| Just Stop Oil 11:38 - May 25 with 12309 views | GeoffSentence |
Have done the Chelsea Flower Show now.
Is Nothing Sacred?
Edit: Just seen that Keno has done this already. [Post edited 25 May 2023 11:45]
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| Just Stop Oil on 13:54 - May 26 with 1846 views | Herbivore |
| Just Stop Oil on 13:18 - May 26 by lowhouseblue |
you can consume less - for example by not flying regularly. life without fossil fuel in the west would be extremely difficult - life using much less fossil fuel is perfectly possible if consumers make those choices. have those supporting just stop oil made those choices? the relationship between consumption and production is very straightforward and very direct. oil companies only exist because we consume oil.
anyway, i'm going to follow your logic and, since i have never slaughtered an animal or milked a cow, declare myself to be a vegan. i eat meat, but those farmers are absolutely nothing to do with me. |
That post is a car crash, particularly the last part. Trying to be clever doesn't work well for you, in the same way it doesn't go well for a fish to try walking on land and breathing the air.
You still fail to grasp at all the way that consumer choice is shaped and limited by the actions and inactions of governments and large corporations. As I mentioned in another post, I would love to get an air source heat pump and switching from a gas boiler to an air source heat pump is one of the biggest things I could do to cut down my use of fossil fuels. But even with government grants it will cost in excess of £10k to do so and I can't afford that. A gas boiler replacement by contrast would cost me more like £3k. And that is in large part down to a lack of will from governments and businesses to invest in greener technology to make it scaleable and more affordable. New houses are still being built with gas boilers FFS, but I'm sure you'll claim that's the fault of consumers too rather than the government and large developers.
If you want to labour the veganism point, there are plentiful affordable food options that aren't derived from animal products so that is an instance where people have genuine choice. What they choose to do is up to them but there is usually little fervour for pushing that change despite it being relatively easy and demonstrably being one of the biggest things an individual can do to reduce their emissions.
The same is not true for lots of other every day things people can do to reduce their emissions. If people want to switch to electric cars they still cost a lot of money and the infrastructure to support them is still being developed. If people want to go one better and give up car ownership they need reliable, affordable, and clean public transport. We also don't have that.
The choices are proscribed by governments and business and what they choose to invest in or not. The notion that decisions about where to invest are solely down to consumer choice is bobbins. At this point it doesn't benefit oil companies to significantly reinvest in greener tech because they are set up to efficiently extract oil and sell it at a price that makes them very large profits. Through realistic alternatives to the use of fossil fuels being restricted, it benefits those companies and their shareholders, and it's those shareholders to whom they are beholden, not consumers. There's a reason large fossil fuel companies spend so much lobbying governments to slow moves away from fossil fuels and it's not because they care about consumers. [Post edited 26 May 2023 13:57]
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| Just Stop Oil on 14:01 - May 26 with 1808 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Just Stop Oil on 09:20 - May 26 by DanTheMan |
It's a chicken and egg situation. Countries try and make laws to stop them doing what they do but they have massive lobbying arms that are very effective at blocking those laws from ever coming to fruition.
It's easy to blame them because for years they have funded efforts to rubbish the scientists that were sounding the alarms for decades but that no longer works so they pretend to be moving towards green energy whilst not really doing it.
Yes, if we all stopped participating then it would work but the likelihood of everyone collectively doing is that close to 0. It needs to come from a Government level.
A good example of this (and it's an American statistic) is that if you were to look at your "carbon footprint" before you do literally anything, just by merely existing over 50% of the total per year is made up of what the Government does. Because it's all the infrastructure that is made like roads we have no say in, or it's what the Government itself uses, or it's the military etc.
Fossil fuel companies have rigged the system is basically my point. |
Fundamental and lasting change will only be sustainably delivered from the bottom up imho.
