| Debt collection services.... 09:50 - Nov 4 with 2489 views | itfcjoe |
....anyone got any experiences in this and happy to share/help - DMs are open.
Long and short of it is, we gave someone budget figures for some work at their house clearly stated as a Phase 1 from a rough sketch, they then had us finish the works to a further point [phase 2 for ease], whilst also increasing the scope of works numerous times in the phases directly on site. Supplying structural and electrical drawings directly to operatives when on tight deadlines and not asking for a re price.
All obvious 'extra work' type things - re skim ceilings and walls, supply and fit bespoke double doors not previously mentioned, move MCB and build bespoke cupboards with doors supplied by them to do so, do extra electrical works in a barn, supply a skip to other area of site where they were having construction done etc. And these are customers who have had masses of work done and live in a house with associated barns etc and aren't wet behind the ears—they’ve been around the block and understand what things cost.
We've billed them and the bloke has come back and said that the original budget figure should stand for all the works, despite clearly saying it wasn't, and he won't pay any more than that. Originally they had said there were a few extra works but now is obstinately ignoring everything, and when I look at him online he has history with the SRA re what looks like a fraud where he was struck off.
So need to consider best options - just the slow legal process with a solicitor, or straight to a debt collection service. Or will a debt collection not be valid because it is technically disputed debt?
Any advice gratefully received; as feel like we've been set up here |  |
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| Debt collection services.... on 09:54 - Nov 4 with 1941 views | FrimleyBlue |
By the sounds of it Joe a debt collection service won't make him pay. I'd imagine it would go all the way to the court. I guess it depends on how much is owed to how much time and effort you're happy to put into chasing the funds. |  |
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| Debt collection services.... on 10:01 - Nov 4 with 1913 views | artsbossbeard |
Just for the satisfaction, could you simply go in and take back the bespoke double doors & cupboards anyways?
I hate doing this, as it causes aggravation galore, but every new customer we deal with now has to pass quite a strict vetting process our end & we'll always request a big old lump sum up front on initial trading. |  |
| Please note: prior to hitting the post button, I've double checked for anything that could be construed as "Anti Semitic" and to the best of my knowledge it isn't. Anything deemed to be of a Xenophobic nature is therefore purely accidental or down to your own misconstruing. | | Poll: | Raining in IP8 - shall I get the washing in? |
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| Debt collection services.... on 10:05 - Nov 4 with 1881 views | itfcjoe |
| Debt collection services.... on 09:54 - Nov 4 by FrimleyBlue |
By the sounds of it Joe a debt collection service won't make him pay. I'd imagine it would go all the way to the court. I guess it depends on how much is owed to how much time and effort you're happy to put into chasing the funds. |
Cheers - Is that because debt collection needs to be agreed debts? | |
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| Debt collection services.... on 10:06 - Nov 4 with 1856 views | itfcjoe |
| Debt collection services.... on 10:01 - Nov 4 by artsbossbeard |
Just for the satisfaction, could you simply go in and take back the bespoke double doors & cupboards anyways?
I hate doing this, as it causes aggravation galore, but every new customer we deal with now has to pass quite a strict vetting process our end & we'll always request a big old lump sum up front on initial trading. |
It may come down to that, but know should try and do it the right way first.....but it's just incredibly tough out here at the moment and then this happens.
No doubt partly our fault for being too trusting and trying to do the right things for the customers - but it's hard to describe how angry it makes you to be treated like this | |
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| Debt collection services.... on 10:10 - Nov 4 with 1801 views | artsbossbeard |
| Debt collection services.... on 10:06 - Nov 4 by itfcjoe |
It may come down to that, but know should try and do it the right way first.....but it's just incredibly tough out here at the moment and then this happens.
No doubt partly our fault for being too trusting and trying to do the right things for the customers - but it's hard to describe how angry it makes you to be treated like this |
Absolutely understand the anger.
Trouble is, you know full well that it was always he/she's angle and that's not fair on you.
I get it when things conspire and make things difficult for the customer from other angles but this seems somewhat deliberate.. | |
| Please note: prior to hitting the post button, I've double checked for anything that could be construed as "Anti Semitic" and to the best of my knowledge it isn't. Anything deemed to be of a Xenophobic nature is therefore purely accidental or down to your own misconstruing. | | Poll: | Raining in IP8 - shall I get the washing in? |
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| Debt collection services.... on 10:14 - Nov 4 with 1750 views | FrimleyBlue |
| Debt collection services.... on 10:05 - Nov 4 by itfcjoe |
Cheers - Is that because debt collection needs to be agreed debts? |
As far as im aware from previous experience. The minute a debt is disputed in writing they have to cease collection. They could take on the debt but it appears like the debtee would simply dispute it, cease collection whilst it's being argued.
