| Banter or Hate? 09:09 - Jul 12 with 11142 views | CovJet |
Dear Ipswich Town supporters,
I’m a Wolves fan — coming in peace and hoping you can help me out…
But before I continue, let me congratulate you on an amazing season. I’m sure the Canaries are a tad nervous!
I’m a senior Lecturer at Birmingham City University, writing academic papers as part of my PhD portfolio (Koln University). My research has a focus on the language used by football fans at games — for some people it’s ‘banter’ and for others, it has become a ‘hate crime’. It is a complex, emotive issue.
I want to find out what you think of the language used — I want you to be honest.
The questionnaire is entirely voluntary and completely anonymous. I will only use the data I obtain for academic papers and once complete I will share the data with you on this forum. I have ethical approval granted from Koln University and approval from your administrator for this forum.
I will be comparing your answers with those from supporters of Arsenal, Watford, Wolves, Plymouth and Newcastle.
The questionnaire should only take you a couple of minutes and I would like to thank you in advance. Here is the link:
https://questionpro.com/t/AX3LcZyJou
Kind regards,
Peter Evans
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| Banter or Hate? on 13:26 - Jul 12 with 1658 views | BigCommon |
| Banter or Hate? on 12:54 - Jul 12 by jayessess |
A logic that would also merrily justify pretty much any homophobia (as well as any racism and sexism).
Not really true either, you can be stigmatised and shamed by others, regardless of how you feel about yourself. |
That's a personal mental issue, imo. And doesn't affect the majority of the population. Who can happily poke fun at one another, for a laugh...
I speak from experience.. I dont expect others to tailor their lifestyles to suit my issues..
I dont want to upset anyone, or argue with anyone. In fact, I prefer differences of opinion. Rather than a blinkered life where we all agree, all of the time... |  | | |
| Banter or Hate? on 13:50 - Jul 12 with 1635 views | jayessess |
| Banter or Hate? on 13:26 - Jul 12 by BigCommon |
That's a personal mental issue, imo. And doesn't affect the majority of the population. Who can happily poke fun at one another, for a laugh...
I speak from experience.. I dont expect others to tailor their lifestyles to suit my issues..
I dont want to upset anyone, or argue with anyone. In fact, I prefer differences of opinion. Rather than a blinkered life where we all agree, all of the time... |
Again, why wouldn't throwing a banana a John Barnes be just "a personal mental issue"? or just yelling "f*****g p**fs" at a gay couple in the street? What's the difference?
When someone sings/says something designed to shame or stigmatise, it isn't the responsibility of the target to feel OK about it. Ironically, in that situation you're the one that's demanding others tailor their lifestyle. You have to adjust the way you feel about something so I'm not made to feel bad about singing funny songs about it. [Post edited 12 Jul 2023 14:08]
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| Banter or Hate? on 14:03 - Jul 12 with 1618 views | blueasfook |
| Banter or Hate? on 12:47 - Jul 12 by BigCommon |
Herbivore, see you've down voted me twice for my opinions....
Is that classed as "vote shaming"..?
I can tolerate that. I won't downvote you for your opinions or attempt to "cancel" you with the ignore feature.. |
He does that to everyone dont worry. He likes a good downvote does Herbs. |  |
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| Banter or Hate? on 14:04 - Jul 12 with 1615 views | blueasfook |
| Banter or Hate? on 10:30 - Jul 12 by Blueschev |
With a name like Leaky I'm not so sure she would. |
Under-rated post. Deserves more upvotes. | |
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| Banter or Hate? on 14:10 - Jul 12 with 1605 views | Cheltenham_Blue |
| Banter or Hate? on 12:38 - Jul 12 by jayessess |
Increasingly rare though. Virtually impossible to get a first academic post without one in most fields. |
Yes. I know.
But not unheard of. |  |
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| Banter or Hate? on 14:16 - Jul 12 with 1590 views | giant_stow |
| Banter or Hate? on 11:34 - Jul 12 by Cotty |
You're a senior lecturer but don't have a PhD? Eh?! |
Thats nothing - I helped a senior lecturer get his phd as a paid gig. |  |
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| Banter or Hate? on 14:19 - Jul 12 with 1584 views | BigCommon |
| Banter or Hate? on 13:50 - Jul 12 by jayessess |
Again, why wouldn't throwing a banana a John Barnes be just "a personal mental issue"? or just yelling "f*****g p**fs" at a gay couple in the street? What's the difference?