Edit. Top down ones will always be greenwash. [Post edited 26 May 2023 14:02]
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| Just Stop Oil on 14:12 - May 26 with 1766 views | J2BLUE |
| Just Stop Oil on 13:48 - May 26 by nodge_blue |
Why have you changed your name? |
Because he knows one say soon he's going to refer to Town as 'we' and he wants to put a bit of distance between himself and his previous name. |  |
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| Just Stop Oil on 14:18 - May 26 with 1759 views | lowhouseblue |
| Just Stop Oil on 13:54 - May 26 by Herbivore |
That post is a car crash, particularly the last part. Trying to be clever doesn't work well for you, in the same way it doesn't go well for a fish to try walking on land and breathing the air.
You still fail to grasp at all the way that consumer choice is shaped and limited by the actions and inactions of governments and large corporations. As I mentioned in another post, I would love to get an air source heat pump and switching from a gas boiler to an air source heat pump is one of the biggest things I could do to cut down my use of fossil fuels. But even with government grants it will cost in excess of £10k to do so and I can't afford that. A gas boiler replacement by contrast would cost me more like £3k. And that is in large part down to a lack of will from governments and businesses to invest in greener technology to make it scaleable and more affordable. New houses are still being built with gas boilers FFS, but I'm sure you'll claim that's the fault of consumers too rather than the government and large developers.
If you want to labour the veganism point, there are plentiful affordable food options that aren't derived from animal products so that is an instance where people have genuine choice. What they choose to do is up to them but there is usually little fervour for pushing that change despite it being relatively easy and demonstrably being one of the biggest things an individual can do to reduce their emissions.
The same is not true for lots of other every day things people can do to reduce their emissions. If people want to switch to electric cars they still cost a lot of money and the infrastructure to support them is still being developed. If people want to go one better and give up car ownership they need reliable, affordable, and clean public transport. We also don't have that.
The choices are proscribed by governments and business and what they choose to invest in or not. The notion that decisions about where to invest are solely down to consumer choice is bobbins. At this point it doesn't benefit oil companies to significantly reinvest in greener tech because they are set up to efficiently extract oil and sell it at a price that makes them very large profits. Through realistic alternatives to the use of fossil fuels being restricted, it benefits those companies and their shareholders, and it's those shareholders to whom they are beholden, not consumers. There's a reason large fossil fuel companies spend so much lobbying governments to slow moves away from fossil fuels and it's not because they care about consumers. [Post edited 26 May 2023 13:57]
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you don't respond to the original point about flying.
alternatives to fossil fuels are not being restricted. they cost more. that is in terms of the resources required to build and install them. that is the current state of technology. ground source heat pumps are much more expensive piece of kit in terms of what goes into them than a gas boiler. they also involve significant changes to most houses which again comes at a real resource cost. they are also lees flexible and convenient and it involves people adapting to not having instant heat or higher temperatures. all those things involve choices.
yes the government needs to force through further technical change and grow the market so that economies are achieved that reduce costs. but the thing about fossil fuels is that - ignoring the effects on the environment - they are an incredibly cheap and flexible and convenient for people living the life styles they want. all the improvements in western life styles that occurred in the 20th century came about because of fossil fuel - the ability to travel, to fly, to consume more, to live in bigger heated spaces, to have the variety of food stuffs and consumer goods imported from across the world - everything that makes up a middle class western lifestyle - has come about because of fossil fuel. people don't want to give that up - and the alternatives cost more, can't support the same level of consumption and are less convenient. we need to travel less, consume less, and only fly very occasional - even given the technical alternatives.
fossil fuel companies make profits because we all in the west live well - ignoring the environmental consequences - by consuming what they produce. we can't any longer ignore those consequences, but the alternatives are no restricted by oil companies - instead, as they currently exist, they are not attractive to consumers.
people survive without cars. people survive without flying. people do prioritise degasification. all those things come at a cost - both money and inconvenience. but we do have agency and what we do and choose matters - it can't all be blamed on someone else or corporations. corporations want profits - if they can sell alternatives to oil at a profit then that's what they will do. the role of government is to create the situation - through subsidy, regulation, and market creation - where alternatives are profitable and are sufficiently attractive in cost and practical terms for consumers to choose them.
