| Just Stop Oil 11:38 - May 25 with 12191 views | GeoffSentence |
Have done the Chelsea Flower Show now.
Is Nothing Sacred?
Edit: Just seen that Keno has done this already. [Post edited 25 May 2023 11:45]
|  |
| |  |
| Just Stop Oil on 13:17 - May 25 with 1121 views | itfcjoe |
| Just Stop Oil on 13:08 - May 25 by clive_baker |
I think humans are inherently quite selfish, and we don't seem capable of taking sufficient corrective action until the issue is immediate and right in front of our noses. The problem with climate change is it will get to the point, if it hasn't already, where we're too far gone before that becomes the case.
When we take a step back and think about it all, it's absolutely absurd that we're so shackled by social constructs like industry and money, to the extent that its severely compromising our ability to continue to inhabit the planet we're living on. When you consider that as a society we do have to capabilities to correct the course we're on, but choose not to, it's actually fecking nuts. |
Physcologically humans are still evolved to look after themselves and their friends/family and any imminent dangers.
Climate change isn't going to just hit and we wake up and the world has ended, it will be adapted to as and when it changes and the major changes are happening around the world in countries with vast populations and nothing we can do will stop that.
There are nearly 3 billion people in China and India now, the population of Nigeria is expected to raise from 200m to 750m over the next 25 years. I'll keep washing out my yoghurt pots, and not making unnecessary journeys - but Just Stop Oil are p155ing in the wind and all their OTT fatalism is doing is ruining their own mental health. We are down an irreversible road, and we will have to innovate our way out of it, it's the only hope |  |
| |
| Just Stop Oil on 13:32 - May 25 with 1080 views | DanTheMan |
| Just Stop Oil on 13:17 - May 25 by itfcjoe |
Physcologically humans are still evolved to look after themselves and their friends/family and any imminent dangers.
Climate change isn't going to just hit and we wake up and the world has ended, it will be adapted to as and when it changes and the major changes are happening around the world in countries with vast populations and nothing we can do will stop that.
There are nearly 3 billion people in China and India now, the population of Nigeria is expected to raise from 200m to 750m over the next 25 years. I'll keep washing out my yoghurt pots, and not making unnecessary journeys - but Just Stop Oil are p155ing in the wind and all their OTT fatalism is doing is ruining their own mental health. We are down an irreversible road, and we will have to innovate our way out of it, it's the only hope |
Fatalism? They are just asking the Government to adhere to what the IEA has told them, that we cannot afford any more oil and gas... and yet we are exploring more oil and gas.
You're being fatalistic by saying there is nothing we can do to stop it. We absolutely can, the will just needs to be there.
Trying to rely on science to magically come up with solutions is asking for trouble. They should have been listened to in the first place. |  |
| |
| Just Stop Oil on 13:33 - May 25 with 1076 views | NthQldITFC |
| Just Stop Oil on 13:17 - May 25 by itfcjoe |
Physcologically humans are still evolved to look after themselves and their friends/family and any imminent dangers.
Climate change isn't going to just hit and we wake up and the world has ended, it will be adapted to as and when it changes and the major changes are happening around the world in countries with vast populations and nothing we can do will stop that.
There are nearly 3 billion people in China and India now, the population of Nigeria is expected to raise from 200m to 750m over the next 25 years. I'll keep washing out my yoghurt pots, and not making unnecessary journeys - but Just Stop Oil are p155ing in the wind and all their OTT fatalism is doing is ruining their own mental health. We are down an irreversible road, and we will have to innovate our way out of it, it's the only hope |
As you say the world won't just end, but the cascade of events triggered by each other, in the linked environmental:social system won't just be adapted to as and when they happen either. Every wasted second will multiply the damage through the coming years.
We could on an individual basis right now make a pact with ourselves to drastically cut back on our impact on the environment (we all know the sorts of things we need to be selfless enough to give up). It doesn't mean problem gone away, but it would give our kids a fighting chance for the future.
Innovation has a part to play, but at the moment climate change-mitigating innovations look very small and very far away. |  |
| # WE ARE STEALING THE FUTURE FROM OUR CHILDREN --- WE MUST CHANGE COURSE # | | Poll: | It's driving me nuts |
| |
| Just Stop Oil on 13:36 - May 25 with 1061 views | GeoffSentence |
| Just Stop Oil on 13:06 - May 25 by Herbivore |
Did they? Any evidence for that? |
none, because it is bollox. | |
| |
| Ha! What a bunch of divs. (n/t) on 13:41 - May 25 with 1045 views | Bloots |
| Just Stop Oil on 11:44 - May 25 by GeoffSentence |
I think that was the point.
