| So itfcjoe... 23:54 - Jun 23 with 21938 views | OriginalMarkyP |
What did PC say to Dobra that's so bad that he will definitely leave?
Dobra did actually say he wanted to come back and fight for a first team place. I'm assuming he said that after PC said whatever it was to him. |  |
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| So itfcjoe... on 13:53 - Jun 24 with 1780 views | Cheltenham_Blue |
| So itfcjoe... on 13:50 - Jun 24 by reusersfreekicks |
I think Joe has been balanced as opposed to being swept along by new manager euphoria. He gets misinterpreted all the time by people thinking all last season's players are rubbish with terrible attitudes |
Many of them are, and did.
New manager euphoria hasn't caused that, a large number of us were talking the same for the majority of Hursts reign and all of Lambert's. |  |
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| So itfcjoe... on 13:54 - Jun 24 with 1772 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| So itfcjoe... on 11:57 - Jun 24 by ITFC_96 |
This whole situation is just getting even more confusing. The club needs to make it clearer on who they are looking to keep and and who they are looking to sell. I'm sorry, but if everyone is put into the U23s the message seems to be that everyone is up for sale.
I don't buy any of this motivational tactic thing - sending everyone to the U23s team is not motivational, nor is it a good method to advertise them to potential buyers if they ARE for sale.
The current situation with Dobra as I see it is that the manager has told him to leave, then he claims in public that he wants to stay and play, and then the manager sends him to the U23s anyway. I see nothing motivational with mixed signals and I certainly wouldn't be looking to stay if that club is that keen on getting me to leave. [Post edited 24 Jun 2021 11:58]
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Alan Lee has said it's motivational, and he knows Cook well. Whether people think it will work or not is up for debate of course. I happen to think putting a player back in the u23s and saying "Prove yourself and you're back in the first team" certainly IS motivational. And if it isn't then the don't have the will and desire necessary anyway. |  |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| So itfcjoe... on 13:55 - Jun 24 with 1757 views | reusersfreekicks |
| So itfcjoe... on 13:50 - Jun 24 by The_Flashing_Smile |
No, I've extrapolated from what you've said "If it is the case he stays imagine it will be all down to Dyer."
Cook doesn't HAVE to listen to Dyer. And the final decision will still be down to him. Also, if young players leave, can we infer (from your logic) that these players weren't liked by Dyer?!
Dyer will advise, Cook will call the shots, and if Dobra (or anyone else) stays, it will be down to Cook not Dyer. You said Cook had made up his mind on Dobra and there was no going back. If Dobra stays then your info was wrong, simple as that. Phil's (and indeed Alan Lee's) versions make more sense. |
Pedanticism of the highest order - the manager will be advised/informed by whichever of his staff has closest contact with a player. That is obvious. Good stuff doubling down on Joe when he's already said he's had enough! |  | | |
| So itfcjoe... on 13:57 - Jun 24 with 1730 views | Cheltenham_Blue |
| So itfcjoe... on 13:42 - Jun 24 by itfcjoe |
That was a proper flounce, at least my self imposed exile only lasted one game until that waster Jewell was sacked!
Just finding having to explain myself over and over and still be told think something different is getting a bit much, better things to be doing. Although am currently sitting in van reading a book as little one sleeps so could be argued that isn’t the case! |
Joe, You don't need to explain yourself to anyone, but its clear that you are unhappy with Cook, what he has achieved so far and what has happened to the players. And thats fine.
a) its your opinion
b) If I was close to some players, which you seem to be, I would probably be upset for them too. And thats fine too.
But since Cook came in, its pretty obvious in most of your posts that you aren't keen, again, thats your opinion. But if we are talking opinions, people are going to disagree with you.
