| Obviously I feel very sorry for the victim (RIP) 00:05 - Feb 7 with 6365 views | The_Romford_Blue |
BUT..
I also feel a bit sad for the murderer (which seems such a strange thing to type). He clearly should've been in a unit of some sort and has stated how sorry he is and all that. It's a shame an attack of schizophrenia has meant he's gone on a rampage uncontrollably (and probably without even knowing what he was doing) which has left somebody dead. Of course this is assuming that the conclusion of an attack of schizophrenia is true - not sure how specialists know either way though they are apparently are good at making judgements on fake and real cases.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-38878443 |  |
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| Obviously I feel very sorry for the victim (RIP) on 12:16 - Feb 7 with 3705 views | OxfordTH_1981 |
I think your comments are deeply insensitive and insulting to the victim and her family.
Anyone who knows they are suffering from this type of acute disease (which he did) has a duty to either turn themselves into the Police or a mental health unit, and to take medication. |  | | |
| Obviously I feel very sorry for the victim (RIP) on 12:22 - Feb 7 with 3678 views | Darth_Koont |
| Obviously I feel very sorry for the victim (RIP) on 12:16 - Feb 7 by OxfordTH_1981 |
I think your comments are deeply insensitive and insulting to the victim and her family.
Anyone who knows they are suffering from this type of acute disease (which he did) has a duty to either turn themselves into the Police or a mental health unit, and to take medication. |
Yes, those bloody people with mental health issues that don't think logically of the consequences to society ... they should pull themselves together. |  |
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| Obviously I feel very sorry for the victim (RIP) on 12:26 - Feb 7 with 3652 views | OxfordTH_1981 |
| Obviously I feel very sorry for the victim (RIP) on 12:22 - Feb 7 by Darth_Koont |
Yes, those bloody people with mental health issues that don't think logically of the consequences to society ... they should pull themselves together. |
The point about schizophrenia is that the victim goes in and out of the condition. There are plenty of lucid moments when the person has full capacity. That is the point. | | | |
| Obviously I feel very sorry for the victim (RIP) on 12:44 - Feb 7 with 3580 views | Darth_Koont |
| Obviously I feel very sorry for the victim (RIP) on 12:26 - Feb 7 by OxfordTH_1981 |
The point about schizophrenia is that the victim goes in and out of the condition. There are plenty of lucid moments when the person has full capacity. That is the point. |
Of course. But they've mostly been managing that all their lives rather than checking into a mental health unit or police station at the first sign of trouble that may not even develop into an episode. | |
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| Obviously I feel very sorry for the victim (RIP) on 12:53 - Feb 7 with 3519 views | TLA |
| Obviously I feel very sorry for the victim (RIP) on 12:26 - Feb 7 by OxfordTH_1981 |
The point about schizophrenia is that the victim goes in and out of the condition. There are plenty of lucid moments when the person has full capacity. That is the point. |
My sympathy in this case is obviously with the victims.
The discussion about a condition like schizophrenia is quite complex. During those times of wellness and being lucid, someone doesn't need to 'be in a unit' (as Rommy puts it). When they start to become unwell, they often don't interpret symptoms as illness and it can be hard for other people to pick up on that - in fact someone who is experiencing voices, paranoia etc. may fight hard to disguise that because of the fear they experience.
I'm sure many people, thinking lucidly would 'hand themselves over' but it's not how a condition like schizophrenia works. Thankfully, it's very rare for it to result in situations like this one, although it is tragic when it does. |  | | |
| Obviously I feel very sorry for the victim (RIP) on 12:56 - Feb 7 with 3502 views | Guthrum |
| Obviously I feel very sorry for the victim (RIP) on 12:16 - Feb 7 by OxfordTH_1981 |
I think your comments are deeply insensitive and insulting to the victim and her family.
Anyone who knows they are suffering from this type of acute disease (which he did) has a duty to either turn themselves into the Police or a mental health unit, and to take medication. |
What happens when the police say it's not their problem and there is no mental health unit willing or able to take them? I had this happen to a friend of mine some years ago (and there is no reason to think things have improved since). Or, if they have been taken care of, when they're released back into the community with minimum support and supervision? As happened to two other people I knew, one of whom ended up committing suicide.
Besides which, you're implying that all schitzophrenics are aware of an impending episode, rather then just slipping into a state of irrationality. [Post edited 7 Feb 2017 12:57]
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| Obviously I feel very sorry for the victim (RIP) on 13:05 - Feb 7 with 3447 views | WD19 |
| Obviously I feel very sorry for the victim (RIP) on 12:16 - Feb 7 by OxfordTH_1981 |
I think your comments are deeply insensitive and insulting to the victim and her family.
