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So thrilled when we heard Hurst's first press conference. That friendly against West Ham with Nydam Downes and Dozzell bossing the midfield. Woolfenden looking cool and composed at the back. Now bottom of the league with 6 loanees a la Paul Jewell, the young academy talent overlooked or loaned out . Really concerned for us now, more than ever in my 50 years supporting ITFC. Oh I so hope this experiment works but feeling quite despondent about it all. 3 points against Norwich will cheer me up.
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The dream is turning into a nightmare on 21:54 - Aug 31 with 2796 views
The dream is turning into a nightmare on 21:04 - Aug 31 by Mullet
Before or when Hurst joined? Again you simply aren't paying attention to the timeline or decisions made.
Hurst made a rallying call and Webster made it clear he wanted out and had Bristol waiting, Garner (as Phil confirmed)was set to stay. It was deadline day when PH and ME made the decision that Wigan's offer was too good. Likewise Waghorn wasn't turned until a bid came in long after Hurst started.
Given the list of outs were loans, and a lot of peripheral players, the idea that an overhaul was necessary rather than the squad needed adjustments just isn't correct. As your lack of "grasp" on events shows.
To me, it looked as though Hurst made the rallying cry and Webster perhaps didn’t really fancy the physical nature of what was being asked - it wouldn’t be the first time a tough pre-season has put a player off. With his injury record, perhaps he was wise. In the end, it was a good move for all concerned and we need to deal with the outcome.
It's 106 miles to Portman Road, we've got a full tank of gas, half a round of Port Salut, it's dark... and we're wearing blue tinted sunglasses.
We have to forget about the West Ham friendly. In terms of preparing ourselves for playing in the Championship we might as well have been playing against amateurs.
Pronouns: He/Him
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The dream is turning into a nightmare on 22:06 - Aug 31 with 2768 views
The dream is turning into a nightmare on 21:04 - Aug 31 by Mullet
Before or when Hurst joined? Again you simply aren't paying attention to the timeline or decisions made.
Hurst made a rallying call and Webster made it clear he wanted out and had Bristol waiting, Garner (as Phil confirmed)was set to stay. It was deadline day when PH and ME made the decision that Wigan's offer was too good. Likewise Waghorn wasn't turned until a bid came in long after Hurst started.
Given the list of outs were loans, and a lot of peripheral players, the idea that an overhaul was necessary rather than the squad needed adjustments just isn't correct. As your lack of "grasp" on events shows.
I may be wrong but I thought it was common knowledge that Garner wanted out for personal reasons, Waghorn as he was being offered a shedload more dough from a number of clubs. Not sure either can be blamed at PH.
That said we are missing a Lawrence/Celina type player on loan especially if we continue to play with 1 up top.
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The dream is turning into a nightmare on 22:13 - Aug 31 with 2746 views
The dream is turning into a nightmare on 20:46 - Aug 31 by PositivelyPortman
Can’t believe how impatient some fans are being. Please stay calm and give PH and his team a chance. We’ve been really unlucky with the way results have gone, plus the red card decisions, plus Bart taking a little time in settling this season. So now, deep breaths and let’s have some positivity ffs.
The dream is turning into a nightmare on 21:52 - Aug 31 by Mullet
That many of these players were either short term cover for injuries to players like Garner or the regular churn of loans. To say they were key parts of the squad and the basis of an inevitable overhaul is frankly wrong.
Again this binary thinking of pointing something out must be criticism or phrased as praise is clouding yet another thread.
How many fans would have expected Nydam and Dozzell to be marked for loans alongside Downes and the the returning Emmanuel, as well as Morris and Woolfenden etc? You'd say some of those players maybe and some to be the ones to make up the squad given their development.
The idea that all of Hurst's signings in and out were necessary when he joined and therefore so was this "overhaul" when we expected a few additions and some movement is simply rewriting history and ignoring circumstance and events.
Let alone what Hurst said and did, when. Alongside the fact that fans can reserve to the right to be (un)happy at specific moves, but there are the same tedious hypocrites telling people not to moan when they did nothing but for the past year or more. Let alone those who walked out only to come back with the blinkers and loudspeakers on.
It'd be great if all of these signings worked out, but it goes against Hurst's previous work and suggests that maybe he and Evans didn't see eye to eye after a few weeks of working on the task in hand.
Where have I said you are criticising? If anything, that’s a conclusion you’re jumping to. I’m simply challenging your apparent suggestion that the rebuilding was either initiated or pre-meditated by Hurst. this is a discussion about that, isn’t it?