"You can't grow plants and biodiversity if it is too hot to survive" |
|  |
| Enduringly lovable, intelligent and thunderingly exquisite. |
| |
| Ha! What a bunch of divs. (n/t) on 13:42 - May 25 with 1039 views | GeoffSentence |
| Ha! What a bunch of divs. (n/t) on 13:41 - May 25 by Bloots |
|
In what way? | |
| |
| Just Stop Oil on 13:45 - May 25 with 1022 views | J2BLUE |
| Just Stop Oil on 13:33 - May 25 by NthQldITFC |
As you say the world won't just end, but the cascade of events triggered by each other, in the linked environmental:social system won't just be adapted to as and when they happen either. Every wasted second will multiply the damage through the coming years.
We could on an individual basis right now make a pact with ourselves to drastically cut back on our impact on the environment (we all know the sorts of things we need to be selfless enough to give up). It doesn't mean problem gone away, but it would give our kids a fighting chance for the future.
Innovation has a part to play, but at the moment climate change-mitigating innovations look very small and very far away. |
What's the plan then? Not looking for obstacles, i'm looking for answers.
How do we radically change the global economy virtually overnight to put these issues at the heart of all decisions?
I don't think we can stop it. I'm not suggesting we don't try. Let's throw everything at it, but I just don't see how we can change quickly enough on a global level. |  |
| |
| Just Stop Oil on 13:46 - May 25 with 1017 views | eireblue |
| Just Stop Oil on 13:32 - May 25 by DanTheMan |
Fatalism? They are just asking the Government to adhere to what the IEA has told them, that we cannot afford any more oil and gas... and yet we are exploring more oil and gas.
You're being fatalistic by saying there is nothing we can do to stop it. We absolutely can, the will just needs to be there.
Trying to rely on science to magically come up with solutions is asking for trouble. They should have been listened to in the first place. |
That did prompt a funny thought about climate change denier types.
Pah, what do scientists know, they are always wrong and exaggerating.
Pah, all these people all so worried, listen people, scientists will save us. |  | | |
Login to get fewer ads
| Just Stop Oil on 13:52 - May 25 with 1008 views | Herbivore |
| Just Stop Oil on 13:17 - May 25 by itfcjoe |
Physcologically humans are still evolved to look after themselves and their friends/family and any imminent dangers.
Climate change isn't going to just hit and we wake up and the world has ended, it will be adapted to as and when it changes and the major changes are happening around the world in countries with vast populations and nothing we can do will stop that.
There are nearly 3 billion people in China and India now, the population of Nigeria is expected to raise from 200m to 750m over the next 25 years. I'll keep washing out my yoghurt pots, and not making unnecessary journeys - but Just Stop Oil are p155ing in the wind and all their OTT fatalism is doing is ruining their own mental health. We are down an irreversible road, and we will have to innovate our way out of it, it's the only hope |
Ironically, it is your view rather than Just Stop Oil's that is fatalistic. |  |
| |
| Crap hair. (n/t) on 13:54 - May 25 with 997 views | Bloots |
| Ha! What a bunch of divs. (n/t) on 13:42 - May 25 by GeoffSentence |
In what way? |
| |
| Enduringly lovable, intelligent and thunderingly exquisite. |
| |
| Just Stop Oil on 13:57 - May 25 with 991 views | NthQldITFC |
| Just Stop Oil on 13:45 - May 25 by J2BLUE |
What's the plan then? Not looking for obstacles, i'm looking for answers.
How do we radically change the global economy virtually overnight to put these issues at the heart of all decisions?
I don't think we can stop it. I'm not suggesting we don't try. Let's throw everything at it, but I just don't see how we can change quickly enough on a global level. |
On a personal level, all of the blindingly obvious things we can give up unilaterally - surely no need to list them, but start with short-haul flights, a limit on long haul flights, stupid oversized cars, limited meat consumption...
On a governmental level (regional, national and international) legislation for some of the above, massive windfall taxes to fund public transport and nationalised not-for-profit public services. Embracing the ethos of doughnut economics and discarding ego-led growth in order to save the finite world.
It's all doable if you step outside of narrow short-term self-interest and established economics, as you would have to on a war footing for example. The crucial change is in attitude.
But your last para "don't think we can stop it" is the biggest problem - as Joe says too, we can't stop it - it's not a binary outcome - but we can mitigate the effects with changes like the above, and every second we waste makes less mitigation possible.
