| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 10:04 - Jul 29 with 3044 views | Libero |
| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 09:59 - Jul 29 by Herbivore |
I don't agree that goals per game is the fairest way to look at it, given what else he brings to the side. There is no doubt our attacking play with him pre-injury than without him and post-injury. But using your measure, all of Didz's goals that season (8 in all competitions, 6 in the league) came before the injury caused by Loovens. Not far off a goal every other game in the league and exactly one in two across all comps. So thinking that without that injury we might have done better isn't exactly hugely wishful thinking on my part, he was playing well generally and was scoring goals at a decent rate to boot.
You can keep saying you rate Didz but you kind of undermine that expressed view by talking him down at every opportunity. You've made yourself look a little silly in doing so on this thread when it's pretty evident Didz had made a big contribution to our useful start to the season before Loovens assaulted him and we missed him thereafter. |
It's probably a goals ratio for minutes on pitch really, as sometimes he would only come on for 10/20 minutes or so!
I don't think I talk him down at all, I do however think a large portion of our support reaaaaally talk him up. Incredibly naturally gifted but aside from the little spell we're discussing he had one purple patch where he really consistently produced.
I've not made myself look silly at all, I've just said that what you're saying is a big if and that ultimately we could model it and see what might have been, but in reality we will never know.
Not disagreeing that it was the best he'd looked in years though!
Sincerely looked sharp and fit as well as netting a few! |  | |  |
| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 10:07 - Jul 29 with 3037 views | Steve_M |
| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 09:39 - Jul 29 by Herbivore |
We were good at home pre-Christmas, the odd game aside. We scored plenty and played with real pace and intent going forward. We didn't maintain it and injuries played a part in that, losing Garner for a chunk of time was also a blow as he gave us a different option up top. |
It was 19 goals in eight matches up to Reading in December 2017, two in the next eight. Injuries, loss of belief, increasing negativity - it was a weird season. |  |
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| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 10:07 - Jul 29 with 3033 views | Herbivore |
| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 10:04 - Jul 29 by Libero |
It's probably a goals ratio for minutes on pitch really, as sometimes he would only come on for 10/20 minutes or so!
I don't think I talk him down at all, I do however think a large portion of our support reaaaaally talk him up. Incredibly naturally gifted but aside from the little spell we're discussing he had one purple patch where he really consistently produced.
I've not made myself look silly at all, I've just said that what you're saying is a big if and that ultimately we could model it and see what might have been, but in reality we will never know.
Not disagreeing that it was the best he'd looked in years though!
Sincerely looked sharp and fit as well as netting a few! |
Fair dos. |  |
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| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 10:10 - Jul 29 with 3027 views | Herbivore |
| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 10:07 - Jul 29 by Steve_M |
It was 19 goals in eight matches up to Reading in December 2017, two in the next eight. Injuries, loss of belief, increasing negativity - it was a weird season. |
As late as February I seem to remember we were only just outside the play offs, and yet there was so much negativity around. Things had gone stale, the season before was turgid, but I'd hoped a good start might win people back over. Sadly a couple of poor results and the daggers were out again and the air of negativity about the place remained. I do feel that hampered us that season, though not as much as injuries did (again). | |
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| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 10:15 - Jul 29 with 3014 views | TrumptonBlue |
McGoldrick only missed 4 games after the Loovens attack. He was back before Christmas but played his last game at Norwich in February. All of his goals that season came before Loovens, however. He had 6 in 14 starts + 1 sub at that point. |  | | |
| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 10:19 - Jul 29 with 3002 views | Libero |
| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 10:15 - Jul 29 by TrumptonBlue |
McGoldrick only missed 4 games after the Loovens attack. He was back before Christmas but played his last game at Norwich in February. All of his goals that season came before Loovens, however. He had 6 in 14 starts + 1 sub at that point. |
Indeed, I do think it's worth highlighting just how fit and sharp he was looking before that tackle though, he didn't have the same zip and vigour upon his return. | | | |
| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 10:21 - Jul 29 with 2998 views | TrumptonBlue |
The stat I always remember from that time was that we failed to score in the first half of a home game for five months - from Reading in December to Middlesbrough on the last day. Maybe we didn't appreciate how lucky we were, but everyone was incredibly bored with it all. I don't condone any abuse McCarthy received, nor any he gave out, but a change felt inevitable somehow. | | | |
| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 10:24 - Jul 29 with 2990 views | Libero |
| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 10:21 - Jul 29 by TrumptonBlue |
The stat I always remember from that time was that we failed to score in the first half of a home game for five months - from Reading in December to Middlesbrough on the last day. Maybe we didn't appreciate how lucky we were, but everyone was incredibly bored with it all. I don't condone any abuse McCarthy received, nor any he gave out, but a change felt inevitable somehow. |
I do agree, It was such a drag to witness at times. I was a fan of McCarthy but at times found him way too pragmatic, to the point of negative, however despite all the talk of "entertainment" football is a results business and for the resources that Mick was working with he achieved outstanding results.