Whether short term cover or otherwise, we’ve lost players who contributed almost 50% of last season minutes. That requires a rebuilding process. The departure of Webster, Waghorn AND Garner almost certainly wasn’t expected by Hurst.
FWIW, (and we’re all guessing here - no point any of us claiming otherwise) I suspect Hurst came in with an open mind. He had a fortnight before the players arrived back, but will have expected to sign *some* players because of the number we had lost since the end of the season. It also seems that some of the advance reports he had from the coaching staff didn’t chime with his own judgement on some of our players. Plus, of course, the injured players weren’t recovering as quickly as we might all have expected.
So, there we are, mid/late June, barely a month until the start of the season needing more reinforcements, plus the right players to fit into a new system, three key players leaving the club. I don’t think any of us should underestimate the scale of that project.
In the circumstances, it seems to me that Hurst has moved and adapted pretty quickly, Evans has made the cash available quickly, the backdrop to a team which seems to be adapting to the new systempretty well - but for some defensive slips at set pieces and the fact we’re not quite clicking in attack.
Anyway, we can debate this till the cows come hom. Fact is, for the first time, the merry go round has stopped, we have what we have in terms of personnel, Big game Sunday and then two weeks to get the system clicking properly at Hull. I don’t really think there is anything positive to be gained from picking over the coals beyond that.
I remember the start of the John Lyall era. Battered at home by Sheffield Wednesday, lost away to Swindon, then fluked a last minute winner at West Brom. We weren't great that first season and ended 14th. Next season we won the league.
Under Royle in 2003-04 we had two points after six games. Ended the season 5th in the play-offs.
There were also several seasons under Burley when we were struggling early on. We were 4th bottom one season after 20 or so games, We finished 5th with well over 80 points.
The dream is turning into a nightmare on 22:06 - Aug 31 by StNeotsBlue
I may be wrong but I thought it was common knowledge that Garner wanted out for personal reasons, Waghorn as he was being offered a shedload more dough from a number of clubs. Not sure either can be blamed at PH.
That said we are missing a Lawrence/Celina type player on loan especially if we continue to play with 1 up top.
It was but as covered the decision to let both players go was long after Hurst joined.
The dream is turning into a nightmare on 20:40 - Aug 31 by Mullet
We didn't "need an overhaul" Hurst chose to have one. This is a very crucial distinction and one that needs to be seen in the fact he was praising the squad he inherited and what he had to work with.
This desire to cast or insinuate every negative as a legacy of Mick's time here is totally dishonest and inaccurate. Likewise pretending that Hurst is at Jewell levels of incompetence or we're in some sort of existential crisis needs knocking on the head.
It’s an interesting question isn’t it - did we NEED and overhaul? Well, not strictly I guess, but things definitively needed freshening up. So some players needed to be let go. Then we had a raft of loanees who were never going to be here this season. The fly in the ointment was Waghorn and the diver asking to leave.
It didn’t really leave Hurst with much choice did it? Much bigger change over than he expected, or probably wanted. It’s not really anything to do with Mick is it - nor Hurst in some ways.
The dream is turning into a nightmare on 22:15 - Aug 31 by Superfrans
Where have I said you are criticising? If anything, that’s a conclusion you’re jumping to. I’m simply challenging your apparent suggestion that the rebuilding was either initiated or pre-meditated by Hurst. this is a discussion about that, isn’t it?
Whether short term cover or otherwise, we’ve lost players who contributed almost 50% of last season minutes. That requires a rebuilding process. The departure of Webster, Waghorn AND Garner almost certainly wasn’t expected by Hurst.
FWIW, (and we’re all guessing here - no point any of us claiming otherwise) I suspect Hurst came in with an open mind. He had a fortnight before the players arrived back, but will have expected to sign *some* players because of the number we had lost since the end of the season. It also seems that some of the advance reports he had from the coaching staff didn’t chime with his own judgement on some of our players. Plus, of course, the injured players weren’t recovering as quickly as we might all have expected.
So, there we are, mid/late June, barely a month until the start of the season needing more reinforcements, plus the right players to fit into a new system, three key players leaving the club. I don’t think any of us should underestimate the scale of that project.
In the circumstances, it seems to me that Hurst has moved and adapted pretty quickly, Evans has made the cash available quickly, the backdrop to a team which seems to be adapting to the new systempretty well - but for some defensive slips at set pieces and the fact we’re not quite clicking in attack.
Anyway, we can debate this till the cows come hom. Fact is, for the first time, the merry go round has stopped, we have what we have in terms of personnel, Big game Sunday and then two weeks to get the system clicking properly at Hull. I don’t really think there is anything positive to be gained from picking over the coals beyond that.