Imo it would be proudent to seek a solicitor advice into whether the debtee has a right to dispute. If they don't id take them to small claims court. Bypass debt collectors so that you're not missing out on funds that would be take as commission and claim back your court costs.
Obviously these things are costly to begin with and there's never may garentees someone will pay ccjs etc so you've got weigh up really if it's all worth it. | |
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| Debt collection services.... on 10:20 - Nov 4 with 1746 views | itfcjoe |
| Debt collection services.... on 10:14 - Nov 4 by FrimleyBlue |
As far as im aware from previous experience. The minute a debt is disputed in writing they have to cease collection. They could take on the debt but it appears like the debtee would simply dispute it, cease collection whilst it's being argued.
Imo it would be proudent to seek a solicitor advice into whether the debtee has a right to dispute. If they don't id take them to small claims court. Bypass debt collectors so that you're not missing out on funds that would be take as commission and claim back your court costs.
Obviously these things are costly to begin with and there's never may garentees someone will pay ccjs etc so you've got weigh up really if it's all worth it. |
I've probably understated how much this is, so walking away from it isn't an option - and as mentioned these people are, at the very least, incredibly asset-rich....and when I say incredibly, I mean off the scale | |
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| Debt collection services.... on 10:21 - Nov 4 with 1710 views | FrimleyBlue |
| Debt collection services.... on 10:20 - Nov 4 by itfcjoe |
I've probably understated how much this is, so walking away from it isn't an option - and as mentioned these people are, at the very least, incredibly asset-rich....and when I say incredibly, I mean off the scale |
Absolutely go for it mate.
https://share.google/zlrQAE804jMcwSgId
These are my solicitors if of any use | |
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| Debt collection services.... on 11:01 - Nov 4 with 1571 views | wkj |
When a client changes their requirement, you know the scope of that project will change. Not to rub salt in, but why wouldn't you requote the work they're asking for before changing the workflow?
It's the same in the software industry, if you let scope creep come in, you end up paying for that creep if you don't requote and reconfirm.
I hate saying this, but assuming that the customer does, or does not, know something is a recipe for disaster.
Long and short of it, I really don't think the customer is at fault or to blame in this case. [Post edited 4 Nov 11:02]
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| Debt collection services.... on 11:05 - Nov 4 with 1523 views | farkenhell |
Frimmers is right re: debt collection service and disputed debts.
So far as court proceedings are concerned, the first thing to ask is how much does he owe you? If it is £5000 or less, then if defended, the claim will be dealt with under the small claims procedure. This is worth a read - https://www.gov.uk/make-court-claim-for-money. The small claims procedure is designed to take place without legal representation and the costs risks that come with that.
On the other hand, if he owes you more than £5000 (and from my understanding of your post, he may well do if he has refused to pay even the original budget figure) then you would be entitled to claim for reimbursement of your legal costs (solicitors fees end court fees etc) as well as the amount of your bill. However, this won't affect your primary liability to pay your own costs.
Which brings me on to something to bear in mind, namely that even if you obtain a judgment (CCJ), there is no guarantee that you'll recover the money. There are limited means to enforce a CCJ, however if a debtor doesn't have the money, then there is little that you can do. It seems like he has significant assets, but they may be mortgaged to the hilt for example. This isn't intended to be defeatist, but something you should be aware of from the outset.
Like all public services, the civil court service has been massively underfunded for decades, so be prepared for a lengthy wait for court dates etc. Although if you commence proceedings, you'll be entitled to claim interest at 8% on the amount claimed.
From my understanding of your post, this is all about extra works. You'll need to establish that the initial budget figure set out clearly that the works were limited in nature, which shouldn't be difficult (he should be aware of the difference between phase 1 electrics and everything else that followed). You're not stuck with the initial figure despite the absence of a re-price, although you'll need to explain how the extras have been calculated at a reasonable price. It sounds like you have a strong case, albeit from very brief details.
I'm not 100% clear about the SRA history. Are you saying that he used to be a solicitor but has been struck off by his professional body? If so, that's not really relevant (although it might affect his ability to pay - see above).
Finally, if you do receive a payment from the customer, it is important that you don't accept it in full and final payment (if he offers money in this way, say in writing that it is accepted as a payment on account of the whole bill. If he simply makes a payment unconditionally, then you're fine).
