| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 03:20 - Oct 9 with 8612 views | Zapers |
Don't worry, someone will be along soon to justify it. |  | |  |
| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 06:49 - Oct 9 with 8474 views | DJR |
Equally sad to read that two Israelis were killed by a policemen in Eqypt, leading Israel’s national security council to say its citizens should avoid going abroad and those in Egypt should leave. [Post edited 9 Oct 2023 6:58]
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| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 06:50 - Oct 9 with 8460 views | BlueBadger |
| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 03:20 - Oct 9 by Zapers |
Don't worry, someone will be along soon to justify it. |
...just not as quickly as someone turning up for a pre-emptive dig. |  |
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| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 08:20 - Oct 9 with 8218 views | redrickstuhaart |
Indeed. Its not a matter of "justifying" anything. However, the two parties are pretty much as bad as one another in many respects. The main asymetry is in power and wealth.
Decades of building settlements on other people's land, against all international law, is going to lead to martyrs and desperate, angry, hateful people. The international community has turned a blind eye to Israel's behaviour.
It was not long ago that Israel stormed into palestinian territory with their military.
Often, it is worth considering who has the power to cease a conflict. Russia can end Ukraine war by getting out of Ukraine. I wonder if Israel could begin an end to the ongoing carnage in the middle east by ceasing settlements, and removing those that have been imposed over the last 10 years or so.
None of this means that I think that what has happened ove rthe last couple of days is good, fair or justifiable. It is, though, entirely predictable. [Post edited 9 Oct 2023 8:21]
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| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 09:01 - Oct 9 with 8130 views | WeWereZombies |
| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 08:20 - Oct 9 by redrickstuhaart |
Indeed. Its not a matter of "justifying" anything. However, the two parties are pretty much as bad as one another in many respects. The main asymetry is in power and wealth.
Decades of building settlements on other people's land, against all international law, is going to lead to martyrs and desperate, angry, hateful people. The international community has turned a blind eye to Israel's behaviour.
It was not long ago that Israel stormed into palestinian territory with their military.
Often, it is worth considering who has the power to cease a conflict. Russia can end Ukraine war by getting out of Ukraine. I wonder if Israel could begin an end to the ongoing carnage in the middle east by ceasing settlements, and removing those that have been imposed over the last 10 years or so.
None of this means that I think that what has happened ove rthe last couple of days is good, fair or justifiable. It is, though, entirely predictable. [Post edited 9 Oct 2023 8:21]
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This is all, as far as I can from second hand information tell, true. But, and this has been told to me by a (i think) lapsed Muslim friend who has studied in Jerusalem, the most ardent settlers are not long resident in Israel. They are trying to carve out a new life because they could no longer cope with antisemitism in Eastern Europe. In doing so they transgress against another almost landless people but the pump for these terrorist atrocities comes from another set of more isolated but just as virulent set of hate crimes. Important to remember that it is not all Eastern Europeans who act like that and that it does not just affect Jews but Muslims and Romanies too. |  |
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| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 09:05 - Oct 9 with 8114 views | Zapers |
| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 06:50 - Oct 9 by BlueBadger |
...just not as quickly as someone turning up for a pre-emptive dig. |
But not at you, so MYOB, for once. | | | |
| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 09:06 - Oct 9 with 8102 views | GlasgowBlue |
Imagine playing top trumps with peoples lives. |  |
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| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 09:17 - Oct 9 with 8059 views | MattinLondon |
| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 09:06 - Oct 9 by GlasgowBlue |
Imagine playing top trumps with peoples lives. |
When it comes to this ‘high profile’ conflict that is always in the news. Someone always feels the need to look down below from their moral high ground. On both sides, always the same. |  | | |
| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 09:19 - Oct 9 with 8046 views | WeWereZombies |
| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 09:06 - Oct 9 by GlasgowBlue |
Imagine playing top trumps with peoples lives. |
Pragmatically that is what leaders sometimes have to do. Should you allow innocent civilians of a nearby country to be bombed by your enemy if that allows you to conceal that you have the technology to detect their aircraft ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_problem | |
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| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 09:23 - Oct 9 with 8008 views | Darth_Koont |
| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 03:20 - Oct 9 by Zapers |
Don't worry, someone will be along soon to justify it. |
Nobody has justified it. The attacks are absolutely horrific.
However, the “why” is inextricably linked to the ongoing and underlying situation. So in any discussion about this (and let’s be under no illusions whatsoever that the lack of debate/discussion has made that ongoing situation much worse) it’s going to move beyond the attacks themselves. |  |
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| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 10:10 - Oct 9 with 7897 views | GlasgowBlue |
| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 09:23 - Oct 9 by Darth_Koont |
Nobody has justified it. The attacks are absolutely horrific.
However, the “why” is inextricably linked to the ongoing and underlying situation. So in any discussion about this (and let’s be under no illusions whatsoever that the lack of debate/discussion has made that ongoing situation much worse) it’s going to move beyond the attacks themselves. |
Let’s not kid ourselves that if there was by some miracle a peaceful two state agreement tomorrow, that Hamas would not continue its Jihad against Jews in the Middle East. Its charter specifically calls for that.
“Peaceinitiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement... Those conferences are no more than a means to appoint the infidels as arbitrators in the lands of Islam... There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility." (Article 13)
Hamas and Hezbollah are no different to ISIS or any other Islamic fundamentalist terrorist group. They are merely using the Israel/Palestine situation as a means to an end. With innocent people on both sides losing their lives as a result. | |
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| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 10:12 - Oct 9 with 7895 views | bournemouthblue |
Absolutely horrific, I have to admit to being ignorant to this story but what caused the escalation in violence, the number of deaths seem to be off the chart? |  |
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| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 10:25 - Oct 9 with 7848 views | WeWereZombies |
| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 10:10 - Oct 9 by GlasgowBlue |
Let’s not kid ourselves that if there was by some miracle a peaceful two state agreement tomorrow, that Hamas would not continue its Jihad against Jews in the Middle East. Its charter specifically calls for that.
“Peaceinitiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement... Those conferences are no more than a means to appoint the infidels as arbitrators in the lands of Islam... There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility." (Article 13)
Hamas and Hezbollah are no different to ISIS or any other Islamic fundamentalist terrorist group. They are merely using the Israel/Palestine situation as a means to an end. With innocent people on both sides losing their lives as a result. |
Hamas and Hezbollah might not stop their Jihad but popular support, or more likely tolerance, of their movements would be greatly reduced by a workable diplomatic solution. And their recruitment networks could collapse, which would effectively reduce their capabilities. | |
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| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 10:32 - Oct 9 with 7808 views | GlasgowBlue |
| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 10:25 - Oct 9 by WeWereZombies |
Hamas and Hezbollah might not stop their Jihad but popular support, or more likely tolerance, of their movements would be greatly reduced by a workable diplomatic solution. And their recruitment networks could collapse, which would effectively reduce their capabilities. |
Do you honestly believe that an innocent Palestine would no longer be run by Hamas and bankrolled by Iran? They will still be murdering gays. They will still be waging a proxy pay war against Israel on behalf of Iran. [Post edited 9 Oct 2023 11:43]
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| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 10:38 - Oct 9 with 7768 views | WeWereZombies |
| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 10:32 - Oct 9 by GlasgowBlue |
Do you honestly believe that an innocent Palestine would no longer be run by Hamas and bankrolled by Iran? They will still be murdering gays. They will still be waging a proxy pay war against Israel on behalf of Iran. [Post edited 9 Oct 2023 11:43]
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Strange as it may seem to you there are Palestinians who just want a quiet life. But it has to be said that it is a very long road to any forseeable peace. There again it has been a long road from the Balfour Agreement. They have become pawns in the games of others for the most part. Difficult, but try to imagine everyone in England being hiked out of the land and deposited into any other country that would have them (don't bank on it being Tunisia though.) What pitfalls and rigours would befall them ? | |
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| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 10:42 - Oct 9 with 7733 views | Blueschev |
| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 10:10 - Oct 9 by GlasgowBlue |
Let’s not kid ourselves that if there was by some miracle a peaceful two state agreement tomorrow, that Hamas would not continue its Jihad against Jews in the Middle East. Its charter specifically calls for that.
“Peaceinitiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement... Those conferences are no more than a means to appoint the infidels as arbitrators in the lands of Islam... There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility." (Article 13)
Hamas and Hezbollah are no different to ISIS or any other Islamic fundamentalist terrorist group. They are merely using the Israel/Palestine situation as a means to an end. With innocent people on both sides losing their lives as a result. |
There will never be a two state solution. Israel will never return to the pre-67 borders. Were they to do so their border with the West Bank would be in parts just 10 miles wide from the Med, with Palestine in an elevated position. They also control all of the land, the Palestinians have nothing to barter with.
Since its inception, Ertz Israel has been the long term aim of every Israeli government. They're never going to hand back land they're ideologically committed to retaining. |  | | |
| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 10:53 - Oct 9 with 7669 views | Darth_Koont |
| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 10:10 - Oct 9 by GlasgowBlue |
Let’s not kid ourselves that if there was by some miracle a peaceful two state agreement tomorrow, that Hamas would not continue its Jihad against Jews in the Middle East. Its charter specifically calls for that.
“Peaceinitiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement... Those conferences are no more than a means to appoint the infidels as arbitrators in the lands of Islam... There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility." (Article 13)
Hamas and Hezbollah are no different to ISIS or any other Islamic fundamentalist terrorist group. They are merely using the Israel/Palestine situation as a means to an end. With innocent people on both sides losing their lives as a result. |
You take away the underlying injustice then there’s little room or scope for the fundamentalist approach.
