| How do you close the athleticism gap? 12:32 - Nov 27 with 5281 views | itfcjoe |
Because that is what separates the top players from the rest at every level.
There were a couple of moments in the Fulham game when Harry Clarke and Kayden Jackson were relatively easily chased down by no-name players that you wouldn't associate with being anything special and you realise the difference between physicality levels in the PL compared to the Championship
Felt a few moments like that on Saturday, where they were just bigger, faster, stronger and at some point we need to upgrade squad to be able to cope with that which obviously costs money.
Are there shortcuts to this? Can our existing squad be upgraded to the levels required? Are we seeing some hit their ceiling? Has our recruitment helped with this?
Lots of questions, but does make you realise how important this January is going to be as we try to capitalise on our incredible start |  |
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| How do you close the athleticism gap? on 12:36 - Nov 27 with 3894 views | Herbivore |
I don't often watch full Prem games but I caught a couple at the weekend (City v Liverpool and Spurs v Villa) and it was kind of like watching us but speeded up 1.5 times and if all of the players had spent a year juicing. I guess as athletes individuals will have different ceilings in terms of how fast they can get, how strong they can become. Last year we looked fitter and stronger than everyone more or less, this season we have done most of the time too but noticeably less so against sides who have recently been in the Prem. Basically, I have no answers for you. |  |
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| How do you close the athleticism gap? on 12:38 - Nov 27 with 3863 views | CobboldCrusty |
| How do you close the athleticism gap? on 12:36 - Nov 27 by Herbivore |
I don't often watch full Prem games but I caught a couple at the weekend (City v Liverpool and Spurs v Villa) and it was kind of like watching us but speeded up 1.5 times and if all of the players had spent a year juicing. I guess as athletes individuals will have different ceilings in terms of how fast they can get, how strong they can become. Last year we looked fitter and stronger than everyone more or less, this season we have done most of the time too but noticeably less so against sides who have recently been in the Prem. Basically, I have no answers for you. |
Agree the Spurs v Villa game in particular was played at a frightening pace [Post edited 27 Nov 2023 12:38]
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| How do you close the athleticism gap? on 12:38 - Nov 27 with 3860 views | giant_stow |
"at every level" so true. |  |
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| How do you close the athleticism gap? on 12:44 - Nov 27 with 3794 views | FrimleyBlue |
Mixture of recruitment and the level of training facilities you'd imagine.
Think yourself mentioned last summer that we started bringing in different types of youngsters into the club which I guess is the starting point. |  |
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| How do you close the athleticism gap? on 12:48 - Nov 27 with 3794 views | SheffordBlue |
There are obviously physical limits for the existing players but how close we are to hitting those isn't clear. I think Matt Allen was probably an upgrade on Andy Costin as far as overseeing some of this but I think there's probably a long lead time to developing players physically during the season. |  |
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| How do you close the athleticism gap? on 12:51 - Nov 27 with 3765 views | WestStanderLaLaLa |
No short cuts, will have to be over the course of several windows. |  |
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| How do you close the athleticism gap? on 12:51 - Nov 27 with 3761 views | Facefacts |
I think you can close the athleticism gap, but it will take a long time. Plucking figures out of the air: 15 new players averaging 20M per player - how long will it take to do that? Maybe you laugh but that is needed to get established in the Premier League. Plus two very high quality loanees on season long deals. 3 to 5 years, probably? - and that will only happen if we can maintain the upward trajectory. Look how Burnley are struggling, Tella was on loan, Luton Town - both shopping in bargain bin. I trust the people (MA, KM, etc) but we haven't seen the plan (what was the ambition for this season (stay up?, Mid table, Playoffs) - it's not been revealed to supporters. So far we've not been able to attract anyone (that improves the team) other than young potential that KM already knows from Tottenham, Man Utd, England younger age teams. You have to be able to attract talent from the higher level - so maintaining our place in top two over December, better performances on Sky when in the spotlight - are required. |  | | |
| How do you close the athleticism gap? on 12:53 - Nov 27 with 3752 views | Herbivore |
| How do you close the athleticism gap? on 12:38 - Nov 27 by CobboldCrusty |
Agree the Spurs v Villa game in particular was played at a frightening pace [Post edited 27 Nov 2023 12:38]
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It was mad wasn't it? The intensity of the press and the speed at which the ball had to be moved as a result was something else. Not dissimilar in style to us but the tempo was ridiculous and I was a bit afraid of how we would cope with that step up. | |
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| How do you close the athleticism gap? on 12:59 - Nov 27 with 3718 views | unstableblue |
Joe,
I generally agree with your point.