Edit: By making it an intellectual answer of either "we can stop it" or "we can't stop it", we inevitably come to the latter and give up. We can still make a difference if we don't give up. [Post edited 25 May 2023 14:02]
| |
| # WE ARE STEALING THE FUTURE FROM OUR CHILDREN --- WE MUST CHANGE COURSE # | | Poll: | It's driving me nuts |
| |
| Just Stop Oil on 13:58 - May 25 with 991 views | DanTheMan |
| Just Stop Oil on 13:45 - May 25 by J2BLUE |
What's the plan then? Not looking for obstacles, i'm looking for answers.
How do we radically change the global economy virtually overnight to put these issues at the heart of all decisions?
I don't think we can stop it. I'm not suggesting we don't try. Let's throw everything at it, but I just don't see how we can change quickly enough on a global level. |
I think you're right in that we might not be able to be.
But as you correctly point out, we should throw the kitchen sink at it. Stop drilling for more fossil fuels, massively increase green / non-fossil fuel energy production, insulation programs, public transport improvements... the list goes on and on.
There's so much we could be doing but until the issues start smacking politicians in the face, I don't think they're going to be that bothered. They're more worried about the appearance they are doing something rather than actually doing it.
I've recommended the channel before but Climate Town on YouTube has some excellent videos on all of the ins and outs on this, and looks at things from a positive perspective when it comes to the future. | |
| |
| Just Stop Oil on 14:12 - May 25 with 960 views | J2BLUE |
| Just Stop Oil on 13:57 - May 25 by NthQldITFC |
On a personal level, all of the blindingly obvious things we can give up unilaterally - surely no need to list them, but start with short-haul flights, a limit on long haul flights, stupid oversized cars, limited meat consumption...
On a governmental level (regional, national and international) legislation for some of the above, massive windfall taxes to fund public transport and nationalised not-for-profit public services. Embracing the ethos of doughnut economics and discarding ego-led growth in order to save the finite world.
It's all doable if you step outside of narrow short-term self-interest and established economics, as you would have to on a war footing for example. The crucial change is in attitude.
But your last para "don't think we can stop it" is the biggest problem - as Joe says too, we can't stop it - it's not a binary outcome - but we can mitigate the effects with changes like the above, and every second we waste makes less mitigation possible.
Edit: By making it an intellectual answer of either "we can stop it" or "we can't stop it", we inevitably come to the latter and give up. We can still make a difference if we don't give up. [Post edited 25 May 2023 14:02]
|
Agree with all of that. I was more thinking of how we could change the economy to make these changes easier.
If we are relying on people to make those changes it will be a long wait. Of course not everyone is selfish but if we are relying on individuals it's not going to end well.
For the record I am mostly vegetarian, I eat very little meat and I haven't taken a flight for over a decade. For everyone who does the same there is someone who eats meat three times a day and takes a flight every other month.
I think it needs to come from the top (again not suggesting people do not do anything). People need to be forced to make these changes and given some sort of incentive to do so. I don't mean a bribe as much as compensation for what people lose. If people lose their jobs then something like UBI is needed. Do we have it in us to make radical changes? Do the people who control the media and the political narrative (the wealthy) really care what happens to the 99%? Are we going to see the Washington Post argue against consumerism any time soon and demand a radical overhaul of the global economy? | |
| |
| Just Stop Oil on 14:12 - May 25 with 952 views | Lord_Lucan |
| Just Stop Oil on 13:17 - May 25 by itfcjoe |
Physcologically humans are still evolved to look after themselves and their friends/family and any imminent dangers.
Climate change isn't going to just hit and we wake up and the world has ended, it will be adapted to as and when it changes and the major changes are happening around the world in countries with vast populations and nothing we can do will stop that.
There are nearly 3 billion people in China and India now, the population of Nigeria is expected to raise from 200m to 750m over the next 25 years. I'll keep washing out my yoghurt pots, and not making unnecessary journeys - but Just Stop Oil are p155ing in the wind and all their OTT fatalism is doing is ruining their own mental health. We are down an irreversible road, and we will have to innovate our way out of it, it's the only hope |
I largely agree with this.
I was in Guangzhou recently and since the last time I went it is now pretty much joined up to Shenzhen and Donguan making a combined population of around 50 million - basically they have made in effect a super city with a population of England
Then I was in Liuyang, now I have been going to Liuyang every year for 20 years and when I first went it took over 4 hours to get there from Changsha airport, these days it takes 45 mins as they have basically tunnelled through all the mountains, in fact one factory I visited has tripled in size because they basically cut 25% of a mountain away and extended their premises into it. The whole city has unrecognisably changed, they have even turned the city round 90 degrees to face in the other direction.
What I am saying is, they are unstoppable - and India have taken them over, much to the annoyance of The Chinese as they genuinely see it as a race.