Here’s to Sunday. Onwards and upwards. COYB!
I was talking about this thread and many others in general of late.
We’ve lost 50% now but not when Hurst joined, and you seem to come around and vindicate everything I’ve said. It’s a misleading stat because three or four players who missed all of last season are still here plus reserves like Gerken etc. A rebuild became necessary and that was down to the decisions made. People are rewriting and rationalising and there’s no middle way or balance.
The suggestion that Evans made no money available despite that clearly not being the case, demonstrates that perfectly. This idea that someone has to account blame or cast it elsewhere for everything is tiresome and unhelpful.
The dream is turning into a nightmare on 22:20 - Aug 31 by Mullet
It was but as covered the decision to let both players go was long after Hurst joined.
The point being though I don't feel he had a choice with the Garner or Waghorn deals but where I would be slightly critical is the failure to get a lawrence/Celina type in who can provide the link between midfield and up front, especially if we continue with one striker.
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The dream is turning into a nightmare on 22:40 - Aug 31 with 2683 views
The dream is turning into a nightmare on 22:23 - Aug 31 by Vic
It’s an interesting question isn’t it - did we NEED and overhaul? Well, not strictly I guess, but things definitively needed freshening up. So some players needed to be let go. Then we had a raft of loanees who were never going to be here this season. The fly in the ointment was Waghorn and the diver asking to leave.
It didn’t really leave Hurst with much choice did it? Much bigger change over than he expected, or probably wanted. It’s not really anything to do with Mick is it - nor Hurst in some ways.
Waghorn hurt. Really having him around could have made a huge difference. Yes he made noises about wanting to leave for more cash, but he was under contract and it could be fairly argued he could have been made to stand by it.
And the likes of Webster too. Despite the 'always injured' label, he was still seen as a potential decent signing for BC.
It's the money thing again though isn't it, every time. How do you turn that down?
The dream is turning into a nightmare on 21:52 - Aug 31 by Mullet
That many of these players were either short term cover for injuries to players like Garner or the regular churn of loans. To say they were key parts of the squad and the basis of an inevitable overhaul is frankly wrong.
Again this binary thinking of pointing something out must be criticism or phrased as praise is clouding yet another thread.
How many fans would have expected Nydam and Dozzell to be marked for loans alongside Downes and the the returning Emmanuel, as well as Morris and Woolfenden etc? You'd say some of those players maybe and some to be the ones to make up the squad given their development.
The idea that all of Hurst's signings in and out were necessary when he joined and therefore so was this "overhaul" when we expected a few additions and some movement is simply rewriting history and ignoring circumstance and events.
Let alone what Hurst said and did, when. Alongside the fact that fans can reserve to the right to be (un)happy at specific moves, but there are the same tedious hypocrites telling people not to moan when they did nothing but for the past year or more. Let alone those who walked out only to come back with the blinkers and loudspeakers on.
It'd be great if all of these signings worked out, but it goes against Hurst's previous work and suggests that maybe he and Evans didn't see eye to eye after a few weeks of working on the task in hand.
Just for you Mullet as a fellow Mozza fan...Yes we sold some key players but equally did we think they would be key players at the start of last season? I'm more than happy for PH to build his own squad and be judged against their performances. But as they say....
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The dream is turning into a nightmare on 23:12 - Aug 31 with 2632 views
Hurst has sold three players, all of who wanted to leave apparently. And all for decent money. The rest were let go by the previous manager. The squad was bare bones as it was, hardly surprising he's brought on load of players.
If McCarthy had been here Wagh ok thanks would have gone, possibly Webster and garner.
Time will tell wether Hurst is the right choice but anyway you look at it we needed a lot of new players.
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The dream is turning into a nightmare on 23:15 - Aug 31 with 2630 views
The dream is turning into a nightmare on 23:12 - Aug 31 by dingus
Hurst has sold three players, all of who wanted to leave apparently. And all for decent money. The rest were let go by the previous manager. The squad was bare bones as it was, hardly surprising he's brought on load of players.
If McCarthy had been here Wagh ok thanks would have gone, possibly Webster and garner.
Time will tell wether Hurst is the right choice but anyway you look at it we needed a lot of new players.
*Waghorn
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The dream is turning into a nightmare on 23:15 - Aug 31 with 2628 views
The dream is turning into a nightmare on 23:12 - Aug 31 by dingus
Hurst has sold three players, all of who wanted to leave apparently. And all for decent money. The rest were let go by the previous manager. The squad was bare bones as it was, hardly surprising he's brought on load of players.