Anyone who knows they are suffering from this type of acute disease (which he did) has a duty to either turn themselves into the Police or a mental health unit, and to take medication. |
Since when has feeling 'a bit sad' qualified as 'deeply insensitive and insulting'!?
I can only assume you are trolling.
Or a bit thick. |  | | |
| Obviously I feel very sorry for the victim (RIP) on 13:15 - Feb 7 with 3381 views | The_Romford_Blue |
| Obviously I feel very sorry for the victim (RIP) on 12:53 - Feb 7 by TLA |
My sympathy in this case is obviously with the victims.
The discussion about a condition like schizophrenia is quite complex. During those times of wellness and being lucid, someone doesn't need to 'be in a unit' (as Rommy puts it). When they start to become unwell, they often don't interpret symptoms as illness and it can be hard for other people to pick up on that - in fact someone who is experiencing voices, paranoia etc. may fight hard to disguise that because of the fear they experience.
I'm sure many people, thinking lucidly would 'hand themselves over' but it's not how a condition like schizophrenia works. Thankfully, it's very rare for it to result in situations like this one, although it is tragic when it does. |
In some sort of care and being watched perhaps is a better way of putting it.
But they knew he had episodes and still let him go a few months prior | |
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| Obviously I feel very sorry for the victim (RIP) on 13:22 - Feb 7 with 3350 views | dickie |
| Obviously I feel very sorry for the victim (RIP) on 12:16 - Feb 7 by OxfordTH_1981 |
I think your comments are deeply insensitive and insulting to the victim and her family.
Anyone who knows they are suffering from this type of acute disease (which he did) has a duty to either turn themselves into the Police or a mental health unit, and to take medication. |
You are the one being deeply insensitive (or trolling). You clearly know nothing about paranoid schizophrenia or how the mind of a mentally person works. Get off your high horse, the original post was delicately put and genuinely sympathetic to all those involved (including the mentally ill perpetrator) | | | |
| Obviously I feel very sorry for the victim (RIP) on 13:29 - Feb 7 with 3317 views | Guthrum |
| Obviously I feel very sorry for the victim (RIP) on 13:15 - Feb 7 by The_Romford_Blue |
In some sort of care and being watched perhaps is a better way of putting it.
But they knew he had episodes and still let him go a few months prior |
Where would they put him? Many of the old institutions have been closed and demolished/converted into apartments (to be fair, they were often Victorian and quite grim).
For example, the inpatient mental health provision in Gloucestershire has reduced from nearly a thousand beds down to a few dozen since the early 1990s. | |
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| Obviously I feel very sorry for the victim (RIP) on 13:38 - Feb 7 with 3268 views | TLA |
| Obviously I feel very sorry for the victim (RIP) on 13:15 - Feb 7 by The_Romford_Blue |
In some sort of care and being watched perhaps is a better way of putting it.
But they knew he had episodes and still let him go a few months prior |
Your opening post was good Rommy - I didn't mean to make it sound otherwise by quoting you in my post.
As I said this as a complex issue. Some people diagnosed with schizophrenia will have long periods of being very well but may experience episodes throughout their life. If this person was discharged from hospital with a care plan, that would be fairly usual. Unlike in times gone by, people are not detained indefinitely, which is obviously a good thing.
However, it's very hard to tell if someone is relapsing. I used to work with young people with similar conditions and, due to how distressing it can be to spend time on a psychiatric ward, they would hide symptoms (or try to deny them to themselves), to avoid having to be detained against their will. Because we offered a regular service through social groups and activities, it was actually easier for us to pick up on changes in behaviour than it was for people who only saw clients for an hour a week.
The Panorama programme last night highlighted that 25,000 psychiatric beds have been lost in fifteen years. That means the chances of someone being admitted when they are able to declare being a danger to themselves or others is very low. Also, some people whose care requires daily appointments are only seen monthly. Usually, this presents a huge risk to them, and not others, hence the rise in suicide rates and other deaths associated with mental illness. It is very rare for it to lead to situations like this case, and very tragic when it does. [Post edited 7 Feb 2017 13:46]
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| Obviously I feel very sorry for the victim (RIP) on 13:44 - Feb 7 with 3232 views | The_Romford_Blue |
| Obviously I feel very sorry for the victim (RIP) on 13:38 - Feb 7 by TLA |
Your opening post was good Rommy - I didn't mean to make it sound otherwise by quoting you in my post.