Thats it, there is nothing underhand or malicious, its just a difference of opinions, and thats what makes life interesting isn't it? [Post edited 24 Jun 2021 13:58]
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| So itfcjoe... on 13:57 - Jun 24 with 1729 views | reusersfreekicks |
| So itfcjoe... on 13:54 - Jun 24 by The_Flashing_Smile |
Alan Lee has said it's motivational, and he knows Cook well. Whether people think it will work or not is up for debate of course. I happen to think putting a player back in the u23s and saying "Prove yourself and you're back in the first team" certainly IS motivational. And if it isn't then the don't have the will and desire necessary anyway. |
Alan Lee THINKS it's motivational he can't know anything as he is no longer at the club.. | | | |
| So itfcjoe... on 13:57 - Jun 24 with 1726 views | BloomBlue |
| So itfcjoe... on 11:57 - Jun 24 by ITFC_96 |
This whole situation is just getting even more confusing. The club needs to make it clearer on who they are looking to keep and and who they are looking to sell. I'm sorry, but if everyone is put into the U23s the message seems to be that everyone is up for sale.
I don't buy any of this motivational tactic thing - sending everyone to the U23s team is not motivational, nor is it a good method to advertise them to potential buyers if they ARE for sale.
The current situation with Dobra as I see it is that the manager has told him to leave, then he claims in public that he wants to stay and play, and then the manager sends him to the U23s anyway. I see nothing motivational with mixed signals and I certainly wouldn't be looking to stay if that club is that keen on getting me to leave. [Post edited 24 Jun 2021 11:58]
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I do find it funny last season PL dropped some youngsters from the team photo session and this site went into meltdown about PL's poor man-management and you'll never motivate players taking that approach.
PC drops them to the U23's and for many it's a masterstroke of good man-management, its the kick up the backside they need
Horses for courses I guess |  | | |
| So itfcjoe... on 13:58 - Jun 24 with 1710 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| So itfcjoe... on 12:52 - Jun 24 by longtimefan |
Personally I don’t see it as anti cook. Appears to me more that others seem to have an agenda for some strange reason. |
Why would anyone have an agenda against Joe?
I just want to support my team and give a new manager a chance. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| So itfcjoe... on 14:01 - Jun 24 with 1690 views | ITFC_96 |
| So itfcjoe... on 13:54 - Jun 24 by The_Flashing_Smile |
Alan Lee has said it's motivational, and he knows Cook well. Whether people think it will work or not is up for debate of course. I happen to think putting a player back in the u23s and saying "Prove yourself and you're back in the first team" certainly IS motivational. And if it isn't then the don't have the will and desire necessary anyway. |
Yeah, no... Putting a player in the U23s is very, very rarely a motivational move. Would struggle to find a single time where dumping players in the U23s when there is still a NEED and space for them in the first team has been anything but a form of punishment and (potentially) to embarrass them. It is absolving himself of blame for the failure at the end of the season. Also reeks of Paul Lambert's style last year with the youngsters not getting their photos taken and being sent home as some form of "motivation". It is bad and reactionary man management, I'm sorry. There is no other way around it. [Post edited 24 Jun 2021 14:02]
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| So itfcjoe... on 14:01 - Jun 24 with 1689 views | reusersfreekicks |
| So itfcjoe... on 13:57 - Jun 24 by BloomBlue |
I do find it funny last season PL dropped some youngsters from the team photo session and this site went into meltdown about PL's poor man-management and you'll never motivate players taking that approach.
PC drops them to the U23's and for many it's a masterstroke of good man-management, its the kick up the backside they need
Horses for courses I guess |
Yep people get swept along unblinkingly don't they | | | |
| So itfcjoe... on 14:02 - Jun 24 with 1678 views | Vic |
| So itfcjoe... on 13:11 - Jun 24 by MrTown |
Don’t leave the forum, good poster who knows his football. Don’t agree with everything you say, but I do think you often make good points.
Sometimes put some good inside info on here, sometimes you get things wrong.
Would be a shame to see you leave the forum though, overall a really good poster. |
It does seem that because Joe takes a middle ground position that it’s become open season for a group of posters to pile in on him. The guy has more links into the club than most do (and from what I can see most of those piling in on him have NO inside contacts) and yet his comments and opinions are dismissed by this group.
I remember when Cook first started to make some serious negative comments about some of the team, and then it came out the way he had spoken to the players I didn’t believe it. Joe stood by his story and has since been proven correct so I’ve had to accept that it’s happened.