I touched on it earlier but when you consider that rebuild he did that was echoed in by Waghorn and Garner and maybe compare it to the rebuild that Royle attempted that was spearheaded by Parkin and Forster you will get the measure for the level of miracle he was pulling off, year-in-year-out. [Post edited 29 Jul 2020 10:25]
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| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 10:43 - Jul 29 with 2959 views | homer_123 |
| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 09:42 - Jul 29 by Jambo |
It all got very awful at the end. I remember casually asking someone who did they think we would get who was a) better than MM and b) had the same level of credibility.
I was told that we are Ipswich Town and that we can get anyone we bloody like....
Turns out we did. And he was shiote.
Like HarryfromBath said - Hurst took a baseball bat to an excellent team and we should not forget that. |
Hurst was allowed to decimate a more than half decent squad....who allowed that to happen? |  |
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| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 11:34 - Jul 29 with 2924 views | PhilTWTD |
| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 09:05 - Jul 29 by Libero |
Mick McCarthy was a class act, huge f*ck you to every "supporter" that went too far, even bigger LOL at the one's who to this day can't accept that Mick was a class act and they were wrong. |
I don't think MM leaving was wrong, whatever's happened since. How many season ticket holders would we have had the following season? How long might it taken for them to come back? Whether MM was popular with the players, which he evidently was, he'd become box office poison.
It wasn't about position in the league - and clearly we punched above our weight on a position to wage bill basis - or ultimately about style of football but about the attitude shown to supporters (and some of us in the media for that matter, if he'd have stayed on much longer I think I'd have been looking for something else to do).
At the same time, some of the abuse was certainly over the top, particularly at Brentford when he'd already said he was going (which I actually think he knew would be the case at the start of the season). There was no need for people to stick the boot in. |  | | |
| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 11:36 - Jul 29 with 2902 views | PJH |
| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 10:10 - Jul 29 by Herbivore |
As late as February I seem to remember we were only just outside the play offs, and yet there was so much negativity around. Things had gone stale, the season before was turgid, but I'd hoped a good start might win people back over. Sadly a couple of poor results and the daggers were out again and the air of negativity about the place remained. I do feel that hampered us that season, though not as much as injuries did (again). |
In consecutive away games from mid January until early March we drew at Bolton,won at Sunderland,drew in Norfolk,won at Preston and won at Sheff W.
During that time we drew one and lost two at home.
It would suggest that the players and certainly the manager were more comfortable playing away games-watching away games was also far better than the atmosphere being created at PR. |  | | |
| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 11:37 - Jul 29 with 2901 views | patrickswell |
| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 10:07 - Jul 29 by Steve_M |
It was 19 goals in eight matches up to Reading in December 2017, two in the next eight. Injuries, loss of belief, increasing negativity - it was a weird season. |
Unfortunately, by the new year, Bishop, Dozzell, Huws and Adeyemi were all out for the season. Downes had missed some football and was being sized up for the loan move to Luton. McGoldrick was only a couple of games away from his obligatory February-May sabbatical. By that point Celina and Waghorn had to create stuff out of nothing, becuase even when we brought Carayol in, he could only play for 45 minutes at a time.
But by then the narrative had changed to "He's playing Skuse and Hyam together on purpose!" |  | | |
| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 11:40 - Jul 29 with 2886 views | Libero |
| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 11:34 - Jul 29 by PhilTWTD |
I don't think MM leaving was wrong, whatever's happened since. How many season ticket holders would we have had the following season? How long might it taken for them to come back? Whether MM was popular with the players, which he evidently was, he'd become box office poison.
