangerous & rapid escalation with proxy "supporter" countries joining in, the usual major supporters of Israel could have used that as a lever to persuade Israel to desist from a barbarc siege which will have a devastating effect on ordinary Palestinian people, but not on Hamas - who aren't the kind of rational, reasonable people who'd put the welfare of the general population they claim to be fighting for, ahead of their jihadi aims.
Maybe it's intended for behind the scenes discussion, but I doubt it. There don't seem to be any true statesmen/women around. [Post edited 11 Oct 2023 19:56]
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This from the Guardian. See the last paragraph for your answer...
Since Joe Biden’s speech on Tuesday condemning the “sheer evil” of Saturday’s attack by Hamas on Israel’s south, the US president has been the subject of gushing compliments by Israelis who believed him when he said forcefully, “The United States has Israel’s back.”
“Joe Biden’s speech was the speech Israelis were waiting for,” said Axios’s Barak Ravid, writing for the Israeli news site Walla. “It’s no exaggeration to say that Joe Biden this week engraved his name in gold letters on Israel’s heart,” wrote another commentator. A newscaster with Kan, the public broadcaster, observed he was doing a more effective job communicating to Israel than its own prime minister.
Another compared the speech to Truman’s address recognizing Israel’s independence on May 14,1948. Ravid reported that 48% of Israelis watched the speech, in which Biden, with soaring references to Jewish and Israeli history, promised to support Israel with military aid and defend Jewish institutions in the US.
The outpouring came amid widespread anger at the Netanyahu government over its failure to defend the southern border ahead of the attack, or manage the response after it was underway. Residents hiding in their homes described a feeling of acute abandonment by the state as they listened to their neighbors being massacred and waited in agony for hours before the army appeared.
Some 70% of Israeli Jews said they supported Donald Trump over Biden in the 2020 election. During his presidency, Trump enjoyed higher ratings in Israel than in any other foreign country. | |
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| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 23:15 - Oct 11 with 1282 views | Bigalhunter |
| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 22:26 - Oct 11 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
Edit- the numbers are from 2001, but apparently there are <20k Israeli’s in the UK so it doesn’t seem that material in terms of votes.
The UK and US governments have largely always backed Israel, strategic Middle Eastern ally with a powerful military, western aligned, counter balance to Iran, and an advanced economy. For that reason they’ve often turned a blind eye to Israeli war crimes, I think it’s simplistic to think it’s purely electioneering. [Post edited 11 Oct 2023 22:33]
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Yes, of course it goes far beyond the individual Jewish votes they might harvest.
The strategic ally and western alignment points you cite bring a whole other group of unsavoury elements and vested interests into play. The same blind eye that ignores Saudi behaviour also overlooks continued Israeli war atrocities.
A pitiful and disgusting state of affairs all round. | | | |
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