When someone sings/says something designed to shame or stigmatise, it isn't the responsibility of the target to feel OK about it. Ironically, in that situation you're the one that's demanding others tailor their lifestyle. You have to adjust the way you feel about something so I'm not made to feel bad about singing funny songs about it. [Post edited 12 Jul 2023 14:08]
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You're comparing apples to oranges when you take things to the extreme like that...
Of course you shouldn't have to tollerate the level of abuse that you've just outlined.. But that level of abuse was not used in the survey... The "banter or hate" title of the OP, I thought, was referring to the examples in the survey?
If someone says to me, "you've put on a bit of weight fella", I'm not going to accuse them of calling me a big fat slobby c-nt, and cry about it,...
Sounds to me that you are trying to justify your own views by using extremes, because you find it difficult to tollerate a compromise...
Of course, that is just my opinion, based on your posts on this subject... I'm not asking you to agree.... | | | |
| Banter or Hate? on 14:46 - Jul 12 with 1558 views | Kropotkin123 |
| Banter or Hate? on 10:09 - Jul 12 by Dyland |
As a middle aged sometime snowflake sometime gammon English honky (that may be offensive, sorry Philav) I find it hard to decide. "We can see you holding hands" always seemed pretty innocuous and jocular, to ME (key point here). But that was thirty years ago, and I would never sing it now, nor have I heard it sang at PR in yonks. I'd still not call it a hate crime though... and I guess context and tone plays a part in what actions should be taken against people singing that, and other potentially offensive chants.
Nuanced, innit? |
I opted for hate crime and eject. Though I think hate crime is too strong. I don't think those who would sing those songs are think "I hate this group". But I don't agree that it is banter. I think it excludes a certain section of our supporters/society, and the people singing it need to change.
I also agree with the person who said we are becoming too punitive. Society takes time to change and prosecution in these cases is more likely to lead to people forming resentment and hate towards the group than reforming them. I'm more interested in people changing their behaviour than creating a hostile environment. |  |
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| Banter or Hate? on 14:50 - Jul 12 with 1549 views | jayessess |
| Banter or Hate? on 14:19 - Jul 12 by BigCommon |
You're comparing apples to oranges when you take things to the extreme like that...
Of course you shouldn't have to tollerate the level of abuse that you've just outlined.. But that level of abuse was not used in the survey... The "banter or hate" title of the OP, I thought, was referring to the examples in the survey?
If someone says to me, "you've put on a bit of weight fella", I'm not going to accuse them of calling me a big fat slobby c-nt, and cry about it,...
Sounds to me that you are trying to justify your own views by using extremes, because you find it difficult to tollerate a compromise...
Of course, that is just my opinion, based on your posts on this subject... I'm not asking you to agree.... |
The point of the examples is that they're basically indefensible behaviour to anyone who isn't a total bastard, but you could nevertheless equally apply your logic that: feelings of shame only come from within, that you shouldn't be upset by random people singing things outside a few beers, that feeling ashamed or stigmatised by others is a personal mental issue.
There's a line above which you accept none of those things are actually true, that people can shame and stigmatise others, that they can do that even when they're just random people singing/shouting things outside a few beers. | |
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| Banter or Hate? on 14:56 - Jul 12 with 1532 views | Radlett_blue |
| Banter or Hate? on 13:50 - Jul 12 by jayessess |
Again, why wouldn't throwing a banana a John Barnes be just "a personal mental issue"? or just yelling "f*****g p**fs" at a gay couple in the street? What's the difference?