It wasn't about position in the league - and clearly we punched above our weight on a position to wage bill basis - or ultimately about style of football but about the attitude shown to supporters (and some of us in the media for that matter, if he'd have stayed on much longer I think I'd have been looking for something else to do).
At the same time, some of the abuse was certainly over the top, particularly at Brentford when he'd already said he was going (which I actually think he knew would be the case at the start of the season). There was no need for people to stick the boot in. |
It was undeniably the right time for us to part, I just question the role that a percentage of our "supporters" played in getting us to that point in time. | | | |
| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 11:44 - Jul 29 with 2874 views | patrickswell |
| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 11:36 - Jul 29 by PJH |
In consecutive away games from mid January until early March we drew at Bolton,won at Sunderland,drew in Norfolk,won at Preston and won at Sheff W.
During that time we drew one and lost two at home.
It would suggest that the players and certainly the manager were more comfortable playing away games-watching away games was also far better than the atmosphere being created at PR. |
And of course, that draw in Norfolk - for a myriad of reasons - was the moment where, whether you supported him or wanted him out, everyone knew the change had to be made.
In terms of feeling, attitude and achievement it summed up where we were.
Of course, we've only plumbed new depths since.... | | | |
| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 11:46 - Jul 29 with 2878 views | PhilTWTD |
| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 11:40 - Jul 29 by Libero |
It was undeniably the right time for us to part, I just question the role that a percentage of our "supporters" played in getting us to that point in time. |
But equally MM played a big part in the breakdown of the relationship. I think many fans - even many of those that sided with him on some matters - felt he was disrespectful and behaved in a manner not befitting a Town manager. | | | |
| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 12:03 - Jul 29 with 2836 views | Libero |
| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 11:46 - Jul 29 by PhilTWTD |
But equally MM played a big part in the breakdown of the relationship. I think many fans - even many of those that sided with him on some matters - felt he was disrespectful and behaved in a manner not befitting a Town manager. |
I disagree, he gave it large vs Norwich and received a disproportionate amount of stick as a result, ironically his response was to people already giving him a disproportionate amount of stick re:playing style.
We had plenty of over sensitive fans who felt exactly as you suggest, it was probably that incident inparticular that was beginning of the end. | | | |
| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 12:23 - Jul 29 with 2811 views | PhilTWTD |
| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 12:03 - Jul 29 by Libero |
I disagree, he gave it large vs Norwich and received a disproportionate amount of stick as a result, ironically his response was to people already giving him a disproportionate amount of stick re:playing style.
We had plenty of over sensitive fans who felt exactly as you suggest, it was probably that incident inparticular that was beginning of the end. |
He certainly couldn't remain manager for long after that, and actually I think he probably should have been sacked with hindsight and am surprised there wasn't more of a clamour. If it had been, say, Liverpool-Everton and the Everton boss had done that I'm sure he would have gone given the greater profile.
But that was pretty near the end so was among the final nails in the coffin, I think the die had been cast long before that with the way MM responded to fans' criticism.
There was never the need to hit back in the antagonistic manner he did. He was never able to take criticism and respond in a measured way, and from my perspective questions which weren't intended to be criticism were often taken as such. A manager can't just stick his fingers up to fans en masse - literally or metaphorically - however critical a section of the support might be. | | | |
| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 12:26 - Jul 29 with 2800 views | Libero |
| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 12:23 - Jul 29 by PhilTWTD |
He certainly couldn't remain manager for long after that, and actually I think he probably should have been sacked with hindsight and am surprised there wasn't more of a clamour. If it had been, say, Liverpool-Everton and the Everton boss had done that I'm sure he would have gone given the greater profile.
But that was pretty near the end so was among the final nails in the coffin, I think the die had been cast long before that with the way MM responded to fans' criticism.
There was never the need to hit back in the antagonistic manner he did. He was never able to take criticism and respond in a measured way, and from my perspective questions which weren't intended to be criticism were often taken as such. A manager can't just stick his fingers up to fans en masse - literally or metaphorically - however critical a section of the support might be. |
...he also didn't seem very nice to you in press conferences.
