| Samuel David Construction in Woodbridge 09:46 - Aug 8 with 9267 views | itfcjoe |
Just gone bust owing £1m - hopefully no-one here was stung by them |  |
| |  |
| Samuel David Construction in Woodbridge on 09:50 - Aug 8 with 8274 views | JoeSoap |
Apparently only some bloke called Curbishley. |  |
| “At first nothing will happen to us, and later on it will happen to us again.” |
| |
| Samuel David Construction in Woodbridge on 09:57 - Aug 8 with 8221 views | BullardsMagicMullet |
Yes the owe the company I work for £16.5k, flagged up in March they were in trouble.
No payments received since February but we still let them trade with us and run up a bill. |  |
| |
| Samuel David Construction in Woodbridge on 09:57 - Aug 8 with 8209 views | Reuser_is_God |
They owed a customer money.
Remarkable. |  |
| |
| Samuel David Construction in Woodbridge on 10:00 - Aug 8 with 8195 views | itfcjoe |
| Samuel David Construction in Woodbridge on 09:57 - Aug 8 by Reuser_is_God |
They owed a customer money.
Remarkable. |
Happens quite often when builders get in trouble - start taking up front payments for things and then not doing the work.
We have luxury of doing all our work before payment - but anyone reading this should never let builder get too far ahead as it's a dangerous game | |
| |
| Samuel David Construction in Woodbridge on 10:03 - Aug 8 with 8180 views | itfcjoe |
| Samuel David Construction in Woodbridge on 09:57 - Aug 8 by BullardsMagicMullet |
Yes the owe the company I work for £16.5k, flagged up in March they were in trouble.
No payments received since February but we still let them trade with us and run up a bill. |
They looked like they were doing well from the outside, nice office, a few vans about some higher profile jobs - but it's easy to make it look like you are doing well and get loads of nice vans and new gear and marketing.
Industry is in a bit of a boom at the moment, to fail now shows there were serious issues | |
| |
| Samuel David Construction in Woodbridge on 10:17 - Aug 8 with 8108 views | Guthrum |
| Samuel David Construction in Woodbridge on 10:00 - Aug 8 by itfcjoe |
Happens quite often when builders get in trouble - start taking up front payments for things and then not doing the work.
We have luxury of doing all our work before payment - but anyone reading this should never let builder get too far ahead as it's a dangerous game |
It is a luxury. But some of us smaller operators (especially one man bands) need at least to get the money for materials up front. And perhaps stage payments if it's a long job. |  |
| |
| Samuel David Construction in Woodbridge on 10:21 - Aug 8 with 8066 views | itfcjoe |
| Samuel David Construction in Woodbridge on 10:17 - Aug 8 by Guthrum |
It is a luxury. But some of us smaller operators (especially one man bands) need at least to get the money for materials up front. And perhaps stage payments if it's a long job. |
Without a doubt, and we've all been there - but it has to be controlled.
If you are having a £25k extension then a realsitic payment plan needs to be agreed - not £25k up front.
The one in this case was having a double storey extension and garage works done for an eye watering £340k + VAT and if I read the story correctly has paid in full and the works are half done.
Another one locally I have heard who have gone had taken £80k of someone up front which was full extension cost.
Paying some up front is very common, and it is a luxury we work like that - but people need to be careful. | |
| |
| Samuel David Construction in Woodbridge on 10:36 - Aug 8 with 7964 views | Guthrum |
| Samuel David Construction in Woodbridge on 10:21 - Aug 8 by itfcjoe |
Without a doubt, and we've all been there - but it has to be controlled.
If you are having a £25k extension then a realsitic payment plan needs to be agreed - not £25k up front.
The one in this case was having a double storey extension and garage works done for an eye watering £340k + VAT and if I read the story correctly has paid in full and the works are half done.
Another one locally I have heard who have gone had taken £80k of someone up front which was full extension cost.
Paying some up front is very common, and it is a luxury we work like that - but people need to be careful. |
Indeed.
It's also polite to leave final payment until the customer has approved/snagged the works. | |
| |
Login to get fewer ads
| Samuel David Construction in Woodbridge on 10:38 - Aug 8 with 7952 views | TVRBlue |
| Samuel David Construction in Woodbridge on 10:21 - Aug 8 by itfcjoe |
Without a doubt, and we've all been there - but it has to be controlled.
If you are having a £25k extension then a realsitic payment plan needs to be agreed - not £25k up front.
The one in this case was having a double storey extension and garage works done for an eye watering £340k + VAT and if I read the story correctly has paid in full and the works are half done.
