| The dream is turning into a nightmare 20:04 - Aug 31 with 10251 views | muhrensleftfoot |
So thrilled when we heard Hurst's first press conference. That friendly against West Ham with Nydam Downes and Dozzell bossing the midfield. Woolfenden looking cool and composed at the back. Now bottom of the league with 6 loanees a la Paul Jewell, the young academy talent overlooked or loaned out . Really concerned for us now, more than ever in my 50 years supporting ITFC. Oh I so hope this experiment works but feeling quite despondent about it all. 3 points against Norwich will cheer me up. |  | | |  |
| The dream is turning into a nightmare on 07:33 - Sep 1 with 1971 views | Superfrans |
| The dream is turning into a nightmare on 00:42 - Sep 1 by jeera |
Everyone was hoping for a more positive start if we're honest, and I think we're all just trying to make sense of it all.
I still feel relatively secure that the club is in ok hands and that a positive outcome is on the cards.
I get a bit tired of reading the same stuff about the owner day-in/day-out when really I think he's done his best with whatever he has. Mistakes have been made before regarding recruitment of managers but each time you'd find an element of the support more than excited at each prospect regardless, so he cannot shoulder all blame for getting some of it wrong. |
The unfortunate thing is that too many fans are still so entrenched in positions they took up last season (or before), regarding either Mick, any new manager or the owner, they refuse to see clearly what is going on right now.
I do think that these are the minority though. The vast majority of our fans are embracing change and will support a team which tries to play football, attacks the opposition and works hard. The two home games this season have both been pretty positive and I’m sure tomorrow will be no different,
“Tomorrow”! Wow! Can’t wait. |  |
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| The dream is turning into a nightmare on 07:56 - Sep 1 with 1949 views | Plums |
| The dream is turning into a nightmare on 00:35 - Sep 1 by Superfrans |
I guess I was more reacting against the suggestion that Hurst *decided* to sell Waghorn, Garner and Webster, when it is much less straight forward than that - rather than disagreeing with you. Hurst didn’t really have much choice. |
Nobody has mentioned the market.
It was well known that we as a club had just appointed a new manager who wouldn’t be getting a war chest from the owner. Therefore any club with an eye on any of our assets knew that a reasonable bid and offer of increased wages to key players would be welcomed, even if those players were ostensibly ‘not for sale’. Hurst had to sell in order to put his stamp on the squad. We and he had no option. |  |
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| The dream is turning into a nightmare on 07:57 - Sep 1 with 1948 views | BlueAllOver |
| The dream is turning into a nightmare on 07:33 - Sep 1 by Superfrans |
The unfortunate thing is that too many fans are still so entrenched in positions they took up last season (or before), regarding either Mick, any new manager or the owner, they refuse to see clearly what is going on right now.
I do think that these are the minority though. The vast majority of our fans are embracing change and will support a team which tries to play football, attacks the opposition and works hard. The two home games this season have both been pretty positive and I’m sure tomorrow will be no different,
“Tomorrow”! Wow! Can’t wait. |
Is the football much different?, keep seeing this time and time again,
yet the stats in the post below (don;t know how to embed) don't suggest a great shift in our play. This backs up my personal view of having seen games, we are not playing
out from the back, and not playing fast free flowing football as some would make out.
This isn't a criticism of PH, more an observation. Really hoping for a positive result tomorrow, the panic signings in the last week don't give the indication of a Manager whos been happy with his own recruitment, but again hopefully they will work out.
COYB!
by itfcjoe on 13:46 - Aug 28 with 618 views
I may be being harsh, and whilst I can see what Hurst is trying to do, the football isn't particularly good. It's better than Mick's but you look on whoscored.com
Goals - 22nd
Possession percentage - 16th
Pass Accuracy - 21st
Aerials won - 3rd (indicating lots of long balls by both sides)
Shots on Target per game - 24th
Long balls per game - 3rd
Short passes per game - 18th
Last season we averaged 85 long balls a a game, this season it is 83. Last season we averaged 278 short passes per game, this year it is 274.