You should have sycophantically laughed at every other word he said like Brenner did. | | | |
| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 12:26 - Jul 29 with 2799 views | Garv |
| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 12:03 - Jul 29 by Libero |
I disagree, he gave it large vs Norwich and received a disproportionate amount of stick as a result, ironically his response was to people already giving him a disproportionate amount of stick re:playing style.
We had plenty of over sensitive fans who felt exactly as you suggest, it was probably that incident inparticular that was beginning of the end. |
The beginning of the end came long before that incident, don't you think?
The whole Celina thing at Burton was just another thing that indicated the breakdown in relations, and that was months previous. |  |
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| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 12:27 - Jul 29 with 2797 views | Libero |
| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 12:26 - Jul 29 by Garv |
The beginning of the end came long before that incident, don't you think?
The whole Celina thing at Burton was just another thing that indicated the breakdown in relations, and that was months previous. |
Personally I think it was all recoverable until the Norwich incident. | | | |
| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 12:31 - Jul 29 with 2794 views | PJH |
| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 11:46 - Jul 29 by PhilTWTD |
But equally MM played a big part in the breakdown of the relationship. I think many fans - even many of those that sided with him on some matters - felt he was disrespectful and behaved in a manner not befitting a Town manager. |
I agree that in the early stages of the breakdown in relationship's he could have gone about it in a different way and possibly patched up the split but he decided to go in a different direction and he certainly contributed to the widening of it.
However I remain and will for ever remain on the MM side of the MM v Idiots debate because the split was started by the idiots (during a 3-2 win at Wigan in my opinion)and carried on by the idiots.
MM's reaction in Norfolk probably did lose him some of the sympathetic backing that he had got but he did not lose me.
He reacted as a human being to abuse from people that he had, rightly in my opinion,lost all respect for. Whether a manager of a football club should react like that is open to debate but I think it was certainly an understandable human reaction. | | | |
| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 12:31 - Jul 29 with 2792 views | RegencyBlue |
MM was good at the job Evans wanted him to do, which was basically just to keep treading water in the Championship. The problem was doing that with the limited resources provided by Evans resulted in minimal entertainment, it was just bloody boring, with an obvious lack of ambition.
The fact he got all the stick was what surprised me. There is one constant in our relentless decline and that is our illustrious owner, but he gets away scot free again and again. The clubs lack of ambition is solely down to Evans but he successfully hides behind various things, one of them being whoever the manager is at the time. |  | | |
| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 12:32 - Jul 29 with 2792 views | Garv |
| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 12:27 - Jul 29 by Libero |
Personally I think it was all recoverable until the Norwich incident. |
Crikey. I respect the view but disagree hugely. I think we were long past it.
Winning there might have helped of course but Webster, Knudsen and Bart all decided to have mad moments and of course we conceded from an aimless punt downfield.
Sigh. | |
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| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 12:33 - Jul 29 with 2791 views | BlueBadger |
Breaking news: by BlueBadger 27 Jul 2020 20:16I have just secured a picture of Phil every time he posts a 'Mick McCarthy just did an interview' story on the front page.
https://i.ibb.co/zh00P0Q/liam.jpg
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| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 12:39 - Jul 29 with 2776 views | PhilTWTD |
| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 12:31 - Jul 29 by PJH |
I agree that in the early stages of the breakdown in relationship's he could have gone about it in a different way and possibly patched up the split but he decided to go in a different direction and he certainly contributed to the widening of it.
However I remain and will for ever remain on the MM side of the MM v Idiots debate because the split was started by the idiots (during a 3-2 win at Wigan in my opinion)and carried on by the idiots.
MM's reaction in Norfolk probably did lose him some of the sympathetic backing that he had got but he did not lose me.
He reacted as a human being to abuse from people that he had, rightly in my opinion,lost all respect for. Whether a manager of a football club should react like that is open to debate but I think it was certainly an understandable human reaction. |
I don't think it's as simple as MM v idiots. There were plenty of people who had no time for MM but who wouldn't have dreamt of being abusive towards him. Plenty of those fans stopped going either because of the football or because they had no time for MM as a person.
I'm not sure where the scism started, I'm not sure he was many people's idea of a Town manager when he came in but he was accepted initially as we were in such desperate trouble and he turned things around. | | | |
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