Do I think it’s great man management? No I don’t! I think it’s really poor. What I still don’t know, and I don’t think any of us know is how he said it and what his intent was. Alan Lee reckons it’s a bit of motivation - I hope he’s right. But it’s still not a tactic I’d personally used - it’s too open to being misunderstood.
But do I think Cook is the right man for the job? Yes I do and I do think he, MA and the other guys will get things sorted. So I’m not anti Cook, any more than Joe is. Doesn’t mean I have to agree with the way he’s gone about his business though.
Anyway, what I really want to say is that I’m finding the criticism of Joe, a long term, well respected poster really tiresome. If he dropped off for a while I wouldn’t be surprised - sadly it will just leave this place less balanced and ever more dominated by the ill informed.
I can’t help but wonder if Phil still enjoys the board he created! [Post edited 24 Jun 2021 14:19]
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| So itfcjoe... on 14:03 - Jun 24 with 1663 views | Cheltenham_Blue |
| So itfcjoe... on 14:02 - Jun 24 by Vic |
It does seem that because Joe takes a middle ground position that it’s become open season for a group of posters to pile in on him. The guy has more links into the club than most do (and from what I can see most of those piling in on him have NO inside contacts) and yet his comments and opinions are dismissed by this group.
I remember when Cook first started to make some serious negative comments about some of the team, and then it came out the way he had spoken to the players I didn’t believe it. Joe stood by his story and has since been proven correct so I’ve had to accept that it’s happened.
Do I think it’s great man management? No I don’t! I think it’s really poor. What I still don’t know, and I don’t think any of us know is how he said it and what his intent was. Alan Lee reckons it’s a bit of motivation - I hope he’s right. But it’s still not a tactic I’d personally used - it’s too open to being misunderstood.
But do I think Cook is the right man for the job? Yes I do and I do think he, MA and the other guys will get things sorted. So I’m not anti Cook, any more than Joe is. Doesn’t mean I have to agree with the way he’s gone about his business though.
Anyway, what I really want to say is that I’m finding the criticism of Joe, a long term, well respected poster really tiresome. If he dropped off for a while I wouldn’t be surprised - sadly it will just leave this place less balanced and ever more dominated by the ill informed.
I can’t help but wonder if Phil still enjoys the board he created! [Post edited 24 Jun 2021 14:19]
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It's been much worse than this. | |
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| So itfcjoe... on 14:04 - Jun 24 with 1651 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| So itfcjoe... on 13:20 - Jun 24 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
Second best itfcjoe flounce since season ticket-gate…
On a serious note I didn’t read any of that as anti-Cook, in fact I noted the other day you were happy to acknowledge you may have gone a bit strong on that a month or so back and your position seemed quite reasonable. But for some we are in the honeymoon stage where Cook is the messiah so questioning any little thing that is happening currently means you want him out and think all the players we had last season were brilliant, or something. It’s not like the same thing happened with the last manager of course |
Once again you look at things in black and white. No-one thinks Cook is the messiah, they just want him given a fair chance.
When Joe comes out with statements like "If Dobra stays it will be all down to Dyer" then people are quite right to question that. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| So itfcjoe... on 14:04 - Jun 24 with 1649 views | reusersfreekicks |
| So itfcjoe... on 14:02 - Jun 24 by Vic |
It does seem that because Joe takes a middle ground position that it’s become open season for a group of posters to pile in on him. The guy has more links into the club than most do (and from what I can see most of those piling in on him have NO inside contacts) and yet his comments and opinions are dismissed by this group.
I remember when Cook first started to make some serious negative comments about some of the team, and then it came out the way he had spoken to the players I didn’t believe it. Joe stood by his story and has since been proven correct so I’ve had to accept that it’s happened.
Do I think it’s great man management? No I don’t! I think it’s really poor. What I still don’t know, and I don’t think any of us know is how he said it and what his intent was. Alan Lee reckons it’s a bit of motivation - I hope he’s right. But it’s still not a tactic I’d personally used - it’s too open to being misunderstood.
But do I think Cook is the right man for the job? Yes I do and I do think he, MA and the other guys will get things sorted. So I’m not anti Cook, any more than Joe is. Doesn’t mean I have to agree with the way he’s gone about his business though.