Stats can obviously show what you want them to at times, but these seem fairly clear. |  | | |
| The dream is turning into a nightmare on 08:21 - Sep 1 with 1936 views | Mullet |
| The dream is turning into a nightmare on 23:28 - Aug 31 by Superfrans |
Sorry, but you seem desperate not to listen to the basic fact - players representing 44% of our playing minutes last season have gone. Hurst had no control on whether any of those players went, whether he was in the building or not, unless you’re saying we should have tied Webster, Garner and Waghorn at the club against their will. Frankly, that’s an absurd suggestion.
Addressing this required significant surgery, far faster and far more extensive than anyone (Hurst included) could have expected this summer.
The players who didn’t play last season, but remain at the club (or not) are irrelevant.
I have no idea what your second paragraph means or is intended to suggest. |
Dozzell, Huws and Bishop are irrelevant, especially in the eyes of fans? I can see Rowe and Adeyemi being labelled that way, but I'm sorry when people are citing Gleeson and Carayol as well as loanees who were cover for injured players and players who got injured like Garner, it's just further embedding the point they are being a little bit dishonest with the reality.
Again, these are all choices Hurst has made, and again it's taken the club 2-3 months to get into this position whatever people think of it, because he has made the decisions he has. The idea that either all or none were forced/inevitable/separate from one another is laughable. Let alone from the moment he stepped in the door, which seems to be lost on certain people conveniently.
Vic has had it right and a few others. It's quite clear that he has seen things along the way and this has led to so many changes - the case of Ward and Sears being a good one. Some players clearly don't fit into his philosophy as much as he anticipated.
We're talking about a manager who doesn't like big squads and yet has amassed one and dismantled it in one window, not the usual 2 or 3 he takes. That makes me ask questions of Evans not the squad.
I'm not in favour of keeping players but all three were likely to be mainstays in fans' eyes long after Hurst got here in the case of Garner who we were going to keep until the last day, Webster made his own move, Waghorn was the only one expected to be sold.
The idea Hurst was going to, or needed to buy and sell so much just wasn't talked about. People pretending it always was, are just making the problem worse. What we really need, is a win Sunday and these players he brought to perform to a higher standard. |  |
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| The dream is turning into a nightmare on 08:29 - Sep 1 with 1923 views | tiptreeblue |
| The dream is turning into a nightmare on 08:21 - Sep 1 by Mullet |
Dozzell, Huws and Bishop are irrelevant, especially in the eyes of fans? I can see Rowe and Adeyemi being labelled that way, but I'm sorry when people are citing Gleeson and Carayol as well as loanees who were cover for injured players and players who got injured like Garner, it's just further embedding the point they are being a little bit dishonest with the reality.
Again, these are all choices Hurst has made, and again it's taken the club 2-3 months to get into this position whatever people think of it, because he has made the decisions he has. The idea that either all or none were forced/inevitable/separate from one another is laughable. Let alone from the moment he stepped in the door, which seems to be lost on certain people conveniently.
Vic has had it right and a few others. It's quite clear that he has seen things along the way and this has led to so many changes - the case of Ward and Sears being a good one. Some players clearly don't fit into his philosophy as much as he anticipated.
We're talking about a manager who doesn't like big squads and yet has amassed one and dismantled it in one window, not the usual 2 or 3 he takes. That makes me ask questions of Evans not the squad.
I'm not in favour of keeping players but all three were likely to be mainstays in fans' eyes long after Hurst got here in the case of Garner who we were going to keep until the last day, Webster made his own move, Waghorn was the only one expected to be sold.
The idea Hurst was going to, or needed to buy and sell so much just wasn't talked about. People pretending it always was, are just making the problem worse. What we really need, is a win Sunday and these players he brought to perform to a higher standard. |
What we really need, is a win Sunday and these players he brought to perform to a higher standard.
