| Shamima Begum 11:14 - Feb 22 with 5119 views | TalkingBlues |
Not coming back, again. |  |
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| Shamima Begum on 11:21 - Feb 22 with 2679 views | spiderman |
Bloody good job |  | | |
| Shamima Begum on 11:29 - Feb 22 with 2633 views | leitrimblue |
Could we not do the same thing with the nonce prince Andrew? |  | | |
| Shamima Begum on 11:32 - Feb 22 with 2630 views | Blueschev |
| Shamima Begum on 11:29 - Feb 22 by leitrimblue |
Could we not do the same thing with the nonce prince Andrew? |
If the same standards are applied as with Shamina Begum, surely Prince Andrew's victims knew exactly what they were doing and were not in fact victims at all? |  | | |
| Shamima Begum on 11:38 - Feb 22 with 2575 views | leitrimblue |
| Shamima Begum on 11:32 - Feb 22 by Blueschev |
If the same standards are applied as with Shamina Begum, surely Prince Andrew's victims knew exactly what they were doing and were not in fact victims at all? |
Perhaps it's all a long term plan to clear Andrew.
'All teenage girls trafficked around the world know exactly what they are doing as proved in the Shamima Begum case. Therefore poor Andy is clearly innocent and should be given back his fancy crown etc' | | | |
| Shamima Begum on 12:00 - Feb 22 with 2458 views | DJR |
I think her British citizenship should not have been revoked, whatever the legality of doing so.
If she has committed a crime, let her return and try her here.
Incidentally, had she (or anyone else) been responsible for a bombing which killed British citizens, I rather doubt that we would not seek to try her but instead leave it up to Bangladesh (which I think is her other citizenship) to do so.
And if the boot were on the other foot, would we be content if Bangladesh had stripped her of citizenship first? |  | | |
| Shamima Begum on 12:14 - Feb 22 with 2367 views | MattinLondon |
| Shamima Begum on 11:32 - Feb 22 by Blueschev |
If the same standards are applied as with Shamina Begum, surely Prince Andrew's victims knew exactly what they were doing and were not in fact victims at all? |
Nonce Andy’s victims seem all to be white and so they are allowed to be victims. |  | | |
| Shamima Begum on 12:16 - Feb 22 with 2343 views | chicoazul |
I feel very sorry for that poor young lady. |  |
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| Shamima Begum on 12:18 - Feb 22 with 2333 views | clive_baker |
| Shamima Begum on 12:00 - Feb 22 by DJR |
I think her British citizenship should not have been revoked, whatever the legality of doing so.
If she has committed a crime, let her return and try her here.
Incidentally, had she (or anyone else) been responsible for a bombing which killed British citizens, I rather doubt that we would not seek to try her but instead leave it up to Bangladesh (which I think is her other citizenship) to do so.
And if the boot were on the other foot, would we be content if Bangladesh had stripped her of citizenship first? |
It is a difficult one given she was so young, impressionable and arguably a victim of grooming, but that's a separate point to the one you make really. That said, she has to take some personal responsibility and by all accounts she was very active at trying to recruit others to join her, and had a reputation within the ISIS community as particularly 'hard lined'. Perhaps it makes me a bad person but to be perfectly honest I'm not going to lose any sleep over the fact she's not going to be allowed back into society in the UK.
Purely from a process point of view I do agree with you though, I'm not sure why it's appropriate to not bring her here given she's a British born British citizen. Instead it feels like we're happy to make her someone else's problem. |  |
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| Shamima Begum on 12:30 - Feb 22 with 2263 views | DJR |
| Shamima Begum on 12:18 - Feb 22 by clive_baker |
It is a difficult one given she was so young, impressionable and arguably a victim of grooming, but that's a separate point to the one you make really. That said, she has to take some personal responsibility and by all accounts she was very active at trying to recruit others to join her, and had a reputation within the ISIS community as particularly 'hard lined'. Perhaps it makes me a bad person but to be perfectly honest I'm not going to lose any sleep over the fact she's not going to be allowed back into society in the UK.
Purely from a process point of view I do agree with you though, I'm not sure why it's appropriate to not bring her here given she's a British born British citizen. Instead it feels like we're happy to make her someone else's problem. |
I think the first point you make would mitigate sentence, at the very least.
I don't think it makes you a bad person, not least because you didn't make the decision to deprive her of her citizenship, but it seems to me that the decision does play to the gallery.
Indeed, apart from that reason, I find it difficult to know why a young girl who was effectively trafficked is being held out as the scapegoat for all the evil that ISIS was involved in.
Maybe it's just because she is an easy target, and doesn't like male ISIS fighters have the option of carrying on their activities elsewhere in the world.
EDIT: Maybe there is a bit of misogyny going on here, coupled with racism and Islamophobia. After all, we didn't didn't deprive IRA terrorists of their British citizenship, despite the fact they were entitled to Irish citizenship, and leave it for the Irish government to sort out. [Post edited 22 Feb 2023 12:55]
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| Shamima Begum on 12:44 - Feb 22 with 2192 views | Zx1988 |
| Shamima Begum on 11:21 - Feb 22 by spiderman |
Bloody good job |
What is it about the openly-racist and Islamophobic policies of the Tory government that particularly appeals to you? |  |
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| Shamima Begum on 12:49 - Feb 22 with 2150 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Shamima Begum on 12:30 - Feb 22 by DJR |
I think the first point you make would mitigate sentence, at the very least.