Extremists on both sides have come to the fore because it’s been allowed to develop into an extreme situation on the ground. | |
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| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 11:41 - Oct 9 with 7526 views | lowhouseblue |
| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 10:32 - Oct 9 by GlasgowBlue |
Do you honestly believe that an innocent Palestine would no longer be run by Hamas and bankrolled by Iran? They will still be murdering gays. They will still be waging a proxy pay war against Israel on behalf of Iran. [Post edited 9 Oct 2023 11:43]
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start the week on radio 4 this morning about israel / palestine is worth a listen.
obviously criticism of isreal is entirely legitimate. but even though it's israel it does still need to be balanced - and the same criteria and tests need to be applied to others in the same way. on that basis the reluctance of some people to condemn hamas - either on the basis of their history or their present horrendous brutality - is deeply concerning. why will some not condemn them as brutal terrorists and disown them. it doesn't alter the just cause of the palestinian people but it would be honest. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 11:47 - Oct 9 with 7468 views | nodge_blue |
This has so many echos with the Northern Ireland conflict - but on steroids.
At some point both sides have to acknowledge they've done things they shouldn't have as the only way forward. Constantly meeting fire with fire hasn't worked for over sixty years. |  |
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| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 11:58 - Oct 9 with 7396 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 09:06 - Oct 9 by GlasgowBlue |
Imagine playing top trumps with peoples lives. |
Imagine you being so stupid as to interpret it that way! |  |
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| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 12:25 - Oct 9 with 7320 views | jayessess |
| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 11:41 - Oct 9 by lowhouseblue |
start the week on radio 4 this morning about israel / palestine is worth a listen.
obviously criticism of isreal is entirely legitimate. but even though it's israel it does still need to be balanced - and the same criteria and tests need to be applied to others in the same way. on that basis the reluctance of some people to condemn hamas - either on the basis of their history or their present horrendous brutality - is deeply concerning. why will some not condemn them as brutal terrorists and disown them. it doesn't alter the just cause of the palestinian people but it would be honest. |
I never really know what the purpose of such calls to condemn are supposed to do, other than enforce a sort of decorum in British political life?
I condemn Hamas for horrifying violence against civilians. I also condemn the Israeli state for maintaining a decades long illegal occupation, enacted through everyday violence and oppression. I'm not sure anyone in Britain making either statement does anything and I'm also not sure why in public life the first statement seems to be a requirement and the second statement a sort of optional opinion, or something that marks you out as a radical even.
Are they not both statements about the inviolability of human rights and opposition to violence? [Post edited 9 Oct 2023 12:37]
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| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 12:45 - Oct 9 with 7223 views | lowhouseblue |
| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 12:25 - Oct 9 by jayessess |
I never really know what the purpose of such calls to condemn are supposed to do, other than enforce a sort of decorum in British political life?
I condemn Hamas for horrifying violence against civilians. I also condemn the Israeli state for maintaining a decades long illegal occupation, enacted through everyday violence and oppression. I'm not sure anyone in Britain making either statement does anything and I'm also not sure why in public life the first statement seems to be a requirement and the second statement a sort of optional opinion, or something that marks you out as a radical even.
Are they not both statements about the inviolability of human rights and opposition to violence? [Post edited 9 Oct 2023 12:37]
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i think the point is that when you are thinking about peace and a negotiated settlement you need to be realisitc about the parties involved. you can't understand the israeli position without being honest about the true nature of hamas, and vice versa. at a human level double standards are also just a bad thing. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 13:05 - Oct 9 with 7155 views | jayessess |
| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 12:45 - Oct 9 by lowhouseblue |
i think the point is that when you are thinking about peace and a negotiated settlement you need to be realisitc about the parties involved. you can't understand the israeli position without being honest about the true nature of hamas, and vice versa. at a human level double standards are also just a bad thing. |
Is the double standard here not precisely the one that I've outlined?
Both the Israeli military and Hamas engage in indiscriminate violence against civilians. But there's no ongoing requirement in British public life to understand the former type of violence in any way. You're free to regard it as just a bit regrettable or excessive but nevertheless no real impediment to normal relations with the Israeli state. You're even free to regard it as fundamentally legitimate and justified. You can hold any of those positions whilst barely being questioned about it, even if you hold high political office. The same certainly isn't true the other way round.
There's only a very partial insistence that we need to be honest about the true nature of violence. | |
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| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 13:14 - Oct 9 with 7113 views | lowhouseblue |
| 260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 13:05 - Oct 9 by jayessess |
Is the double standard here not precisely the one that I've outlined?
Both the Israeli military and Hamas engage in indiscriminate violence against civilians. But there's no ongoing requirement in British public life to understand the former type of violence in any way. You're free to regard it as just a bit regrettable or excessive but nevertheless no real impediment to normal relations with the Israeli state. You're even free to regard it as fundamentally legitimate and justified. You can hold any of those positions whilst barely being questioned about it, even if you hold high political office. The same certainly isn't true the other way round.
There's only a very partial insistence that we need to be honest about the true nature of violence. |
i think arguing that there is an equivalence between what hamas has down and what the israeli state has done is pretty dishonest and disgraceful. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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