Another one locally I have heard who have gone had taken £80k of someone up front which was full extension cost.
Paying some up front is very common, and it is a luxury we work like that - but people need to be careful. |
A two-storey extension for £340,000 + VAT even including some "garage works" is a ridiculous price unless it is a particularly highly specified project - perhaps it was.
A JCT Contract which would control the release of monies for work carried out (and materials purchased and on site) throughout the construction phase should have been in place. If it had of been the client would have been protected as they would only have paid for works carried out and materials purchased up to the date that Samuel David Construction went bust.
I know you will be familiar with this Joe but wanted to let others know there is protection for Clients available if they take on the correct professional advice. |  | | |
| Samuel David Construction in Woodbridge on 10:43 - Aug 8 with 7917 views | itfcjoe |
| Samuel David Construction in Woodbridge on 10:38 - Aug 8 by TVRBlue |
A two-storey extension for £340,000 + VAT even including some "garage works" is a ridiculous price unless it is a particularly highly specified project - perhaps it was.
A JCT Contract which would control the release of monies for work carried out (and materials purchased and on site) throughout the construction phase should have been in place. If it had of been the client would have been protected as they would only have paid for works carried out and materials purchased up to the date that Samuel David Construction went bust.
I know you will be familiar with this Joe but wanted to let others know there is protection for Clients available if they take on the correct professional advice. |
It must have been a huge, top spec project, but is a hell of a refurb and further works!
Even if a JCT contract was in place, it wouldn't have stopped the builder trying to get more money off them in promises to push on and kick on with it all - ultimately if they are willing to part with their money then nothing can be done.
But for a project that size, amazed there isn't an architect/QS involved from clients side to manage the payments and advise them | |
| |
| Samuel David Construction in Woodbridge on 10:43 - Aug 8 with 7913 views | TVRBlue |
| Samuel David Construction in Woodbridge on 10:36 - Aug 8 by Guthrum |
Indeed.
It's also polite to leave final payment until the customer has approved/snagged the works. |
You are correct Guthrum.
All projects should have as part of the contract a retention clause where a percentage of the Contract sum is retained for a period of time after the completion of the works. During the retention period (I have seen these to be 3 months and 6 months after Completion) the Client prepares the snagging list to go over with the Contractor and, once things on the snagging list have been resolved by all parties, the retention monies are released to the Contractor.
This way everyone is protected. | | | |
| Samuel David Construction in Woodbridge on 10:46 - Aug 8 with 7890 views | itfcjoe |
| Samuel David Construction in Woodbridge on 10:43 - Aug 8 by TVRBlue |
You are correct Guthrum.
All projects should have as part of the contract a retention clause where a percentage of the Contract sum is retained for a period of time after the completion of the works. During the retention period (I have seen these to be 3 months and 6 months after Completion) the Client prepares the snagging list to go over with the Contractor and, once things on the snagging list have been resolved by all parties, the retention monies are released to the Contractor.
This way everyone is protected. |
Retention doesn't really work though - we don't work on jobs which have it as it never works properly.
Most builders I know will openly and in an up front manner up the price by the amount of retention as know you never end up getting it all. | |
| |
| Samuel David Construction in Woodbridge on 10:49 - Aug 8 with 7853 views | Reuser_is_God |
| Samuel David Construction in Woodbridge on 10:00 - Aug 8 by itfcjoe |
Happens quite often when builders get in trouble - start taking up front payments for things and then not doing the work.
We have luxury of doing all our work before payment - but anyone reading this should never let builder get too far ahead as it's a dangerous game |
Especially given the amount involved!
I’m concerned it was my old neighbour who had them doing a load of work for him but not sure it would’ve been to the reported value. | |
| |
| Samuel David Construction in Woodbridge on 10:51 - Aug 8 with 7841 views | TVRBlue |
| Samuel David Construction in Woodbridge on 10:43 - Aug 8 by itfcjoe |
It must have been a huge, top spec project, but is a hell of a refurb and further works!
Even if a JCT contract was in place, it wouldn't have stopped the builder trying to get more money off them in promises to push on and kick on with it all - ultimately if they are willing to part with their money then nothing can be done.
But for a project that size, amazed there isn't an architect/QS involved from clients side to manage the payments and advise them |
I was thinking exactly the same thing Joe.
Who on earth did they have advise them on a professional basis?
I can't believe anyone would consider (or be able) to go through the process of having a £340,000 + VAT construction project undertaken on their property without appointing an architect. I think a project of this size should also have a QS appointed to control the pricing/management/release of monies.