I have my worries about climate change and I genuinely looked out of my balcony one night and thought "This is barmy" - in a way it kind of makes the Stop Oil lot look fecking clueless if you want my honest opinion. |  |
| |
| Just Stop Oil on 14:18 - May 25 with 941 views | J2BLUE |
| Just Stop Oil on 13:58 - May 25 by DanTheMan |
I think you're right in that we might not be able to be.
But as you correctly point out, we should throw the kitchen sink at it. Stop drilling for more fossil fuels, massively increase green / non-fossil fuel energy production, insulation programs, public transport improvements... the list goes on and on.
There's so much we could be doing but until the issues start smacking politicians in the face, I don't think they're going to be that bothered. They're more worried about the appearance they are doing something rather than actually doing it.
I've recommended the channel before but Climate Town on YouTube has some excellent videos on all of the ins and outs on this, and looks at things from a positive perspective when it comes to the future. |
Cheers, I will take a look | |
| |
| Just Stop Oil on 14:20 - May 25 with 938 views | J2BLUE |
| Just Stop Oil on 13:17 - May 25 by itfcjoe |
Physcologically humans are still evolved to look after themselves and their friends/family and any imminent dangers.
Climate change isn't going to just hit and we wake up and the world has ended, it will be adapted to as and when it changes and the major changes are happening around the world in countries with vast populations and nothing we can do will stop that.
There are nearly 3 billion people in China and India now, the population of Nigeria is expected to raise from 200m to 750m over the next 25 years. I'll keep washing out my yoghurt pots, and not making unnecessary journeys - but Just Stop Oil are p155ing in the wind and all their OTT fatalism is doing is ruining their own mental health. We are down an irreversible road, and we will have to innovate our way out of it, it's the only hope |
This is incredibly bleak but I am in near total agreement.
Would all of you be up for limiting the number of children people can have to two? Just throwing it out there... | |
| |
| Just Stop Oil on 14:23 - May 25 with 933 views | itfcjoe |
| Just Stop Oil on 13:33 - May 25 by NthQldITFC |
As you say the world won't just end, but the cascade of events triggered by each other, in the linked environmental:social system won't just be adapted to as and when they happen either. Every wasted second will multiply the damage through the coming years.
We could on an individual basis right now make a pact with ourselves to drastically cut back on our impact on the environment (we all know the sorts of things we need to be selfless enough to give up). It doesn't mean problem gone away, but it would give our kids a fighting chance for the future.
Innovation has a part to play, but at the moment climate change-mitigating innovations look very small and very far away. |
But ultimately, what I can do as an individual is going to make zero difference - I try and do the right things where I can, can talk a good game if I need to, but it's easy for me in my bubble to not do the wrong things because my life is pretty comfortable and I have choice - most people don't. | |
| |
| Just Stop Oil on 14:24 - May 25 with 923 views | GlasgowBlue |
Have they checked with Herbie about the exact definition of vega food colouring?
EDIT. FFS Herbie. Get a sense of humour. [Post edited 25 May 2023 15:12]
|  |
| |
| Just Stop Oil on 14:28 - May 25 with 902 views | itfcjoe |
| Just Stop Oil on 14:20 - May 25 by J2BLUE |
This is incredibly bleak but I am in near total agreement.
Would all of you be up for limiting the number of children people can have to two? Just throwing it out there... |
Population control didn't work in China and wouldn't anywhere else - Malthusian theory probably links in with climate disaster nicely in that there will be a decline in living standards which will cut it right down by famine, war or natural/man made disaster | |
| |
| Just Stop Oil on 14:33 - May 25 with 880 views | DanTheMan |
| Just Stop Oil on 14:23 - May 25 by itfcjoe |
But ultimately, what I can do as an individual is going to make zero difference - I try and do the right things where I can, can talk a good game if I need to, but it's easy for me in my bubble to not do the wrong things because my life is pretty comfortable and I have choice - most people don't. |
You're right that you, individually, can not do a lot. It would be like me trying to raise money for the NHS by paying slightly more taxes by myself, it's just not going to work.
It's only through action at a societal level that anything will get done. The biggest and best thing you can do is vote for people who will do something about it, whilst doing your best to cut down elsewhere.