and declaring other people's posts 'a car crash' and pretending to be cleverer is really really pathetic. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Just Stop Oil on 14:28 - May 26 with 1729 views | Herbivore |
| Just Stop Oil on 14:18 - May 26 by lowhouseblue |
you don't respond to the original point about flying.
alternatives to fossil fuels are not being restricted. they cost more. that is in terms of the resources required to build and install them. that is the current state of technology. ground source heat pumps are much more expensive piece of kit in terms of what goes into them than a gas boiler. they also involve significant changes to most houses which again comes at a real resource cost. they are also lees flexible and convenient and it involves people adapting to not having instant heat or higher temperatures. all those things involve choices.
yes the government needs to force through further technical change and grow the market so that economies are achieved that reduce costs. but the thing about fossil fuels is that - ignoring the effects on the environment - they are an incredibly cheap and flexible and convenient for people living the life styles they want. all the improvements in western life styles that occurred in the 20th century came about because of fossil fuel - the ability to travel, to fly, to consume more, to live in bigger heated spaces, to have the variety of food stuffs and consumer goods imported from across the world - everything that makes up a middle class western lifestyle - has come about because of fossil fuel. people don't want to give that up - and the alternatives cost more, can't support the same level of consumption and are less convenient. we need to travel less, consume less, and only fly very occasional - even given the technical alternatives.
fossil fuel companies make profits because we all in the west live well - ignoring the environmental consequences - by consuming what they produce. we can't any longer ignore those consequences, but the alternatives are no restricted by oil companies - instead, as they currently exist, they are not attractive to consumers.
people survive without cars. people survive without flying. people do prioritise degasification. all those things come at a cost - both money and inconvenience. but we do have agency and what we do and choose matters - it can't all be blamed on someone else or corporations. corporations want profits - if they can sell alternatives to oil at a profit then that's what they will do. the role of government is to create the situation - through subsidy, regulation, and market creation - where alternatives are profitable and are sufficiently attractive in cost and practical terms for consumers to choose them.
and declaring other people's posts 'a car crash' and pretending to be cleverer is really really pathetic. |
If you're going to act a knob towards others it's a bit rich to get all indignant when they give you a bit back.
So your point is essentially that people should fly less. No sh*t, Sherlock. But for the numerous other areas of individuals' lives it is very evident that realistic alternatives that would enable them to reduce their consumption aren't available or aren't affordable so the notion of choice in those cases is illusory at best. | |
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| Just Stop Oil on 14:33 - May 26 with 1710 views | lowhouseblue |
| Just Stop Oil on 14:28 - May 26 by Herbivore |
If you're going to act a knob towards others it's a bit rich to get all indignant when they give you a bit back.