Furthermore, the engagement of an architect and a QS would make the management and control of cost omissions and additions throughout the Contract easier for the Client and Contractor to deal with when the final invoicing is prepared/produced. | | | |
| Samuel David Construction in Woodbridge on 10:52 - Aug 8 with 7823 views | Reuser_is_God |
| Samuel David Construction in Woodbridge on 10:43 - Aug 8 by itfcjoe |
It must have been a huge, top spec project, but is a hell of a refurb and further works!
Even if a JCT contract was in place, it wouldn't have stopped the builder trying to get more money off them in promises to push on and kick on with it all - ultimately if they are willing to part with their money then nothing can be done.
But for a project that size, amazed there isn't an architect/QS involved from clients side to manage the payments and advise them |
Do you know where it was? | |
| |
| Samuel David Construction in Woodbridge on 10:54 - Aug 8 with 7798 views | Guthrum |
| Samuel David Construction in Woodbridge on 10:43 - Aug 8 by TVRBlue |
You are correct Guthrum.
All projects should have as part of the contract a retention clause where a percentage of the Contract sum is retained for a period of time after the completion of the works. During the retention period (I have seen these to be 3 months and 6 months after Completion) the Client prepares the snagging list to go over with the Contractor and, once things on the snagging list have been resolved by all parties, the retention monies are released to the Contractor.
This way everyone is protected. |
Not after. Payment on completion (of which snagging is a part).
As a business, I couldn't survive waiting half a year for my money. My customers know I'll go back and fix stuff if there's something subsequently discovered to be wrong (has rarely happened). | |
| |
| Samuel David Construction in Woodbridge on 10:56 - Aug 8 with 7776 views | SoleBayBlue |
| Samuel David Construction in Woodbridge on 10:17 - Aug 8 by Guthrum |
It is a luxury. But some of us smaller operators (especially one man bands) need at least to get the money for materials up front. And perhaps stage payments if it's a long job. |
We're having some work done at the moment, small company, so are doing staged payments, protects both parties. |  | | |
| Samuel David Construction in Woodbridge on 10:56 - Aug 8 with 7771 views | itfcjoe |
| Samuel David Construction in Woodbridge on 10:54 - Aug 8 by Guthrum |
Not after. Payment on completion (of which snagging is a part).
As a business, I couldn't survive waiting half a year for my money. My customers know I'll go back and fix stuff if there's something subsequently discovered to be wrong (has rarely happened). |
Yep that is how we are, retention isn't used properly nowadays so we snag upon completion and then go back for a much longer period than we should in reality! | |
| |
| Samuel David Construction in Woodbridge on 11:10 - Aug 8 with 7715 views | buoyant |
I know two businesses that were stung by him, neither of which will see a penny as their invoices were not "accounted" for. VAT man gets paid first etc etc
A few of the more persuasive businessmen (you'll know them) have also had their debts paid apparently.
Beyond that there are a number of individuals on the books that were not being paid towards the end and working on good will.
He went AWOL initially, not sure if he is back yet, but the wanted posters (I joke not) are no longer around town. |  |
| |
| Samuel David Construction in Woodbridge on 11:12 - Aug 8 with 7693 views | itfcjoe |
| Samuel David Construction in Woodbridge on 11:10 - Aug 8 by buoyant |
I know two businesses that were stung by him, neither of which will see a penny as their invoices were not "accounted" for. VAT man gets paid first etc etc
A few of the more persuasive businessmen (you'll know them) have also had their debts paid apparently.
Beyond that there are a number of individuals on the books that were not being paid towards the end and working on good will.
He went AWOL initially, not sure if he is back yet, but the wanted posters (I joke not) are no longer around town. |
Without going into too much detail, people like him will always pop up somewhere else smelling of roses and go again without a care in the world.
There's a couple about who I'm surprised have the front to even leave their house | |
| |
| Samuel David Construction in Woodbridge on 11:15 - Aug 8 with 7676 views | TVRBlue |
| Samuel David Construction in Woodbridge on 10:46 - Aug 8 by itfcjoe |
Retention doesn't really work though - we don't work on jobs which have it as it never works properly.
Most builders I know will openly and in an up front manner up the price by the amount of retention as know you never end up getting it all. |
The retention clause can be omitted from the Contract if all parties are happy to have it removed. However, it doesn't give the Client much protection if it is removed.
I am not disputing what you say in your second paragraph Joe but surely this is unfair on the Client? For example, a project costing £200K would have a 3% retention which would be £6,000. Are you saying Contractors would deliberately up their Contact price from £200K to £206K because of the retention clause? I can see it now...…."Yes Mr and Mrs X, we have prepared your quotation and whilst the job actually costs out at £200K we're going to charge you £206K!!!".