Anyway, what I really want to say is that I’m finding the criticism of Joe, a long term, well respected poster really tiresome. If he dropped off for a while I wouldn’t be surprised - sadly it will just leave this place less balanced and ever more dominated by the ill informed.
I can’t help but wonder if Phil still enjoys the board he created! [Post edited 24 Jun 2021 14:19]
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Brilliant | | | |
| So itfcjoe... on 14:05 - Jun 24 with 1645 views | clive_baker |
| So itfcjoe... on 13:57 - Jun 24 by Cheltenham_Blue |
Joe, You don't need to explain yourself to anyone, but its clear that you are unhappy with Cook, what he has achieved so far and what has happened to the players. And thats fine.
a) its your opinion
b) If I was close to some players, which you seem to be, I would probably be upset for them too. And thats fine too.
But since Cook came in, its pretty obvious in most of your posts that you aren't keen, again, thats your opinion. But if we are talking opinions, people are going to disagree with you.
Thats it, there is nothing underhand or malicious, its just a difference of opinions, and thats what makes life interesting isn't it? [Post edited 24 Jun 2021 13:58]
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I think that's all perfectly fair, reasonable and balanced.
We can all have our own opinions on Cook, how he's going about it, who he's shifted or shifting, who he's signed or signing etc. My view is that the club needed a proper shake up, to awaken it from a gradual demise that had set in over a very long time under Evans. It seems to me that the new owners are serious about getting the 'structure' right off the pitch, qualified people into the right roles, and resetting a culture of acceptance and mediocrity. None of that has come a day too soon for me.
On the field, I don't believe all of our players became sh1t overnight, I genuinely don't think that's true, and the very fact that our few better ones are more likely to earn moves up a division is testament to that. Equally, Cook needed to show he means business, he was probably embarrassed with what his name was associated with last season and won't stand for it.
Ultimately he's going to be judged on results, as all managers are. I wasn't impressed with what I saw for his 16 games last season, when we still very much had something to play for. However it only seems fair to give him the courtesy of a full window and pre season, and letting him stamp his mark on the side. Until then we really have to give him the benefit of the doubt IMO. |  |
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| So itfcjoe... on 14:10 - Jun 24 with 1588 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| So itfcjoe... on 13:55 - Jun 24 by reusersfreekicks |
Pedanticism of the highest order - the manager will be advised/informed by whichever of his staff has closest contact with a player. That is obvious. Good stuff doubling down on Joe when he's already said he's had enough! |
I hadn't even read that when I posted what I did, and I certainly don't want Joe to leave.
It's not pedantic - I've literally repeated what he posted. And coming on the back of lots of other things Joe's posted it builds up a picture. I think I've been fair on Joe and I respect his views; mine on him are only based on what he's been saying, nothing else.
On a side note, no-one gives a sh!t when I say I've had enough. Then it's "stop playing the victim Dollers!" | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| So itfcjoe... on 14:11 - Jun 24 with 1583 views | OriginalMarkyP |
| So itfcjoe... on 13:17 - Jun 24 by itfcjoe |
I’m not quitting and stomping off, but just finding it exasperating at the moment - even in response to that I’m told I frame everything as anti-Cook. Just no point me posting much, I hinted at weekend it was going this way but has continued to do so and just bored of it.
Have had a few nice messages about things, but ultimately just can’t be @rsed with it on here at the moment |
I agree.
I think for a fair proportion of posters 'criticising' Cook, is 'Anti-Cook', and that just isn't the case.
I do find it slightly disheartening that any devation from the party line of 'Cook's great, he knows 100% what he's doing, every decision he makes is correct, we're going to have a team full of superior players by August'...is roundly attacked in some kind or Orwellian show trial format, where the 'names' line up to denounce the comrade who has had the termierity to question ANYTHING with near manical fervour.
Do I like Paul Cook? Yes.
Do I want Paul Cook to succeed as our manager? Yes.
Do I think everything he does is right? No.
Do I dislike some of the things he's done? Yes.
Do I worry about certain things I personally think he has got wrong coming back to bite us? Yes.
Do I think he has got some stuff bang on? Yes.
I really find the slamming down on anything that certain posters disagree with as unpleasant and not really in the spirit of a messageboard.