Well said, now, how about instead of coming on here and finding something to moan about, why don`t you try and encourage them ?. That may just help a little |  | | |
| The dream is turning into a nightmare on 08:36 - Sep 1 with 1910 views | Mullet |
| The dream is turning into a nightmare on 08:29 - Sep 1 by tiptreeblue |
What we really need, is a win Sunday and these players he brought to perform to a higher standard.
Well said, now, how about instead of coming on here and finding something to moan about, why don`t you try and encourage them ?. That may just help a little |
I wasn't moaning, not even in the slightest about the players or Hurst. I've attended the majority of games this season and put plenty of miles in already. Why do I or anyone else need to justify that any way as soon as any debate about Hurst comes up?
I'm not happy about what I've seen in some regards, nor being bottom but my support for the team isn't something the likes of you can question.
Instead of taking personal pops and getting them wrong, why not actually read what's written and not twist it? This is exactly my point, people like you make personal snide remarks and try to do people down then get all uppity.
The hypocrisy is astounding. | |
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| The dream is turning into a nightmare on 08:51 - Sep 1 with 1889 views | ITFCBlues |
| The dream is turning into a nightmare on 08:21 - Sep 1 by Mullet |
Dozzell, Huws and Bishop are irrelevant, especially in the eyes of fans? I can see Rowe and Adeyemi being labelled that way, but I'm sorry when people are citing Gleeson and Carayol as well as loanees who were cover for injured players and players who got injured like Garner, it's just further embedding the point they are being a little bit dishonest with the reality.
Again, these are all choices Hurst has made, and again it's taken the club 2-3 months to get into this position whatever people think of it, because he has made the decisions he has. The idea that either all or none were forced/inevitable/separate from one another is laughable. Let alone from the moment he stepped in the door, which seems to be lost on certain people conveniently.
Vic has had it right and a few others. It's quite clear that he has seen things along the way and this has led to so many changes - the case of Ward and Sears being a good one. Some players clearly don't fit into his philosophy as much as he anticipated.
We're talking about a manager who doesn't like big squads and yet has amassed one and dismantled it in one window, not the usual 2 or 3 he takes. That makes me ask questions of Evans not the squad.
I'm not in favour of keeping players but all three were likely to be mainstays in fans' eyes long after Hurst got here in the case of Garner who we were going to keep until the last day, Webster made his own move, Waghorn was the only one expected to be sold.
The idea Hurst was going to, or needed to buy and sell so much just wasn't talked about. People pretending it always was, are just making the problem worse. What we really need, is a win Sunday and these players he brought to perform to a higher standard. |
All of those players who were listed further up this thread were all out of contract. They were all let go at the end of the season or the loan deals expired. That was around 7-8 players all of which would need replacing. They were all released prior to PH joining the club. I presume that he could’ve at least attempted to offer some of these new contracts. But who would you of kept? I know it’s slightly off of the point you’re making - but just curious to know your thoughts. |  |
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| The dream is turning into a nightmare on 08:51 - Sep 1 with 1889 views | tiptreeblue |
| The dream is turning into a nightmare on 08:36 - Sep 1 by Mullet |
I wasn't moaning, not even in the slightest about the players or Hurst. I've attended the majority of games this season and put plenty of miles in already. Why do I or anyone else need to justify that any way as soon as any debate about Hurst comes up?
I'm not happy about what I've seen in some regards, nor being bottom but my support for the team isn't something the likes of you can question.
Instead of taking personal pops and getting them wrong, why not actually read what's written and not twist it? This is exactly my point, people like you make personal snide remarks and try to do people down then get all uppity.
The hypocrisy is astounding. |
Yes you were moaning, you moaned about Hurst selling three people you don`t think he should have, also you were moaning about how many people he has brought in. They are moans. why are you so pretentious ?. i`m so so sorry if i have hurt your pride you silly little man. now that is making a personal snidey comment | | | |
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| The dream is turning into a nightmare on 08:56 - Sep 1 with 1877 views | Mullet |
| The dream is turning into a nightmare on 08:51 - Sep 1 by ITFCBlues |
All of those players who were listed further up this thread were all out of contract. They were all let go at the end of the season or the loan deals expired. That was around 7-8 players all of which would need replacing. They were all released prior to PH joining the club. I presume that he could’ve at least attempted to offer some of these new contracts. But who would you of kept? I know it’s slightly off of the point you’re making - but just curious to know your thoughts. |
Personally, apart from McG I don't think I'd have kept many - but McG is the last Hurst type player anyway.