I do appreciate there are pluses and minuses of retention particularly between main contractors and sub-contractors but surely most builders would want to complete the works to a professional and competent standard and once they have done the work to the required standard the retention monies would be released in any case. Using the example above the project costs £200K and once the liability period has ended and anything on the schedule of defects has been addressed the Contractor is paid £200K and not £206K. That is fair for both parties isn't it?
I'm happy to accept you may have a different view on it Joe. | | | |
| Samuel David Construction in Woodbridge on 11:21 - Aug 8 with 7641 views | itfcjoe |
| Samuel David Construction in Woodbridge on 11:15 - Aug 8 by TVRBlue |
The retention clause can be omitted from the Contract if all parties are happy to have it removed. However, it doesn't give the Client much protection if it is removed.
I am not disputing what you say in your second paragraph Joe but surely this is unfair on the Client? For example, a project costing £200K would have a 3% retention which would be £6,000. Are you saying Contractors would deliberately up their Contact price from £200K to £206K because of the retention clause? I can see it now...…."Yes Mr and Mrs X, we have prepared your quotation and whilst the job actually costs out at £200K we're going to charge you £206K!!!".
I do appreciate there are pluses and minuses of retention particularly between main contractors and sub-contractors but surely most builders would want to complete the works to a professional and competent standard and once they have done the work to the required standard the retention monies would be released in any case. Using the example above the project costs £200K and once the liability period has ended and anything on the schedule of defects has been addressed the Contractor is paid £200K and not £206K. That is fair for both parties isn't it?
I'm happy to accept you may have a different view on it Joe. |
In principle it works like that, but in practice it doesn't
A number of Ts and Cs will now state, if retention is used we will up our price by that amount as effectively forces retention out of the contract.
Realistically most bills are settled after snagging, not on the nose at handover so there is effectively a retention anyway as customers will opt to hold something back if payment is required too quickly.
Just such a hassle to deal with every invoice having retention taken against it, then rebilling that later down the line etc.
Sure some people still use it, but it has died out for most people | |
| |
| Samuel David Construction in Woodbridge on 11:37 - Aug 8 with 7585 views | TVRBlue |
| Samuel David Construction in Woodbridge on 10:54 - Aug 8 by Guthrum |
Not after. Payment on completion (of which snagging is a part).
As a business, I couldn't survive waiting half a year for my money. My customers know I'll go back and fix stuff if there's something subsequently discovered to be wrong (has rarely happened). |
Firstly, I don't doubt for one second that you wouldn't go back and fix stuff Guthrum. As I mentioned above in this thread all good Contractors and Sub-Contractors would want to ensure they complete the works to a high standard.
Am I correct you are a decorating contractor? If so, on a £10,000 decorating Contract you'd be paid 97% of the Contract Sum when you complete the works (Practical Completion) which would be £9,700. You'd only be waiting for the remaining £300 for the retention period during which you'd be working on your next project.
Apologies if I've misunderstood. | | | |
| Samuel David Construction in Woodbridge on 11:41 - Aug 8 with 7564 views | TVRBlue |
| Samuel David Construction in Woodbridge on 11:21 - Aug 8 by itfcjoe |
In principle it works like that, but in practice it doesn't
A number of Ts and Cs will now state, if retention is used we will up our price by that amount as effectively forces retention out of the contract.
Realistically most bills are settled after snagging, not on the nose at handover so there is effectively a retention anyway as customers will opt to hold something back if payment is required too quickly.
Just such a hassle to deal with every invoice having retention taken against it, then rebilling that later down the line etc.
Sure some people still use it, but it has died out for most people |
No worries.
Thanks for clarifying. | | | |
| Samuel David Construction in Woodbridge on 12:02 - Aug 8 with 7525 views | Guthrum |
| Samuel David Construction in Woodbridge on 11:37 - Aug 8 by TVRBlue |
Firstly, I don't doubt for one second that you wouldn't go back and fix stuff Guthrum. As I mentioned above in this thread all good Contractors and Sub-Contractors would want to ensure they complete the works to a high standard.
Am I correct you are a decorating contractor? If so, on a £10,000 decorating Contract you'd be paid 97% of the Contract Sum when you complete the works (Practical Completion) which would be £9,700. You'd only be waiting for the remaining £300 for the retention period during which you'd be working on your next project.
Apologies if I've misunderstood. |
My projects are nowhere near that much and as little as 3% probably not worth holding back! Typically I'd leave between a third and the whole of the labour for the final payment, so a significant sum. | |
| |
| |
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