As I said this as a complex issue. Some people diagnosed with schizophrenia will have long periods of being very well but may experience episodes throughout their life. If this person was discharged from hospital with a care plan, that would be fairly usual. Unlike in times gone by, people are not detained indefinitely, which is obviously a good thing.
However, it's very hard to tell if someone is relapsing. I used to work with young people with similar conditions and, due to how distressing it can be to spend time on a psychiatric ward, they would hide symptoms (or try to deny them to themselves), to avoid having to be detained against their will. Because we offered a regular service through social groups and activities, it was actually easier for us to pick up on changes in behaviour than it was for people who only saw clients for an hour a week.
The Panorama programme last night highlighted that 25,000 psychiatric beds have been lost in fifteen years. That means the chances of someone being admitted when they are able to declare being a danger to themselves or others is very low. Also, some people whose care requires daily appointments are only seen monthly. Usually, this presents a huge risk to them, and not others, hence the rise in suicide rates and other deaths associated with mental illness. It is very rare for it to lead to situations like this case, and very tragic when it does. [Post edited 7 Feb 2017 13:46]
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Yeah I didn't want to look insensitive to the victim. I think it's terrible that the article doesn't mention his schizophrenia until halfway down the page.
25k!! Wow. That's a ridiculous number.
It's sad to think of the lives lost in both the victim and attacker all because of an illness where he undoubtedly wouldn't have known what he was doing | |
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| Obviously I feel very sorry for the victim (RIP) on 13:56 - Feb 7 with 3178 views | TLA |
| Obviously I feel very sorry for the victim (RIP) on 13:44 - Feb 7 by The_Romford_Blue |
Yeah I didn't want to look insensitive to the victim. I think it's terrible that the article doesn't mention his schizophrenia until halfway down the page.
25k!! Wow. That's a ridiculous number.
It's sad to think of the lives lost in both the victim and attacker all because of an illness where he undoubtedly wouldn't have known what he was doing |
You certainly start some thought-provoking threads.
I posted on another thread recently that in around 2010, the Norfolk Mental Health Trust (before the merger with Suffolk) almost seemed proud of the reduction in psychiatric beds needed/available - I'm guessing that this was because of the pressure to prove how well community care worked. My GP friend challenged this at an AGM by saying five of her patients had died by suicide who might not have given the option of inpatient care.
I believe in community-based care but, if not resourced correctly, it will lead to loss of life. This is almost always of the person experiencing a mental health condition but, in rare cases like this, other people too. The media response can then create a culture where people experiencing problems won't seek help because of the stigma, thus increasing the chances of more bad outcomes. It's a vicious circle that's hard to fix. | | | |
| Obviously I feel very sorry for the victim (RIP) on 14:04 - Feb 7 with 3138 views | The_Romford_Blue |
| Obviously I feel very sorry for the victim (RIP) on 13:56 - Feb 7 by TLA |
You certainly start some thought-provoking threads.
I posted on another thread recently that in around 2010, the Norfolk Mental Health Trust (before the merger with Suffolk) almost seemed proud of the reduction in psychiatric beds needed/available - I'm guessing that this was because of the pressure to prove how well community care worked. My GP friend challenged this at an AGM by saying five of her patients had died by suicide who might not have given the option of inpatient care.
I believe in community-based care but, if not resourced correctly, it will lead to loss of life. This is almost always of the person experiencing a mental health condition but, in rare cases like this, other people too. The media response can then create a culture where people experiencing problems won't seek help because of the stigma, thus increasing the chances of more bad outcomes. It's a vicious circle that's hard to fix. |
I guess I do like mixing it up a little on here
They presumably want to make their names numbers look great whilst ignoring the fundamental issues | |
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| Obviously I feel very sorry for the victim (RIP) on 14:10 - Feb 7 with 3120 views | TLA |
| Obviously I feel very sorry for the victim (RIP) on 14:04 - Feb 7 by The_Romford_Blue |
I guess I do like mixing it up a little on here
They presumably want to make their names numbers look great whilst ignoring the fundamental issues |
I guess like with other health issues, it's how you balance caring for people against the money available.
Mental health problems account for at least 25% of healthcare needs but get 11% of the health budget. That's not taking into account that people with severe and enduring mental health problems also die 10 years younger than the national average from physical health conditions.
However, this is not my platform so I'll keep a lid on things! | | | |
| Obviously I feel very sorry for the victim (RIP) on 16:35 - Feb 7 with 2923 views | OxfordTH_1981 |
| Obviously I feel very sorry for the victim (RIP) on 12:56 - Feb 7 by Guthrum |
What happens when the police say it's not their problem and there is no mental health unit willing or able to take them? I had this happen to a friend of mine some years ago (and there is no reason to think things have improved since). Or, if they have been taken care of, when they're released back into the community with minimum support and supervision? As happened to two other people I knew, one of whom ended up committing suicide.