I don't think it makes you a bad person, not least because you didn't make the decision to deprive her of her citizenship, but it seems to me that the decision does play to the gallery.
Indeed, apart from that reason, I find it difficult to know why a young girl who was effectively trafficked is being held out as the scapegoat for all the evil that ISIS was involved in.
Maybe it's just because she is an easy target, and doesn't like male ISIS fighters have the option of carrying on their activities elsewhere in the world.
EDIT: Maybe there is a bit of misogyny going on here, coupled with racism and Islamophobia. After all, we didn't didn't deprive IRA terrorists of their British citizenship, despite the fact they were entitled to Irish citizenship, and leave it for the Irish government to sort out. [Post edited 22 Feb 2023 12:55]
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It seems this is all about playing to the gallery. She’s a useful tool in the ongoing culture war. |  |
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| Shamima Begum on 12:59 - Feb 22 with 2102 views | BlueandTruesince82 |
People of all ages can be brainwashed, I can't say if she was or not but at 15 you do understand that going to join a group hell bent on murdering anyone who disagrees with their ideoly probably isn't something that you should be doing and agree that she has to take some responsibility for her actions, so far it feels to me that any repentance she has offered is platitudes in the name of a slick media campaign by her lawyers and had the littler remose she has shown come across as genuine inthink it would have done a lot more for her than trying to portray her as this total innocent who had no idea what she was doing. I'm pretty confident at 15 I knew the difference between right and wrong and whilst accept some people at that age may not as a result of their upbringing Begum does not appear to have come from that kind of background
The UKs general handling of those who joined IS has mot been great, I note Canada agreed to take Jack Letts though he does appear to be more genuinely remorseful, none the less it paints a poor picture of our handling and with the right investment in anti radicalisation teams we as a nation certainly could do more for those who remain in Syria.
Should she be tried here? If so what would deem a suitable sentence (assuming guilt would be found)? |  |
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| Shamima Begum on 13:09 - Feb 22 with 2011 views | Zapers |
| Shamima Begum on 11:21 - Feb 22 by spiderman |
Bloody good job |
Correct decision. | | | |
| Shamima Begum on 13:16 - Feb 22 with 1959 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Shamima Begum on 12:49 - Feb 22 by Swansea_Blue |
It seems this is all about playing to the gallery. She’s a useful tool in the ongoing culture war. |
Exactly, you can see it’s already divided people in here - and I’m sure the wider public is reflective of that.
Classic “look over there” tactics. | | | |
| Shamima Begum on 13:18 - Feb 22 with 1936 views | ElderGrizzly |
The court have actually passed the decision to Braverman.
So, the most likely place she'll end up is Rwanda... |  | | |
| Shamima Begum on 13:21 - Feb 22 with 1904 views | BlueandTruesince82 |
| Shamima Begum on 12:49 - Feb 22 by Swansea_Blue |
It seems this is all about playing to the gallery. She’s a useful tool in the ongoing culture war. |
Useful for both sides mind. That's v much a 2 way street | |
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| Shamima Begum on 13:21 - Feb 22 with 1894 views | Blueschev |
| Shamima Begum on 12:59 - Feb 22 by BlueandTruesince82 |
People of all ages can be brainwashed, I can't say if she was or not but at 15 you do understand that going to join a group hell bent on murdering anyone who disagrees with their ideoly probably isn't something that you should be doing and agree that she has to take some responsibility for her actions, so far it feels to me that any repentance she has offered is platitudes in the name of a slick media campaign by her lawyers and had the littler remose she has shown come across as genuine inthink it would have done a lot more for her than trying to portray her as this total innocent who had no idea what she was doing. I'm pretty confident at 15 I knew the difference between right and wrong and whilst accept some people at that age may not as a result of their upbringing Begum does not appear to have come from that kind of background
The UKs general handling of those who joined IS has mot been great, I note Canada agreed to take Jack Letts though he does appear to be more genuinely remorseful, none the less it paints a poor picture of our handling and with the right investment in anti radicalisation teams we as a nation certainly could do more for those who remain in Syria.
Should she be tried here? If so what would deem a suitable sentence (assuming guilt would be found)? |
How can the government say that she bare responsibility when they have completely shirked their own responsibility with regards to one of their own citizens? Do they not have a responsibility to prevent such instances occurring in the first place? Why should another country take responsibility for a citizen born and bread in this country? [Post edited 22 Feb 2023 13:32]
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| Shamima Begum on 13:27 - Feb 22 with 1850 views | itfcjoe |
| Shamima Begum on 12:18 - Feb 22 by clive_baker |
It is a difficult one given she was so young, impressionable and arguably a victim of grooming, but that's a separate point to the one you make really. That said, she has to take some personal responsibility and by all accounts she was very active at trying to recruit others to join her, and had a reputation within the ISIS community as particularly 'hard lined'. Perhaps it makes me a bad person but to be perfectly honest I'm not going to lose any sleep over the fact she's not going to be allowed back into society in the UK.