Hope this helps. |  | | |
| Debt collection services.... on 11:41 - Nov 4 with 1362 views | lurcher |
Court is the only option. |  | | |
| Debt collection services.... on 11:48 - Nov 4 with 1336 views | mellowblue |
| Debt collection services.... on 09:54 - Nov 4 by FrimleyBlue |
By the sounds of it Joe a debt collection service won't make him pay. I'd imagine it would go all the way to the court. I guess it depends on how much is owed to how much time and effort you're happy to put into chasing the funds. |
Agree, small claims county court. Maybe a solicitors letter first, if they still do that sort of thing. And maybe next time make sure the customer understands any changes to the original quote are fully chargeable. Saves misunderstandings. | | | |
| Debt collection services.... on 12:02 - Nov 4 with 1266 views | Radlett_blue |
What documentary evidence such as emails do you have about the changes in spec? If it's purely verbal, you might not be on strong legal ground.
If the work isn't finished, you could stop work until an acceptable amount has been paid.
If there isn't hard evidence of a contractual debt, a reputable debt collector isn't going to touch your case and they would take out a large chunk of what you feel you are due as their recompense.
Action - or the threat of action - through a County Court might get you a result, but they won't find in your favour without documentary evidence of a contractual claim. |  |
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| Debt collection services.... on 12:16 - Nov 4 with 1212 views | portmanking |
Isn't it incumbent on *you* to re-price the job, the moment that things fall out of initial scope?
Don't mean to be blunt here Joe, but I'm not sure you have much of a leg to stand on. | | | |
| Debt collection services.... on 12:18 - Nov 4 with 1195 views | DJR |
| Debt collection services.... on 11:01 - Nov 4 by wkj |
When a client changes their requirement, you know the scope of that project will change. Not to rub salt in, but why wouldn't you requote the work they're asking for before changing the workflow?
It's the same in the software industry, if you let scope creep come in, you end up paying for that creep if you don't requote and reconfirm.
I hate saying this, but assuming that the customer does, or does not, know something is a recipe for disaster.
Long and short of it, I really don't think the customer is at fault or to blame in this case. [Post edited 4 Nov 11:02]
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That's very harsh on Joe, and far too lenient on the customer.
And I came across this on a legal website.
"In circumstances where you instruct the builder to carry out additional works, we suggest you carefully document these in writing, as well as the price for any additional works once agreed. In the absence of an agreement over the price, your builders will be entitled to be paid a reasonable price for their services, which may come down to fact." [Post edited 4 Nov 12:23]
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| Debt collection services.... on 12:22 - Nov 4 with 1171 views | portmanking |
| Debt collection services.... on 12:18 - Nov 4 by DJR |
That's very harsh on Joe, and far too lenient on the customer.
And I came across this on a legal website.
"In circumstances where you instruct the builder to carry out additional works, we suggest you carefully document these in writing, as well as the price for any additional works once agreed. In the absence of an agreement over the price, your builders will be entitled to be paid a reasonable price for their services, which may come down to fact." [Post edited 4 Nov 12:23]
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Very harsh, but unfortunately true.
Unless it's explicitly documented in writing that additional works fall out of scope and require additional billing, why should the customer be expected to pay more (even if they know it's probably the fairest option)? | | | |
| Debt collection services.... on 12:24 - Nov 4 with 1141 views | DJR |
| Debt collection services.... on 12:22 - Nov 4 by portmanking |
Very harsh, but unfortunately true.
Unless it's explicitly documented in writing that additional works fall out of scope and require additional billing, why should the customer be expected to pay more (even if they know it's probably the fairest option)? |
That's not what the last sentence of the extract I quoted says. | | | |
| Debt collection services.... on 12:29 - Nov 4 with 1093 views | FrimleyBlue |
| Debt collection services.... on 12:22 - Nov 4 by portmanking |
Very harsh, but unfortunately true.
Unless it's explicitly documented in writing that additional works fall out of scope and require additional billing, why should the customer be expected to pay more (even if they know it's probably the fairest option)? |
Not quite
What the solicitor will look at is was there an obvious change to the original contract, and did the customer accept these changes.
Couple of ways of deeming this.
1 - any form of communication - txts, emails, conversations witnessed
2 - if no form of communication can be evidenced, before and after photo's, were the jobs stopped by the customer at any point, if not then they have deemed to accepted this additional works and therfore the builder should be compensated for that work..
Obviously a solicitor will explain that better than me, but it's definately not just a simple case that joe HAD to have everything in contract form.
Maybe for next time Joe can go down this line to protect himself further [Post edited 4 Nov 12:30]
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| Debt collection services.... on 12:33 - Nov 4 with 1063 views | DJR |
| Debt collection services.... on 12:29 - Nov 4 by FrimleyBlue |
Not quite
What the solicitor will look at is was there an obvious change to the original contract, and did the customer accept these changes.
Couple of ways of deeming this.
1 - any form of communication - txts, emails, conversations witnessed
2 - if no form of communication can be evidenced, before and after photo's, were the jobs stopped by the customer at any point, if not then they have deemed to accepted this additional works and therfore the builder should be compensated for that work..