Besides which, you're implying that all schitzophrenics are aware of an impending episode, rather then just slipping into a state of irrationality. [Post edited 7 Feb 2017 12:57]
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Those are all valid points.
My suggestion is that someone with the condition should take all reasonable steps to mitigate the risk of them causing significant harm. Obviously, if those steps are unsuccessful then, realistically, there is not much more that can be done. | | | |
| Obviously I feel very sorry for the victim (RIP) on 16:46 - Feb 7 with 2904 views | OxfordTH_1981 |
| Obviously I feel very sorry for the victim (RIP) on 13:05 - Feb 7 by WD19 |
Since when has feeling 'a bit sad' qualified as 'deeply insensitive and insulting'!?
I can only assume you are trolling.
Or a bit thick. |
No. It is not thick to take a view which you may not share.
Expressing concern for the murderer and focussing on their well being would probably be insensitive to the family. That's all. It's a simple point. | | | |
| Obviously I feel very sorry for the victim (RIP) on 16:51 - Feb 7 with 2889 views | Benters |
Good work Rommy you mention the victim in what 8 words ? but the attacking fckwit gets a full story !
How would you feel if it had been your mum he attacked ? would you be so understanding? |  |
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| Obviously I feel very sorry for the victim (RIP) on 16:53 - Feb 7 with 2875 views | manchego |
| Obviously I feel very sorry for the victim (RIP) on 16:46 - Feb 7 by OxfordTH_1981 |
No. It is not thick to take a view which you may not share.
Expressing concern for the murderer and focussing on their well being would probably be insensitive to the family. That's all. It's a simple point. |
Did you read the title of the thread ?
I don't think the OP is insensitive at all. He made that very clear in the title. |  | | |
| Obviously I feel very sorry for the victim (RIP) on 16:55 - Feb 7 with 2861 views | J2BLUE |
| Obviously I feel very sorry for the victim (RIP) on 16:51 - Feb 7 by Benters |
Good work Rommy you mention the victim in what 8 words ? but the attacking fckwit gets a full story !
How would you feel if it had been your mum he attacked ? would you be so understanding? |
Clearly he wouldn't be because rational thinking would go out of the window. It doesn't bode well for your argument that you need to take rational thinking out of the equation. I can see his point. It doesn't change the crime committed but it must be taken into account. |  |
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| Obviously I feel very sorry for the victim (RIP) on 16:56 - Feb 7 with 2850 views | Benters |
| Obviously I feel very sorry for the victim (RIP) on 16:55 - Feb 7 by J2BLUE |
Clearly he wouldn't be because rational thinking would go out of the window. It doesn't bode well for your argument that you need to take rational thinking out of the equation. I can see his point. It doesn't change the crime committed but it must be taken into account. |
Can you see my point? | |
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| Obviously I feel very sorry for the victim (RIP) on 16:57 - Feb 7 with 2843 views | taximan |
| Obviously I feel very sorry for the victim (RIP) on 16:55 - Feb 7 by J2BLUE |
Clearly he wouldn't be because rational thinking would go out of the window. It doesn't bode well for your argument that you need to take rational thinking out of the equation. I can see his point. It doesn't change the crime committed but it must be taken into account. |
i filed this under "uppie fishing"
not as successful as previous attempts | | | |
| Obviously I feel very sorry for the victim (RIP) on 16:59 - Feb 7 with 2835 views | Tollycobbold |
Now if he sat in an office and ordered a drone to kill them he'd get a Nobel Peace Prize. Funny old world |  | | |
| Obviously I feel very sorry for the victim (RIP) on 17:04 - Feb 7 with 2803 views | Benters |
| Obviously I feel very sorry for the victim (RIP) on 16:57 - Feb 7 by taximan |
i filed this under "uppie fishing"
not as successful as previous attempts |
Thats the trouble dear chap,if the said attacker had mullered one of Rommys family members would he have been so understanding ?
No of course not.
Im out. | |
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| Obviously I feel very sorry for the victim (RIP) on 17:13 - Feb 7 with 2775 views | OxfordTH_1981 |
| Obviously I feel very sorry for the victim (RIP) on 16:53 - Feb 7 by manchego |
Did you read the title of the thread ?
I don't think the OP is insensitive at all. He made that very clear in the title. |
Well we disagree then. | | | |
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