I'd argue that "need" is debatable given as said CCV, Gleeson and Carayol all covered for injuries to players some of whom we then sold, the others listed were nowhere near getting back into the side long term.
The idea Hurst needed to all of this in one window rather than felt it was better to can only be judged at the end of the season. People justifying/calling it a failure now are premature. | |
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| The dream is turning into a nightmare on 08:57 - Sep 1 with 1870 views | Mullet |
| The dream is turning into a nightmare on 08:51 - Sep 1 by tiptreeblue |
Yes you were moaning, you moaned about Hurst selling three people you don`t think he should have, also you were moaning about how many people he has brought in. They are moans. why are you so pretentious ?. i`m so so sorry if i have hurt your pride you silly little man. now that is making a personal snidey comment |
I suggest you prove that and back it up, because it's more nonsense isn't it? | |
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| The dream is turning into a nightmare on 09:05 - Sep 1 with 1852 views | tiptreeblue |
| The dream is turning into a nightmare on 08:57 - Sep 1 by Mullet |
I suggest you prove that and back it up, because it's more nonsense isn't it? |
So, saying he was wrong to sell players you think he should keep isn`t moaning? really, what planet are you from for god sake? . i am now going out but, i suppose you will have some fanciful answer for me. so i presume we will resume this later xx | | | |
| The dream is turning into a nightmare on 09:11 - Sep 1 with 1846 views | Superfrans |
| The dream is turning into a nightmare on 08:21 - Sep 1 by Mullet |
Dozzell, Huws and Bishop are irrelevant, especially in the eyes of fans? I can see Rowe and Adeyemi being labelled that way, but I'm sorry when people are citing Gleeson and Carayol as well as loanees who were cover for injured players and players who got injured like Garner, it's just further embedding the point they are being a little bit dishonest with the reality.
Again, these are all choices Hurst has made, and again it's taken the club 2-3 months to get into this position whatever people think of it, because he has made the decisions he has. The idea that either all or none were forced/inevitable/separate from one another is laughable. Let alone from the moment he stepped in the door, which seems to be lost on certain people conveniently.
Vic has had it right and a few others. It's quite clear that he has seen things along the way and this has led to so many changes - the case of Ward and Sears being a good one. Some players clearly don't fit into his philosophy as much as he anticipated.
We're talking about a manager who doesn't like big squads and yet has amassed one and dismantled it in one window, not the usual 2 or 3 he takes. That makes me ask questions of Evans not the squad.
I'm not in favour of keeping players but all three were likely to be mainstays in fans' eyes long after Hurst got here in the case of Garner who we were going to keep until the last day, Webster made his own move, Waghorn was the only one expected to be sold.
The idea Hurst was going to, or needed to buy and sell so much just wasn't talked about. People pretending it always was, are just making the problem worse. What we really need, is a win Sunday and these players he brought to perform to a higher standard. |
Sorry, but you’re getting muddled.
To be clear. No players are irrelevant in the round.
But when we are talking about change/rebuilding, and whether it was required, yes of course Huws, Bishop and Dozzell are irrelevant to this argument. They didn’t play last season, any of them. They are also not fit enough to play still - of them, only Huws is likely to be playing any time soon.
This is also why Gleeson, Carayol, Connolly, Celina etc ARE all relevant. Because they did play last season and this season can’t. Again - this is relative to the argument about whether Hurst forced a rebuilding (your contention) or whether he had to rebuild because of the situation he inherited and which unfolded through the close season (my contention).
The narrative that Hurst came in and could have been fielding the same players we had last season is pure fantasy.