Obviously a solicitor will explain that better than me, but it's definately not just a simple case that joe HAD to have everything in contract form.
Maybe for next time Joe can go down this line to protect himself further [Post edited 4 Nov 12:30]
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It seems to me that the contrast between the works completed and those set out in the original quote will also come into play.
But for future reference, payments on account may not be a bad idea.
We had building work done a couple of years ago and got fairly regular interim bills from the builder. [Post edited 4 Nov 12:36]
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| Debt collection services.... on 12:33 - Nov 4 with 1060 views | SuperBobbyPetta |
Small claims court sounds like your best route from what you’ve said. It’s relatively straightforward and inexpensive and if he doesn’t ‘defend’ the claim then he’ll face a CCJ to make the award. | | | |
| Debt collection services.... on 12:40 - Nov 4 with 1024 views | football |
I dont know much about debt collection so shall defer to those with may more knowledge than me, but just wanted to wish you the best of luck. Really grates me that people do stuff like that - it's a really low thing to do when you have provided a service they asked for. | | | |
| Debt collection services.... on 12:41 - Nov 4 with 1006 views | portmanking |
| Debt collection services.... on 12:29 - Nov 4 by FrimleyBlue |
Not quite
What the solicitor will look at is was there an obvious change to the original contract, and did the customer accept these changes.
Couple of ways of deeming this.
1 - any form of communication - txts, emails, conversations witnessed
2 - if no form of communication can be evidenced, before and after photo's, were the jobs stopped by the customer at any point, if not then they have deemed to accepted this additional works and therfore the builder should be compensated for that work..
Obviously a solicitor will explain that better than me, but it's definately not just a simple case that joe HAD to have everything in contract form.
Maybe for next time Joe can go down this line to protect himself further [Post edited 4 Nov 12:30]
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Hopefully some communication is documented so that Joe can prove that he's rightfully owed it. I'm not suggesting Joe doesn't deserve to be paid for his work/time, but I do think it sounds like a harsh lesson for spelling out everything and covering one's backside going forward. | | | |
| Debt collection services.... on 12:49 - Nov 4 with 927 views | farkenhell |
| Debt collection services.... on 12:02 - Nov 4 by Radlett_blue |
What documentary evidence such as emails do you have about the changes in spec? If it's purely verbal, you might not be on strong legal ground.
If the work isn't finished, you could stop work until an acceptable amount has been paid.
If there isn't hard evidence of a contractual debt, a reputable debt collector isn't going to touch your case and they would take out a large chunk of what you feel you are due as their recompense.
Action - or the threat of action - through a County Court might get you a result, but they won't find in your favour without documentary evidence of a contractual claim. |
Sorry fella, I know you mean well but the final clause of your last paragraph simply isn't true. Whilst documentary evidence is, of course, good supporting evidence in support of a claim, verbal evidence is equally admissible (in fact, more often than not, there is a combination of both). A judge will listen to both sides and then decide who is more believable.
In Joe's case, from what I gather, if the initial estimate was clearly limited in scope to phase 1 work (with the rough sketch supporting that) and, in fact, more work was carried out over and above that, then I think he would be on solid ground. Joe would then presumably say that he was asked and agreed to carry out more work, and even if the customer denied asking for that, a judge is (I think) more likely to believe Joe on the basis of why would he carry out that extra work, especially when in this case that appears to be substantial?
Joe's case really stands (or falls) on establishing what was agreed initially, and then what was carried out over and above that. | | | |
| Debt collection services.... on 12:53 - Nov 4 with 906 views | farkenhell |
| Debt collection services.... on 12:22 - Nov 4 by portmanking |
Very harsh, but unfortunately true.
Unless it's explicitly documented in writing that additional works fall out of scope and require additional billing, why should the customer be expected to pay more (even if they know it's probably the fairest option)? |
Quite simply because the customer asked for more work to be carried out over and above the initial estimate.
"...they then had us finish the works to a further point [phase 2 for ease], whilst also increasing the scope of works numerous times in the phases directly on site."
You can't ask someone to do more work in these circumstances and not expect to pay for it. | | | |
| Debt collection services.... on 13:07 - Nov 4 with 827 views | itfcjoe |
| Debt collection services.... on 12:16 - Nov 4 by portmanking |
Isn't it incumbent on *you* to re-price the job, the moment that things fall out of initial scope?
Don't mean to be blunt here Joe, but I'm not sure you have much of a leg to stand on. |
I doubt there has been a completed building project of any size that hasn't had things fall out of scope; it's just the way things work - especially when client is requesting things clearly outside the scope of defined works and when we've effectively had to price the job of the back of a fag packet | |
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