So your point is essentially that people should fly less. No sh*t, Sherlock. But for the numerous other areas of individuals' lives it is very evident that realistic alternatives that would enable them to reduce their consumption aren't available or aren't affordable so the notion of choice in those cases is illusory at best. |
fly less, drive less, consume less, don't buy things which have been transported a long way, buy second hand, reuse, heat less, browse less, etc etc. all of those choices are possible - most of them will save you money. they are choices - they aren't being made for you by oil companies. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Just Stop Oil on 14:38 - May 26 with 1691 views | Herbivore |
| Just Stop Oil on 14:33 - May 26 by lowhouseblue |
fly less, drive less, consume less, don't buy things which have been transported a long way, buy second hand, reuse, heat less, browse less, etc etc. all of those choices are possible - most of them will save you money. they are choices - they aren't being made for you by oil companies. |
And how will those choices stop the electricity that we consume still being derived in large part from burning fossil fuels? How will driving less give me access to cheap, reliable, and green public transport? All of the tinkering around the edges you suggest won't make the big impact that is required to reduce emissions to more sustainable levels. | |
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| Just Stop Oil on 14:47 - May 26 with 1682 views | lowhouseblue |
| Just Stop Oil on 14:38 - May 26 by Herbivore |
And how will those choices stop the electricity that we consume still being derived in large part from burning fossil fuels? How will driving less give me access to cheap, reliable, and green public transport? All of the tinkering around the edges you suggest won't make the big impact that is required to reduce emissions to more sustainable levels. |
changing lifestyles isn't tinkering around the edges. it's fundamental. the change in electricity mix is being driven by government and is happening. changing the electricity mix in the uk is a success story. there is public transport - it may be inconvenient but using it or not using it is still a choice. if your line is that you will only change from fossil fuel when it replicates the exact same lifestyle as you currently have - with all the same convenience and all the same consumption and at the same cost - travelling the same and flying the round the world with no impact on the environment - it's never going to happen. you can travel by public transport now and you can travel less - but you choose not to. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Just Stop Oil on 14:52 - May 26 with 1661 views | nodge_blue |
| Just Stop Oil on 14:12 - May 26 by J2BLUE |
Because he knows one say soon he's going to refer to Town as 'we' and he wants to put a bit of distance between himself and his previous name. |
Did we ever establish what an ullah is? Was that the word?
Or even a stow. Is that for stowmarket? Has he just moved from ullah land? |  |
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| Just Stop Oil on 15:07 - May 26 with 1634 views | Herbivore |
| Just Stop Oil on 14:47 - May 26 by lowhouseblue |
changing lifestyles isn't tinkering around the edges. it's fundamental. the change in electricity mix is being driven by government and is happening. changing the electricity mix in the uk is a success story. there is public transport - it may be inconvenient but using it or not using it is still a choice. if your line is that you will only change from fossil fuel when it replicates the exact same lifestyle as you currently have - with all the same convenience and all the same consumption and at the same cost - travelling the same and flying the round the world with no impact on the environment - it's never going to happen. you can travel by public transport now and you can travel less - but you choose not to. |
I already travel a lot by public transport or I walk, but I am fortunate enough to be able to afford our comparatively expensive public transport and I live in a city where there actually is some - albeit unreliable - public transport and where lots of amenities are walkable. The same isn't true for many, many people. The notion that everyone can suddenly choose to stop travelling to places is pie in the sky stuff. People have to travel to work, many people have to travel for work, lots of people have to travel to access other essential services too.
And personal household emissions only make up around 40% of total emissions in the UK. That leaves 60% coming from government and businesses. So even if individuals are able to reduce their emissions in some areas, it is still largely tinkering around the edges without government and businesses doing a lot more of the heavy lifting, both in reducing their own reliance on fossil fuels and making greener solutions more available and affordable for the public. | |
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| Just Stop Oil on 15:12 - May 26 with 1626 views | Powrigan |
Morons will be Morons |  | | |
| Just Stop Oil on 15:14 - May 26 with 1617 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Just Stop Oil on 15:12 - May 26 by Powrigan |
Morons will be Morons |
Won’t somebody think of the flowers! |  | | |
| Just Stop Oil on 15:18 - May 26 with 1608 views | lowhouseblue |
| Just Stop Oil on 15:07 - May 26 by Herbivore |
I already travel a lot by public transport or I walk, but I am fortunate enough to be able to afford our comparatively expensive public transport and I live in a city where there actually is some - albeit unreliable - public transport and where lots of amenities are walkable. The same isn't true for many, many people. The notion that everyone can suddenly choose to stop travelling to places is pie in the sky stuff. People have to travel to work, many people have to travel for work, lots of people have to travel to access other essential services too.