Purely from a process point of view I do agree with you though, I'm not sure why it's appropriate to not bring her here given she's a British born British citizen. Instead it feels like we're happy to make her someone else's problem. |
I've been listening to the podcast series about her from the BBC, and even in that it's clear she is still withholding so much - and the presenter lays this out where she has a father figure who she doesn't know much about, then the next time they speak it is more detail that she had said she couldn't remember, and then again in further times he has asked her even more etc.
There are more than likely perfectly good reasons for this, fearing for her safety, her future, compartmentalising things etc.......but regardless she is totally untrustworthy and I just don't see any way that her life can carry on back in this country after what she has done - bar being locked up 24/7 which is good for no one.
I have sympathy with her, because clearly elements of grooming - but she's a lost cause |  |
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| Shamima Begum on 13:27 - Feb 22 with 1842 views | eireblue |
| Shamima Begum on 13:21 - Feb 22 by Blueschev |
How can the government say that she bare responsibility when they have completely shirked their own responsibility with regards to one of their own citizens? Do they not have a responsibility to prevent such instances occurring in the first place? Why should another country take responsibility for a citizen born and bread in this country? [Post edited 22 Feb 2023 13:32]
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Hmm, you raise a very good point.
Those illegal immigrants, well surely their criminal behaviour only started once they entered the U.K. Makes them all the responsibility of the U.K. and they should stay here, since that is where the crime took place.
Logic init. |  | | |
| Shamima Begum on 13:28 - Feb 22 with 1831 views | Blueschev |
| Shamima Begum on 13:27 - Feb 22 by eireblue |
Hmm, you raise a very good point.
Those illegal immigrants, well surely their criminal behaviour only started once they entered the U.K. Makes them all the responsibility of the U.K. and they should stay here, since that is where the crime took place.
Logic init. |
I have no idea what point you're making to be honest? | | | |
| Shamima Begum on 13:29 - Feb 22 with 1829 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Shamima Begum on 13:21 - Feb 22 by Blueschev |
How can the government say that she bare responsibility when they have completely shirked their own responsibility with regards to one of their own citizens? Do they not have a responsibility to prevent such instances occurring in the first place? Why should another country take responsibility for a citizen born and bread in this country? [Post edited 22 Feb 2023 13:32]
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They kneaded to take her nationality into account… | | | |
| Shamima Begum on 13:30 - Feb 22 with 1825 views | DJR |
| Shamima Begum on 13:21 - Feb 22 by BlueandTruesince82 |
Useful for both sides mind. That's v much a 2 way street |
Sadly, those opposed to the removal of the citizenship of Shamima Begum are very much in the minority, according to the following poll, so if it's a two way street, it's one with two lanes on one side and ten lanes on the other side.
https://news.sky.com/story/shamima-begum-78-of-britons-support-revoking-is-bride
The Tories know what they're doing. [Post edited 22 Feb 2023 13:32]
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| Shamima Begum on 13:35 - Feb 22 with 1759 views | DJR |
| Shamima Begum on 13:27 - Feb 22 by itfcjoe |
I've been listening to the podcast series about her from the BBC, and even in that it's clear she is still withholding so much - and the presenter lays this out where she has a father figure who she doesn't know much about, then the next time they speak it is more detail that she had said she couldn't remember, and then again in further times he has asked her even more etc.
There are more than likely perfectly good reasons for this, fearing for her safety, her future, compartmentalising things etc.......but regardless she is totally untrustworthy and I just don't see any way that her life can carry on back in this country after what she has done - bar being locked up 24/7 which is good for no one.
I have sympathy with her, because clearly elements of grooming - but she's a lost cause |
I don't think we normally fail to prosecute people just because they're wrong'uns!
And there is always the option of a false identity. [Post edited 22 Feb 2023 13:40]
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| Shamima Begum on 13:36 - Feb 22 with 1752 views | bournemouthblue |
| Shamima Begum on 13:18 - Feb 22 by ElderGrizzly |
The court have actually passed the decision to Braverman.
So, the most likely place she'll end up is Rwanda... |
Talk about a double whammy for political distraction |  |
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| Shamima Begum on 13:45 - Feb 22 with 1700 views | DJR |
The following, from the Guardian, indicates that even some Tories object to what is going on.
"Senior Conservatives also condemned the government’s treatment of Begum. David Davis, the vice-chair of the all-party parliamentary group on trafficked Britons in Syria, said it was “a shameful abdication of responsibility and must be remedied”.
Sayeeda Warsi said citizenship-stripping powers “have been used almost exclusively against Muslims, mainly of south Asian, Middle Eastern and African heritage, creating a two-tier citizenship system completely at odds with British values of fairness and equality before the law.”
She said the “extreme” powers were of concern to 6 million people in Britain with a claim to dual nationality."
EDIT: David Davis is a very sound person when it comes to constitional/civil rights-type questions, and also opposes the Rwanda policy. [Post edited 22 Feb 2023 13:57]
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