>> 7/8/9 players left at the end of last season, either on loan or released. These decisions were made before Hurst joined the club.
>> three key players decided they wanted to leave - Hurst could have stopped them, but how motivated would they have been? Did. We really have the option to stand in their way, Webster and Waghorn to double their wages, Garner to go back to the north west?
The only players Hurst has chosen to ship out are the youngsters, out on loan to give them more experience. Could he have kept them all and built the team around them? Yes, he could.
Mick gave them lots of minutes last season, but in a stable squad, with a stable system - we have neither right now.
In his programme notes for Villa last season, Klug said we had playing too many young players too early. Hurst has reached the same conclusion.
Hurst has said he didn’t expect to have to make so many changes when he came in. he has had to adjust to changing circumstances throughout the summer. | |
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| The dream is turning into a nightmare on 09:52 - Sep 1 with 1818 views | Bobbychase |
It’s september 1st. The football is a million miles better than under Mick (and I was a Mick supporter).
Hurst is our manager. This is his squad. Get behind it |  |
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| The dream is turning into a nightmare on 11:45 - Sep 1 with 1772 views | pointofblue |
| The dream is turning into a nightmare on 07:57 - Sep 1 by BlueAllOver |
Is the football much different?, keep seeing this time and time again,
yet the stats in the post below (don;t know how to embed) don't suggest a great shift in our play. This backs up my personal view of having seen games, we are not playing
out from the back, and not playing fast free flowing football as some would make out.
This isn't a criticism of PH, more an observation. Really hoping for a positive result tomorrow, the panic signings in the last week don't give the indication of a Manager whos been happy with his own recruitment, but again hopefully they will work out.
COYB!
by itfcjoe on 13:46 - Aug 28 with 618 views
I may be being harsh, and whilst I can see what Hurst is trying to do, the football isn't particularly good. It's better than Mick's but you look on whoscored.com
Goals - 22nd
Possession percentage - 16th
Pass Accuracy - 21st
Aerials won - 3rd (indicating lots of long balls by both sides)
Shots on Target per game - 24th
Long balls per game - 3rd
Short passes per game - 18th
Last season we averaged 85 long balls a a game, this season it is 83. Last season we averaged 278 short passes per game, this year it is 274.
Stats can obviously show what you want them to at times, but these seem fairly clear. |
I know this sounds silly but I’d love to have a first half/second half split of those statistics as I think things would look brighter taking only the first 45 minutes into account. I feel it’s in the first halves of matches this season where we’re seeing Hurst’s influence and his attempt to introduce his own brand of football; in the second half of every game so far, worryingly, we’ve dropped off a returned to type - more long balls, playing the percentages, dropping the pass and move. I think the question Hurst needs to find an answer to is why is this happening? Is it due to fitness? Is he being out thought tactically at half time? Do we not have the quality of players to keep the style going for 90 minutes? If we’ve played well but are, at best, drawing tomorrow at half time I won’t be hopeful of victory.
Going back to the OP and I’m still clinging on to the hope that Hurst believes he’ll be able to get Huws, at the very least, back to fitness and that means we’ll have an experienced three in midfield of Skuse, Huws and Nolan meaning Nydam won’t get much of chance anyway and it makes more sense to give him first team football elsewhere with another club’s youngsters in reserve. Same with Woolfenden in defence as Chambers and Nsiala will presumably be our first choice pairing (though Chambers looks a mess on the left side). Up front hindsight is a wonderful thing, and as time goes on you have to wonder what the point of signing both Harrison and Jackson was, especially as they’re understandably struggling to adapt. But at the time I’m not sure how confident we were of signing Walters? I think we’ve tripped up there but not every transfer is a success and we’ll have to deal with that and, as they adapt, they may still be astute signings.
I am concerned about a lack of game time for Downes and would love to see him out there tomorrow instead of one of the loaners should Skuse not be fit. He would have benefited from a loan if he’s not going to play but I guess Hurst didn’t want to leave us light in central midfield considering the current injuries. | |
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| The dream is turning into a nightmare on 12:07 - Sep 1 with 1753 views | bluejacko |
Bloody hell reading some of the comments on here some people really need to call the Samaritans!