And personal household emissions only make up around 40% of total emissions in the UK. That leaves 60% coming from government and businesses. So even if individuals are able to reduce their emissions in some areas, it is still largely tinkering around the edges without government and businesses doing a lot more of the heavy lifting, both in reducing their own reliance on fossil fuels and making greener solutions more available and affordable for the public. |
so why are government and business producing emissions? - does it involve producing things for consumers to use or consume? if you buy a product which is energy intensive the fact that you didn't make it yourself - business did - doesn't alter your responsibility for that energy and those associated emissions.
i agree that travel is hard to reduce if you live remotely etc and zero travel isn't practical, but at the margin travelling less will use less fossil fuel. it will also reduce the fossil fuel company profits. so it's just stop oil in practice. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Just Stop Oil on 15:24 - May 26 with 1574 views | Powrigan |
I know, the wee flowers don’t deserve to be ruined by brainwashed fools.
I really do pity the youth who have a whole life ahead with all this nonsense going on. [Post edited 26 May 2023 15:28]
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| Just Stop Oil on 15:28 - May 26 with 1545 views | Herbivore |
| Just Stop Oil on 15:18 - May 26 by lowhouseblue |
so why are government and business producing emissions? - does it involve producing things for consumers to use or consume? if you buy a product which is energy intensive the fact that you didn't make it yourself - business did - doesn't alter your responsibility for that energy and those associated emissions.
i agree that travel is hard to reduce if you live remotely etc and zero travel isn't practical, but at the margin travelling less will use less fossil fuel. it will also reduce the fossil fuel company profits. so it's just stop oil in practice. |
And why is the energy that businesses and governments use still causing such a high level of emissions when you say that green electricity is a success story? And why are we those businesses transporting goods using vehicles that use diesel rather than electric vehicles? Is it because consumers decide that they should use fossil fuels to support their manufacturing and logistics? Just as zero travel isn't possible, nor is zero consumption. And without consumption you have no economy and whilst personally I'm all for bringing an end to capitalism and radically reducing consumption, I didn't think that was really your bag. | |
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| Just Stop Oil on 15:35 - May 26 with 1521 views | lowhouseblue |
| Just Stop Oil on 15:28 - May 26 by Herbivore |
And why is the energy that businesses and governments use still causing such a high level of emissions when you say that green electricity is a success story? And why are we those businesses transporting goods using vehicles that use diesel rather than electric vehicles? Is it because consumers decide that they should use fossil fuels to support their manufacturing and logistics? Just as zero travel isn't possible, nor is zero consumption. And without consumption you have no economy and whilst personally I'm all for bringing an end to capitalism and radically reducing consumption, I didn't think that was really your bag. |
it's because consumers want cheap stuff and currently diesel is by far the cheapest way of transporting the mass of stuff we all currently consume. why aren't you fitting a heat pump - it's too expensive. why aren't firms changing to electric vehicles* - it's too expensive and it will increase the price of what they sell to consumers. government needs to intervene to change that calculation - but consumers don't want to pay for the change and will always buy what's cheapest.
(*personally i'm not convinced that electric vehicles are the answer to sustain our current manufacturing / consumption pattern. while the electricity can be low carbon, the energy and natural resources embodied in batteries is absolutely colossal and the pay back usage is high. trains are better). | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Just Stop Oil on 15:59 - May 26 with 1465 views | Herbivore |
| Just Stop Oil on 15:35 - May 26 by lowhouseblue |
it's because consumers want cheap stuff and currently diesel is by far the cheapest way of transporting the mass of stuff we all currently consume. why aren't you fitting a heat pump - it's too expensive. why aren't firms changing to electric vehicles* - it's too expensive and it will increase the price of what they sell to consumers. government needs to intervene to change that calculation - but consumers don't want to pay for the change and will always buy what's cheapest.