The whole "your climate footprint" was a brilliant and horrifying piece of marketing from BP to get people to blame themselves instead of looking at them. | |
| |
| Just Stop Oil on 14:36 - May 25 with 847 views | DanTheMan |
| Just Stop Oil on 14:28 - May 25 by itfcjoe |
Population control didn't work in China and wouldn't anywhere else - Malthusian theory probably links in with climate disaster nicely in that there will be a decline in living standards which will cut it right down by famine, war or natural/man made disaster |
It's worth mentioning that population growth as a percentage is on a downward trajectory, not upwards. It's predicted that the population will actually peak relatively soon. | |
| |
| Just Stop Oil on 14:39 - May 25 with 836 views | Ryorry |
Given Rommers vexation at the Derby protesters by Guthrum 24 May 2023 11:02Unfortunately, it is not possible for activists in this country to hit the most appropriate targets (with protests or anything else). Those are the major state polluters and ravagers of the environment, such as China, Brazil (tho hopefully that may improve under Lula) and some of the oil/gas producers ( https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/may/09/mind-boggling-methane-emissions-from-turkmenistan-revealed ). Their impact vastly outweighs ours.
Disrupting events in the UK forces it to the forefront of our thoughts, but has not one whit of influence in those places. There is simply no leverage, even at governmental level. People cannot simply stop buying stuff from China, as that is where everything is made nowadays. It's hard to argue with their refusal to forgo the fruits of industrialisation when the West has already enjoyed them. "Setting an example" is laudable, but won't affect the thinking of the Chinese government or mining company executives in Australia even slightly.
It's an incredibly depressing situation and likely a source of huge frustration for those trying to get some real movement on the climate situation.
I'm not suggesting we give up and do nothing, but there has to be proper direction of the anger - i.e. not against our own people, many of whom are at least conscious of the need to do better, but towards those who are the most significant part of the problem.
|  |
| |
| Just Stop Oil on 14:42 - May 25 with 826 views | itfcjoe |
| Just Stop Oil on 14:33 - May 25 by DanTheMan |
You're right that you, individually, can not do a lot. It would be like me trying to raise money for the NHS by paying slightly more taxes by myself, it's just not going to work.
It's only through action at a societal level that anything will get done. The biggest and best thing you can do is vote for people who will do something about it, whilst doing your best to cut down elsewhere.
The whole "your climate footprint" was a brilliant and horrifying piece of marketing from BP to get people to blame themselves instead of looking at them. |
What is the best we are going to get though? A 'nudge' campaign which doesn't even touch the sides....
The only way out is serious money and time being pushed towards the research and implementation of greener energy etc - it is a capitalist world after all and the only way green energy beats fossil fuels is to be cheaper and better - anything else is for the birds | |
| |
| Just Stop Oil on 14:43 - May 25 with 822 views | nodge_blue |
I just checked and Putin, China, India, gulf states and Trump have all decided that they won't just stop oil.
Shame about the garden - though I suspect the designers will be magnanimous enough to acknowledge it for being a well intentioned if misplaced act. A lot of those gardens are weed friendly, insect promoting and trying to show us how to save nature and garden in a self sufficient way.
The sad facts as pointed out by Joe is that really we are on course for significant global warming. I think we will be relying on technology at some stage to try and save us.
And in the meantime as I said to herby yesterday, I hope they don't look at ITFC's efforts to grow grass under electric lamps just so that we can play football on the deck. Though maybe we won't need that with our new pitch?? |  |
| |
| Just Stop Oil on 14:47 - May 25 with 803 views | StochesStotasBlewe |
| Just Stop Oil on 14:12 - May 25 by Lord_Lucan |
I largely agree with this.
I was in Guangzhou recently and since the last time I went it is now pretty much joined up to Shenzhen and Donguan making a combined population of around 50 million - basically they have made in effect a super city with a population of England
Then I was in Liuyang, now I have been going to Liuyang every year for 20 years and when I first went it took over 4 hours to get there from Changsha airport, these days it takes 45 mins as they have basically tunnelled through all the mountains, in fact one factory I visited has tripled in size because they basically cut 25% of a mountain away and extended their premises into it. The whole city has unrecognisably changed, they have even turned the city round 90 degrees to face in the other direction.
What I am saying is, they are unstoppable - and India have taken them over, much to the annoyance of The Chinese as they genuinely see it as a race.
I have my worries about climate change and I genuinely looked out of my balcony one night and thought "This is barmy" - in a way it kind of makes the Stop Oil lot look fecking clueless if you want my honest opinion. |
The problem in part then is a rapidly increasing population that eventually won’t be sustainable and appears to be a topic that is increasingly overlooked or deliberately ignored.
More land and natural resources needed that are having a massive negative impact on the environment leading to the problems that we are facing and will continue to do so.
No one wants to address this issue though.
Time for a grown up debate about how to slow down the birth rate, although I suspect in time nature will find its own way. |  |
| We have no village green, or a shop.
It's very, very quiet.
I can walk to the pub. |
| |
| |
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