If McCarthy had been here Wagh ok thanks would have gone, possibly Webster and garner.
Time will tell wether Hurst is the right choice but anyway you look at it we needed a lot of new players.
The dream is turning into a nightmare on 22:27 - Aug 31 by Mullet
I was talking about this thread and many others in general of late.
We’ve lost 50% now but not when Hurst joined, and you seem to come around and vindicate everything I’ve said. It’s a misleading stat because three or four players who missed all of last season are still here plus reserves like Gerken etc. A rebuild became necessary and that was down to the decisions made. People are rewriting and rationalising and there’s no middle way or balance.
The suggestion that Evans made no money available despite that clearly not being the case, demonstrates that perfectly. This idea that someone has to account blame or cast it elsewhere for everything is tiresome and unhelpful.
Sorry, but you seem desperate not to listen to the basic fact - players representing 44% of our playing minutes last season have gone. Hurst had no control on whether any of those players went, whether he was in the building or not, unless you’re saying we should have tied Webster, Garner and Waghorn at the club against their will. Frankly, that’s an absurd suggestion.
Addressing this required significant surgery, far faster and far more extensive than anyone (Hurst included) could have expected this summer.
The players who didn’t play last season, but remain at the club (or not) are irrelevant.
I have no idea what your second paragraph means or is intended to suggest.
The dream is turning into a nightmare on 22:40 - Aug 31 by jeera
Waghorn hurt. Really having him around could have made a huge difference. Yes he made noises about wanting to leave for more cash, but he was under contract and it could be fairly argued he could have been made to stand by it.
And the likes of Webster too. Despite the 'always injured' label, he was still seen as a potential decent signing for BC.
It's the money thing again though isn't it, every time. How do you turn that down?
Especially for a club running at a loss.
Maybe I’m out on a limb on this. If a player is being offered life changing money and therefore wants to leave, I can’t see how you can stop him going. Yes, Waghorn, Garner and Webster were under contract, but how do you motivate a player when he has missed out on that kind of opportunity?
Of course, you’d hope a player would put club loyalty ahead of providing for his family. But can we really expect it?
It may also be that Garner and Webster didn’t fancy the new approach and, asked to shape up or ship out, took the latter option. Again, not a lot we can do about that.
The dream is turning into a nightmare on 22:27 - Aug 31 by Mullet
I was talking about this thread and many others in general of late.
We’ve lost 50% now but not when Hurst joined, and you seem to come around and vindicate everything I’ve said. It’s a misleading stat because three or four players who missed all of last season are still here plus reserves like Gerken etc. A rebuild became necessary and that was down to the decisions made. People are rewriting and rationalising and there’s no middle way or balance.
The suggestion that Evans made no money available despite that clearly not being the case, demonstrates that perfectly. This idea that someone has to account blame or cast it elsewhere for everything is tiresome and unhelpful.
I don’t think that anyone is blaming MM for the overhaul that was required. If we consider the players that have left, minus Garner, Webster & Waggy - did PH have any say in them leaving? Seems in most cases decisions had already been made by Klug & co. We’d of needed a minimum of 7-8 signings anyways you’d suspect? Then selling the mentioned three increases that somewhat. Of course, you could argue that they didn’t need selling, although all three wanted to leave for bigger contracts or personal reasons. The reality is, we had a lot of players who were on short term contracts/loans last season for one reason or another that needed replacing. I’m not sure that any of those released are all that big a miss in reality?
The youngsters I kind of see people’s points but at the same time, I can see why PH has made these choices. Nydam, for me should be here still over Edun. I’d argue that Edun is the better player now, but by how much, I don’t know. Dozzell is struggling fitness wise it’s appear. Downes is still in and around the first team picture. Those who have gone out on loan (with the exception of Nydam) all need games. Wolfy is still young and raw - a season in L2 is perfect to toughen him up, similar to Morris. These two and Nydam will hopefully come back much better players as a result of these loans. Emmanuel it appears that there is something missing there. PH clearly doesn’t rate him & from what Phil says, MM would’ve sold him.
Who knows at this stage if PH decisions are vindicated. But he needs more than 1 transfer window to really stamp his authority on this squad & really develop his philosophy.
The dream is turning into a nightmare on 23:34 - Aug 31 by Superfrans
Maybe I’m out on a limb on this. If a player is being offered life changing money and therefore wants to leave, I can’t see how you can stop him going. Yes, Waghorn, Garner and Webster were under contract, but how do you motivate a player when he has missed out on that kind of opportunity?
Of course, you’d hope a player would put club loyalty ahead of providing for his family. But can we really expect it?