(*personally i'm not convinced that electric vehicles are the answer to sustain our current manufacturing / consumption pattern. while the electricity can be low carbon, the energy and natural resources embodied in batteries is absolutely colossal and the pay back usage is high. trains are better). |
Many consumers can't afford to pay more in the current economic climate, and it's not like they are really being given a lot of more eco options within the marketplace irrespective of cost. I'd argue businesses look to keep costs down to enable them to maximise profits, that is their primary driver and that is why they prioritise cost over social and environmental concerns. We agree that governments need to do more to intervene but they've been incredibly slow and reluctant to do so. So much of what needs to be done to make a meaningful change goes way beyond individual choice, but I think we'll have to agree to disagree somewhat on that, and apologies for calling your earlier post trash, that was unnecessary. | |
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| Just Stop Oil on 16:01 - May 26 with 1440 views | lowhouseblue |
| Just Stop Oil on 15:59 - May 26 by Herbivore |
Many consumers can't afford to pay more in the current economic climate, and it's not like they are really being given a lot of more eco options within the marketplace irrespective of cost. I'd argue businesses look to keep costs down to enable them to maximise profits, that is their primary driver and that is why they prioritise cost over social and environmental concerns. We agree that governments need to do more to intervene but they've been incredibly slow and reluctant to do so. So much of what needs to be done to make a meaningful change goes way beyond individual choice, but I think we'll have to agree to disagree somewhat on that, and apologies for calling your earlier post trash, that was unnecessary. |
it was a fun discussion. cheers. in any case i can't claim to do these things right - i do lots of the things i've said there needs to be less of. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Just Stop Oil on 19:40 - May 26 with 1356 views | Lord_Lucan |
| Just Stop Oil on 08:14 - May 26 by Swansea_Blue |
They use something like a quarter of all the world’s energy, don’t they? Maybe more. Just bonkers. I’m envious of your opportunities to go out there though - I’d love to have a good look around the place. Must be something else. |
I don't know how much they use as a percentage but when I first started going the city had power cuts most nights as they simply ran out of power. You had to sleep wearing thermal long johns and vests.
It is of course an experience to visit the place and it was very interesting the first few times but now it's a bit of a struggle as there is nothing to do. I guess it would be different if in a big city like Shanghai or Beijing. Liuyang though, which is always the place I have to go to may be three times the size of Birmingham but there is nothing to do. I just came back the other week from a 17 day stint and I nearly went doolally.
There is nothing to do of an evening but drink in the lobby bar. I got so p1ssed after the Barnsley game and continued night after night. By the time we played Exeter I was a state - so much so that I actually cancelled the next day as it was affecting my mental health, I was in a constant state of anxiety - which isn't helped by the fact the only people you speak to are suppliers who don't understand half of what you say. Swear to God I nearly chucked myself off the balcony. Proper wobble!!! Never experienced anything like it before. In the end I had a word with myself, stopped drinking wine and I then recovered and felt 100% better.
The other thing you have to be careful of is needing a sh1t outside of your hotel as the only option is to sh1t in one of those porcelain holes in the the ground and then stick the designated hose up your arse to clean yourself up. To add to the difficulty is you are out all day visiting factories usually between an hour to three hours from your hotel. You can visit three factories in a day and all they want to do is feed you. It's a difficult balancing act. |  |
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| Just Stop Oil on 23:36 - May 26 with 1247 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Just Stop Oil on 14:01 - May 26 by BanksterDebtSlave |
Fundamental and lasting change will only be sustainably delivered from the bottom up imho.
Edit. Top down ones will always be greenwash. [Post edited 26 May 2023 14:02]
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Cows’ bottoms up ideally, given the amount of methane they produce.
But yes, a lot of corporate moves (unless in response to regulation) are often greenwash. |  |
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| Just Stop Oil on 23:44 - May 26 with 1221 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Just Stop Oil on 19:40 - May 26 by Lord_Lucan |
I don't know how much they use as a percentage but when I first started going the city had power cuts most nights as they simply ran out of power. You had to sleep wearing thermal long johns and vests.
It is of course an experience to visit the place and it was very interesting the first few times but now it's a bit of a struggle as there is nothing to do. I guess it would be different if in a big city like Shanghai or Beijing. Liuyang though, which is always the place I have to go to may be three times the size of Birmingham but there is nothing to do. I just came back the other week from a 17 day stint and I nearly went doolally.