It gets to the point where people jump on any statement you make and try and frame it to fit their portrayal of you as a 'Bed Wetter', 'Panicer', 'Budgie', 'Enemy of the State'.
So I totally get where you're coming from. | |
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| So itfcjoe... on 14:14 - Jun 24 with 1542 views | ITFC_96 |
| So itfcjoe... on 14:05 - Jun 24 by clive_baker |
I think that's all perfectly fair, reasonable and balanced.
We can all have our own opinions on Cook, how he's going about it, who he's shifted or shifting, who he's signed or signing etc. My view is that the club needed a proper shake up, to awaken it from a gradual demise that had set in over a very long time under Evans. It seems to me that the new owners are serious about getting the 'structure' right off the pitch, qualified people into the right roles, and resetting a culture of acceptance and mediocrity. None of that has come a day too soon for me.
On the field, I don't believe all of our players became sh1t overnight, I genuinely don't think that's true, and the very fact that our few better ones are more likely to earn moves up a division is testament to that. Equally, Cook needed to show he means business, he was probably embarrassed with what his name was associated with last season and won't stand for it.
Ultimately he's going to be judged on results, as all managers are. I wasn't impressed with what I saw for his 16 games last season, when we still very much had something to play for. However it only seems fair to give him the courtesy of a full window and pre season, and letting him stamp his mark on the side. Until then we really have to give him the benefit of the doubt IMO. |
Though it would be much easier to give him the benefit of the doubt if he hadn't started blaming the players two games into his tenure, wouldn't it?
Think some people are also in over their heads if they believe that the players were intentionally not playing well just to spite Cook. That doesn't even apply to most of the players who have been sent to the U23s.
I have never seen any reason to question the EFFORT of Downes, Dobra, Kenlock, Bishop, Lankester when they have played. Sending them to the U23s doesn't make sense in any respect. Keeping them in the first team picture helps us if they want to leave or we want to sell them, as well as if they want to stay... | | | |
| So itfcjoe... on 14:15 - Jun 24 with 1537 views | clive_baker |
| So itfcjoe... on 14:11 - Jun 24 by OriginalMarkyP |
I agree.
I think for a fair proportion of posters 'criticising' Cook, is 'Anti-Cook', and that just isn't the case.
I do find it slightly disheartening that any devation from the party line of 'Cook's great, he knows 100% what he's doing, every decision he makes is correct, we're going to have a team full of superior players by August'...is roundly attacked in some kind or Orwellian show trial format, where the 'names' line up to denounce the comrade who has had the termierity to question ANYTHING with near manical fervour.
Do I like Paul Cook? Yes.
Do I want Paul Cook to succeed as our manager? Yes.
Do I think everything he does is right? No.
Do I dislike some of the things he's done? Yes.
Do I worry about certain things I personally think he has got wrong coming back to bite us? Yes.
Do I think he has got some stuff bang on? Yes.
I really find the slamming down on anything that certain posters disagree with as unpleasant and not really in the spirit of a messageboard.
It gets to the point where people jump on any statement you make and try and frame it to fit their portrayal of you as a 'Bed Wetter', 'Panicer', 'Budgie', 'Enemy of the State'.
So I totally get where you're coming from. |
I'm not sure that's true to be honest. Loads of people on here, myself included, have questioned the approach Cook has taken, questioned the abruptness of it. I've had 1st hand accounts of some of the end of season chats with players and they're staggering frankly. I wouldn't say people aren't open to questioning things like that on here. Not sure what forum you read but I don't see many 'Cook's great, he knows 100% what he's doing, every decision he makes is correct' posts. Most are relatively balanced I would say. | |
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| So itfcjoe... on 14:18 - Jun 24 with 1511 views | clive_baker |
| So itfcjoe... on 14:14 - Jun 24 by ITFC_96 |
Though it would be much easier to give him the benefit of the doubt if he hadn't started blaming the players two games into his tenure, wouldn't it?
Think some people are also in over their heads if they believe that the players were intentionally not playing well just to spite Cook. That doesn't even apply to most of the players who have been sent to the U23s.