When someone sings/says something designed to shame or stigmatise, it isn't the responsibility of the target to feel OK about it. Ironically, in that situation you're the one that's demanding others tailor their lifestyle. You have to adjust the way you feel about something so I'm not made to feel bad about singing funny songs about it. [Post edited 12 Jul 2023 14:08]
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I think the big issue with "football banter" is that many seem to think it's OK to shout & chant things that would probably get you arrested (or punched) if you said them to someone on the street. Football has long tolerated such behaviour, largely because of the "safety in numbers"/"mob rule" argument. If a sufficiently large number of people are chanting something offensive, dealing with it isn't easy. |  |
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| Banter or Hate? on 15:46 - Jul 12 with 1496 views | BigCommon |
| Banter or Hate? on 14:50 - Jul 12 by jayessess |
The point of the examples is that they're basically indefensible behaviour to anyone who isn't a total bastard, but you could nevertheless equally apply your logic that: feelings of shame only come from within, that you shouldn't be upset by random people singing things outside a few beers, that feeling ashamed or stigmatised by others is a personal mental issue.
There's a line above which you accept none of those things are actually true, that people can shame and stigmatise others, that they can do that even when they're just random people singing/shouting things outside a few beers. |
Thanks for you opinion. | | | |
| Banter or Hate? on 13:37 - Jul 13 with 1403 views | CovJet |
| Banter or Hate? on 11:34 - Jul 12 by Cotty |
You're a senior lecturer but don't have a PhD? Eh?! |
Correct. It is not a prerequisite, but I do have 20 years in industry as well. | | | |
| Banter or Hate? on 15:44 - Jul 13 with 1373 views | Ryorry |
| Banter or Hate? on 10:02 - Jul 12 by CovJet |
Agreed. It will be extended to include other areas. I am restricted by the number of replies per questionnaire. The 2nd questionnaire will ask exactly the same questions to fans of other clubs. Target is now 500 responses. Thank you for your time, much appreciated. |
The question on what you hear at your home ground is also flawed, in that some of us ITFC fans who are based in the north *never* get to go to home games, and there is no 'N/A/' option for that question. (I just ticked "don't know"). |  |
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| Banter or Hate? on 15:59 - Jul 13 with 1353 views | MattinLondon |
| Banter or Hate? on 12:41 - Jul 12 by BigCommon |
Feeling ashamed of yourself, comes from within.. Not because some random whose had a few beers sings a chant... |
If someone hears the same comments directed at them often, then after a while the effects that those comments have on a person is going to make them ashamed.
It’s like that old saying ‘Sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me’ - that’s bollox as well. |  | | |
| Banter or Hate? on 16:03 - Jul 13 with 1350 views | SouperJim |
Thought provoking questionnaire.
I answered "banter" to both chants on the basis that I believe that people who sing such things do it because they consider it to be banter. I don't think they intend to commit a hate crime or intend to marginalise anybody.
It's actually a really difficult question to answer because in a sense I feel it's both. I would probably consider banter to be closer to my own feelings, however, if I was gay I may well feel differently. |  |
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| Banter or Hate? on 16:06 - Jul 13 with 1347 views | Cotty |
| Banter or Hate? on 12:33 - Jul 12 by Cheltenham_Blue |
You don’t need a PhD to be a senior lecturer. Just some management responsibilities.
I was an SL for years before I got my PhD |
You certainly do at my university, and many others! SL would normally mean you have at least 6+ years post PhD. |  | | |
| Banter or Hate? on 16:08 - Jul 13 with 1335 views | Cotty |
| Banter or Hate? on 13:37 - Jul 13 by CovJet |
Correct. It is not a prerequisite, but I do have 20 years in industry as well. |
Ah, I suspect the conventions are very different in different areas then. Certainly in the physical sciences, PhD is a pre-requisite for almost all academic jobs. | | | |
| Banter or Hate? on 20:47 - Jul 13 with 1275 views | Bex75 |
| Banter or Hate? on 10:28 - Jul 12 by Guthrum |
My thoughts are that some of the suggested responses are a little blunt. Rather than simply ignoring homophobic abuse as "banter" or excluding fans who do it, would be better to educate beforehand, thus preventing the problem from happening at all.
People learn to be homophobic/racist, therefore it can also be unlearnt and it is better to do that before it gets to the stage of public abuse.