It may also be that Garner and Webster didn’t fancy the new approach and, asked to shape up or ship out, took the latter option. Again, not a lot we can do about that.
No, I know all that too, and as I say, how do you refuse those offers in Town's situation?
Although it has been done before of course, and ME has shown it's not all about the money; Bart could have gone for a tidy sum, McGoldrick was refused a big cash move before of course, so it does happen.
I was just discussing the obvious really and that ultimately the final decision was with PH. Whether Waghorn was happy staying or not, he was under contract and so obliged. I suppose he could have staged a sit-in or something but realistically what could he have done if a move was refused? Promises could have been made for his future here maybe to inspire him?
I'm not going to pretend to know how it works. I really don't.
I was as excited about Hurst's arrival as the next optimist.
The dream is turning into a nightmare on 00:24 - Sep 1 by jeera
No, I know all that too, and as I say, how do you refuse those offers in Town's situation?
Although it has been done before of course, and ME has shown it's not all about the money; Bart could have gone for a tidy sum, McGoldrick was refused a big cash move before of course, so it does happen.
I was just discussing the obvious really and that ultimately the final decision was with PH. Whether Waghorn was happy staying or not, he was under contract and so obliged. I suppose he could have staged a sit-in or something but realistically what could he have done if a move was refused? Promises could have been made for his future here maybe to inspire him?
I'm not going to pretend to know how it works. I really don't.
I was as excited about Hurst's arrival as the next optimist.
I guess I was more reacting against the suggestion that Hurst *decided* to sell Waghorn, Garner and Webster, when it is much less straight forward than that - rather than disagreeing with you. Hurst didn’t really have much choice.
The dream is turning into a nightmare on 00:35 - Sep 1 by Superfrans
I guess I was more reacting against the suggestion that Hurst *decided* to sell Waghorn, Garner and Webster, when it is much less straight forward than that - rather than disagreeing with you. Hurst didn’t really have much choice.
Everyone was hoping for a more positive start if we're honest, and I think we're all just trying to make sense of it all.
I still feel relatively secure that the club is in ok hands and that a positive outcome is on the cards.
I get a bit tired of reading the same stuff about the owner day-in/day-out when really I think he's done his best with whatever he has. Mistakes have been made before regarding recruitment of managers but each time you'd find an element of the support more than excited at each prospect regardless, so he cannot shoulder all blame for getting some of it wrong.
The overhaul was required. Patience is the word. We shouldn't expect immediate results. As long as we are entertained and can avoid relegation this season I'm still upbeat about what is going on at the club. It's still very early days but I earge all Town fans to stay with what is happening right now. We have a young manager who is trying to stamp his mark and it will take time. Agree with you however on the Nydam, Dozzell front. In my opinion those boys are good enough for our first 11 and should be included and that also goes for Emanuel. But I'm not the manager so I'll give Hurst the benefit of the doubt for now.
AllalallalSunderland
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The dream is turning into a nightmare on 01:32 - Sep 1 with 2516 views
the thing is I dont remember anyone saying last season we had the perfect squad, it always seemed to be the view looking at around 6-7 signings in a transfer window to merely strengthen the team and replace players people didnt like, and then discounting them because we didnt think we'd ever be able to bring that many players in.
now we seem to have done that, people are panicking its too big a change at once, this season isnt the magic wand season where we suddenly end up in the playoffs, this is all about building something different long term that maybe next season, or even the one after finally syncs up.
50points thats the one big aim this season as far as Im concerned.
patience is a virtue, its about time modern football fans learned to deal with it, there are no quick fixes
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The dream is turning into a nightmare on 06:30 - Sep 1 with 2451 views
The dream is turning into a nightmare on 20:40 - Aug 31 by Mullet
We didn't "need an overhaul" Hurst chose to have one. This is a very crucial distinction and one that needs to be seen in the fact he was praising the squad he inherited and what he had to work with.
This desire to cast or insinuate every negative as a legacy of Mick's time here is totally dishonest and inaccurate. Likewise pretending that Hurst is at Jewell levels of incompetence or we're in some sort of existential crisis needs knocking on the head.
Is that really the case though?
If he wanted to change the style or the formation then isn't it more likely he needed different players? Would the existing team have ever finished higher than MM achieved?
The players who have come in could have decent sell on potential (obviously that's unknown at the moment), maybe that's what ME wanted? Maybe ME wanted an overhaul?
We don't really know do we?
Either way I totally agree with the second paragraph.
SB
Avatar - M51 - The Whirlpool Galaxy - Taken on 29th April 2024
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The dream is turning into a nightmare on 07:16 - Sep 1 with 2430 views
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