I have never seen any reason to question the EFFORT of Downes, Dobra, Kenlock, Bishop, Lankester when they have played. Sending them to the U23s doesn't make sense in any respect. Keeping them in the first team picture helps us if they want to leave or we want to sell them, as well as if they want to stay... |
He's sent them to the U23's because he doesn't want them. It really is as straight forward as that. | |
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| So itfcjoe... on 14:18 - Jun 24 with 1508 views | chrismakin |
| So itfcjoe... on 14:14 - Jun 24 by ITFC_96 |
Though it would be much easier to give him the benefit of the doubt if he hadn't started blaming the players two games into his tenure, wouldn't it?
Think some people are also in over their heads if they believe that the players were intentionally not playing well just to spite Cook. That doesn't even apply to most of the players who have been sent to the U23s.
I have never seen any reason to question the EFFORT of Downes, Dobra, Kenlock, Bishop, Lankester when they have played. Sending them to the U23s doesn't make sense in any respect. Keeping them in the first team picture helps us if they want to leave or we want to sell them, as well as if they want to stay... |
This is where it frustrates me, PC didn't question the players after just 2 games, he spent the first month or so praising them, arm round shoulder, protecting them, " These players need love" he said.
After a while he learnt what he had taken on and soon his mentality changed.... that doesn't happen unless there were certain things not right behind the scenes...... this is what gets ignored alot.
Regarding your last point, Downes, Bish, Lankester all linked with moves away, if already negotiating, no needs to have to them with first team training. |  |
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| So itfcjoe... on 14:30 - Jun 24 with 1434 views | OriginalMarkyP |
| So itfcjoe... on 14:15 - Jun 24 by clive_baker |
I'm not sure that's true to be honest. Loads of people on here, myself included, have questioned the approach Cook has taken, questioned the abruptness of it. I've had 1st hand accounts of some of the end of season chats with players and they're staggering frankly. I wouldn't say people aren't open to questioning things like that on here. Not sure what forum you read but I don't see many 'Cook's great, he knows 100% what he's doing, every decision he makes is correct' posts. Most are relatively balanced I would say. |
I'm not saying everyone does that, but there has been a very vocal group who have behaved in that way.
I've certainly been on the very blunt end of it. | |
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| So itfcjoe... on 14:31 - Jun 24 with 1425 views | chrismakin |
| So itfcjoe... on 14:30 - Jun 24 by OriginalMarkyP |
I'm not saying everyone does that, but there has been a very vocal group who have behaved in that way.
I've certainly been on the very blunt end of it. |
It's quite funny really OM, i'm one of the most avid PC fans, yet i've never had any issues with your posts, I find them quite balanced even when a bit panicky at times. | |
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| So itfcjoe... on 14:34 - Jun 24 with 1416 views | longtimefan |
| So itfcjoe... on 13:58 - Jun 24 by The_Flashing_Smile |
Why would anyone have an agenda against Joe?
I just want to support my team and give a new manager a chance. |
I have absolutely no idea but some people seem to be wilfully misrepresenting some of what he says, even after he’s provided clarifications. | | | |
| So itfcjoe... on 14:55 - Jun 24 with 1330 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| So itfcjoe... on 13:57 - Jun 24 by Cheltenham_Blue |
Joe, You don't need to explain yourself to anyone, but its clear that you are unhappy with Cook, what he has achieved so far and what has happened to the players. And thats fine.
a) its your opinion
b) If I was close to some players, which you seem to be, I would probably be upset for them too. And thats fine too.
But since Cook came in, its pretty obvious in most of your posts that you aren't keen, again, thats your opinion. But if we are talking opinions, people are going to disagree with you.
Thats it, there is nothing underhand or malicious, its just a difference of opinions, and thats what makes life interesting isn't it? [Post edited 24 Jun 2021 13:58]
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98% this!
(The 2% is for a couple of twonks who have tried to bait Joe) | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| So itfcjoe... on 14:56 - Jun 24 with 1319 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| So itfcjoe... on 13:57 - Jun 24 by reusersfreekicks |
Alan Lee THINKS it's motivational he can't know anything as he is no longer at the club.. |
But he's known Cook for years - since they were players together - so is a better person to judge than most (certainly most of us on here). | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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