I mean by a process of social pressure (from other fans) and acclimatisation (removing any sense of "otherness"). Stadium announcements are, IMO, only useful for covering the club's responsibilities. Rarely listened to and more likely to provoke bad behaviour from those doing it primarily for the transgressive thrill. |
Agreed, people wont change until a majority of people around them show them that behaviour is not acceptable.
A group of fans around the 'chanter' should give them a bit of jip, show them up in public and that will soon shut them up!!
That happened a couple of seasons ago, not anything racist or homophobic, but a guy kept going on and on overly negatively and moaning all the time about the players etc, game after game. Then someone just stood up, turned round and shouted 'will you just shut the f up and show some support', followed by cheers from all the fans around him. Never heard a peep ever again from him after that!
Saying that whilst there are clearly sexist, racist, homophobic and other predjudiced chants that are definitely unacceptable, its a shame that we are all becoming so PC that we can't take the mickey and laugh at ourselves anymore.
A 'She fell over' chant could be regarded as sexist but I don't go and cry 'like a little girl' in the corner about it! Its just banter 😉😂
Stadium announcements? I think we can see what effect those have after the end of season pitch invasion.... | | | |
| Banter or Hate? on 04:33 - Jul 14 with 1212 views | PhuketPete |
I found this survey hard to answer. Yes the chants are offensive to a degree. After all the whole point is to wind the opposition up. Mostly they only get “sung” at the away team right? And I’ll bet most who chant them in the ground wouldn’t do it walking down the street or in a pub. (Maybe another valid question to ask would have been “have you heard these chants outside a football ground”)? So my view it’s hard to characterise such chants. It all depends on the circumstances. Some could be illegal and warrant action. Others not. Whatever - these chants are not in the same league as the vile racist stuff used on the continent.
It’s not the same but I remember that shortly after Peter Shilton was caught having an affair, he was at PR. The 45 mins he was in front of the North Stand were some of funniest minutes I ever had at a match. I still remember the words to some chants about “Tina”. As I recall he let in two goals and we in NS (SBR) believed it was down to us. That’s sums up the whole point of banter. To get under the skin and influence the result. | | | |
| Banter or Hate? on 09:15 - Jul 14 with 1175 views | Reus30 |
Done from me. Certainly come back and share the data, will be interesting to see. |  | | |
| Banter or Hate? on 12:32 - Jul 14 with 1142 views | BlueBadger |
| Banter or Hate? on 12:23 - Jul 12 by BigCommon |
I totally understand your thinking...But I find it very extreme.. If we are going to live in a tolerant society, in terms of gender equality. Then the "hetro-phobes" are going to have to find some compromise, too, imo.... Then we can all, harmlessly and inoffensively ,laugh at each other, and ourselves, and get on with life..
Imo, just my opinion. Racism is a completely different subject. |
'Heterophobes'.
Christ alive. [Post edited 14 Jul 2023 12:32]
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| Banter or Hate? on 12:33 - Jul 14 with 1139 views | BlueBadger |
| Banter or Hate? on 11:56 - Jul 12 by BigCommon |
Totally agree on the monkey chanting. But that wasn't on the survey... |
So basically, you're cool with homophobia but not racism? | |
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| Banter or Hate? on 12:38 - Jul 14 with 1125 views | Herbivore |
| Banter or Hate? on 12:32 - Jul 14 by BlueBadger |
'Heterophobes'.
Christ alive. [Post edited 14 Jul 2023 12:32]
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Yeah, I winced. |  |
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| Banter or Hate? on 13:03 - Jul 14 with 1095 views | BigCommon |
| Banter or Hate? on 12:33 - Jul 14 by BlueBadger |
So basically, you're cool with homophobia but not racism? |
How did you come to that conclusion?
Just said they are different subjects..
Didn't say I liked either.. | | | |
| Banter or Hate? on 13:07 - Jul 14 with 1089 views | Herbivore |
| Banter or Hate? on 13:03 - Jul 14 by BigCommon |
How did you come to that conclusion?
Just said they are different subjects..
Didn't say I liked either.. |
What do you see as being the difference? Both are forms of discrimination and prejudice based on protected characteristics of individuals. | |
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