There is nothing to do of an evening but drink in the lobby bar. I got so p1ssed after the Barnsley game and continued night after night. By the time we played Exeter I was a state - so much so that I actually cancelled the next day as it was affecting my mental health, I was in a constant state of anxiety - which isn't helped by the fact the only people you speak to are suppliers who don't understand half of what you say. Swear to God I nearly chucked myself off the balcony. Proper wobble!!! Never experienced anything like it before. In the end I had a word with myself, stopped drinking wine and I then recovered and felt 100% better.
The other thing you have to be careful of is needing a sh1t outside of your hotel as the only option is to sh1t in one of those porcelain holes in the the ground and then stick the designated hose up your arse to clean yourself up. To add to the difficulty is you are out all day visiting factories usually between an hour to three hours from your hotel. You can visit three factories in a day and all they want to do is feed you. It's a difficult balancing act. |
https://m.facebook.com/thebarnyardfl/videos/work-sleep-rinse-repeat-now-quit-tex | |
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| Just Stop Oil on 06:37 - May 27 with 1119 views | NthQldITFC |
| Just Stop Oil on 14:01 - May 26 by BanksterDebtSlave |
Fundamental and lasting change will only be sustainably delivered from the bottom up imho.
Edit. Top down ones will always be greenwash. [Post edited 26 May 2023 14:02]
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That's the conclusion I've come to as well. It seems to me that practically every pro-environment government or large company policy is at best a well-meaning temporary effort, destined to be changed by the next regime that comes in one or five years down the line. At worst, totally deceitful manipulative bullsh!t from scumbags.
We might get meaningful top down action, but only as a response to bottom up political revolution. And for that one hell of a lot of us have got, still, to be made seriously aware of the scale and imminence of the problem, and the laughable inadequacy of current 'efforts' and fantasy technological fixes. |  |
| # WE ARE STEALING THE FUTURE FROM OUR CHILDREN --- WE MUST CHANGE COURSE # | | Poll: | It's driving me nuts |
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| Ha! What a bunch of divs. (n/t) on 09:04 - May 27 with 1075 views | DJR |
| Ha! What a bunch of divs. (n/t) on 02:13 - May 26 by Ryorry |
I get what you mean and would agree with it, except that by picking the wrong target (ie people who are mostly already aware & trying to do their bit) makes the protesters look as if their ability to assess situations is somewhat lacking, potentially far from helpful in trying to convince others of the validity of the cause.
Yeah I know, call me nit-picking, but I just want to maximise successful campaigning by aiming at those with most power, so if I could, I’d be protesting outside the Embassies of the worst culprit countries. [Post edited 26 May 2023 4:04]
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I woke up early this morning and listened to LBC which was holding a phone-in about Just Stop Oil etc.
The callers were to a man/woman hostile to the type of action taking place, so it is not clear to me that the action is winning hearts and minds.
And there is a danger that the whole debate focuses on the disruption they are causing, not the cause they are doing it for. [Post edited 27 May 2023 9:05]
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| Ha! What a bunch of divs. (n/t) on 10:30 - May 27 with 1031 views | Ryorry |
| Ha! What a bunch of divs. (n/t) on 09:04 - May 27 by DJR |
I woke up early this morning and listened to LBC which was holding a phone-in about Just Stop Oil etc.
The callers were to a man/woman hostile to the type of action taking place, so it is not clear to me that the action is winning hearts and minds.
And there is a danger that the whole debate focuses on the disruption they are causing, not the cause they are doing it for. [Post edited 27 May 2023 9:05]
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Saw some highlights of the Chelsea Flower Show last night, first chance I’ve had to see anything of it.
It’s full of stalls, displays and show gardens done by charities and community groups promoting environmental, eco, conservation, physical and mental health causes (including NHS).
That made it even more a stupid choice of target imho - in fact I don’t think the protesters themselves were quite sure it was a good choice, they seemed distinctly uncomfortable and uncertain in their ‘performance’, I thought. |  |
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