Get a grip stop whinging and actually give the NEW team and manager a chance. | | | |
| The dream is turning into a nightmare on 12:29 - Sep 1 with 1741 views | bluehook |
| The dream is turning into a nightmare on 20:53 - Aug 31 by tiptreeblue |
Why can`t you grasp the fact that all three wanted to leave. what is holding you back from seeing this? |
He’s either gormless or crying out for attention. |  | | |
| The dream is turning into a nightmare on 12:33 - Sep 1 with 1739 views | jas0999 |
I’m disappointed with the six loans, particularly as some of those don’t look as good as our youngsters (yet). But we mustn’t write PH off yet, nor compare him to PJ, who remains in my opinion one of the worst managers in our history.
A win against Norwich could change everything. In terms of confidence and belief. Yet, if we lose again or even fail to win, it could prove very difficult to get that all important first victory. | | | |
| The dream is turning into a nightmare on 13:00 - Sep 1 with 1705 views | Mullet |
| The dream is turning into a nightmare on 09:11 - Sep 1 by Superfrans |
Sorry, but you’re getting muddled.
To be clear. No players are irrelevant in the round.
But when we are talking about change/rebuilding, and whether it was required, yes of course Huws, Bishop and Dozzell are irrelevant to this argument. They didn’t play last season, any of them. They are also not fit enough to play still - of them, only Huws is likely to be playing any time soon.
This is also why Gleeson, Carayol, Connolly, Celina etc ARE all relevant. Because they did play last season and this season can’t. Again - this is relative to the argument about whether Hurst forced a rebuilding (your contention) or whether he had to rebuild because of the situation he inherited and which unfolded through the close season (my contention).
The narrative that Hurst came in and could have been fielding the same players we had last season is pure fantasy.
>> 7/8/9 players left at the end of last season, either on loan or released. These decisions were made before Hurst joined the club.
>> three key players decided they wanted to leave - Hurst could have stopped them, but how motivated would they have been? Did. We really have the option to stand in their way, Webster and Waghorn to double their wages, Garner to go back to the north west?
The only players Hurst has chosen to ship out are the youngsters, out on loan to give them more experience. Could he have kept them all and built the team around them? Yes, he could.
Mick gave them lots of minutes last season, but in a stable squad, with a stable system - we have neither right now.
In his programme notes for Villa last season, Klug said we had playing too many young players too early. Hurst has reached the same conclusion.
Hurst has said he didn’t expect to have to make so many changes when he came in. he has had to adjust to changing circumstances throughout the summer. |
But they had clearly been forgotten about here until I pointed them out, your (contention) is also mine which I've already explained. You're just crediting me with one half and claiming the other, despite what I've said.
The concept of a "rebuild" was never envisaged when he joined, the events since have seen that happen because he's opted to make certain choices and react to certain things. The general consensus was a few in based on the sale of a couple of players this window, not double figures in.
The idea Hurst hasn't chosen to ship out players, which yourself have asked should we have kept here and kept unhappy is a complete contradiction. Again this assumption that i'm being critical rather than factual because a few types pop up again to say as much, isn't really my fault.
Given I've praised the balls he's shown several times, it's pretty laughable to see this turned into some sort of binary witch hunt on the say so of people who won't accept it honesty.
As for the point about the youths, yet again we're talking about the expectations people had thanks to ME's interview, what we saw last season and some concerned that in the cases of Nydam, Dozzell and maybe Morris/Woolfenden they could have contributed here with Downes. Especially after featuring already, and hopes about Huws and Bishop etc. | |
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| The dream is turning into a nightmare on 13:00 - Sep 1 with 1701 views | Mullet |
| The dream is turning into a nightmare on 12:29 - Sep 1 by bluehook |
He’s either gormless or crying out for attention. |
Or can read. | |
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