But I think we need to be a little careful we don't use Saturday night at the Hawthorns as an exemplar of where Town's squad is now, and how it benchmarks against the Premier League. The WBA manager set them up very well, is a great coach, they wanted it more, and we had a number of players who are out of form or didn't show up. We were losing all the battles. Their coach's post match summary suggested he told his players, come with your A game, because if not Ipswich have a method that is resilient and will be too strong for us.
BUT, at Southampton away, where we faced another Premier level side, yes we weathered an early storm and were second best. But once we grew into the game, we were the physically dominant side, we bossed the game from a stamina and fitness perspective. Omari is slight, but he wanted it more than them, they were bouncing off Burns
Our front 4 were misfiring on the weekend, Broadhead and Burns especially, and that meant we weren't putting West Brom on the back foot. Combine with some rustiness from our centre backs. We got owned by their energy, strength and pace. Burns is a physical lad and he had early joy, but lacked composure and his head dropped.
I actually compare the West Brom game to the seasons where we used to get owned by Warne's Rotherham - they're not Premiership quality players - but over a number of games they used to come to PR and just steam roll us. And we never had a reply, and looked physically inferior.
But I do agree upgrades will be needed across the team - which we all knew - a bit of pace, strength is needed to boss teams, and have any chance in the Premiership - where teams such as Spurs are way bigger than you realise. Even our terrier Morsy was struggling with the scale of his markers, but did OK, because he just wanted it more.
Let's see where we are come Saturday evening. Coventry were on top against West Brom for large periods in a game I saw recently, and Millwall are no shrinking violets.
Down to McKenna to fire them up, get the system that we can fall back on when facing adversity firing.. and we desperately need Burns and Broadhead to have a good game and hit form - if a team is sh!tting themselves about our runners then thy change behaviours... sadly it was reversed at the Hawthorns. [Post edited 27 Nov 2023 13:01]
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| How do you close the athleticism gap? on 13:01 - Nov 27 with 3670 views | Illinoisblue |
| How do you close the athleticism gap? on 12:38 - Nov 27 by CobboldCrusty |
Agree the Spurs v Villa game in particular was played at a frightening pace [Post edited 27 Nov 2023 12:38]
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Felt like a basketball game, end to end back and forth, non stop. |  |
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| How do you close the athleticism gap? on 13:09 - Nov 27 with 3584 views | TRUE_BLUE123 |
| How do you close the athleticism gap? on 12:59 - Nov 27 by unstableblue |
Joe,
I generally agree with your point.
But I think we need to be a little careful we don't use Saturday night at the Hawthorns as an exemplar of where Town's squad is now, and how it benchmarks against the Premier League. The WBA manager set them up very well, is a great coach, they wanted it more, and we had a number of players who are out of form or didn't show up. We were losing all the battles. Their coach's post match summary suggested he told his players, come with your A game, because if not Ipswich have a method that is resilient and will be too strong for us.
BUT, at Southampton away, where we faced another Premier level side, yes we weathered an early storm and were second best. But once we grew into the game, we were the physically dominant side, we bossed the game from a stamina and fitness perspective. Omari is slight, but he wanted it more than them, they were bouncing off Burns
Our front 4 were misfiring on the weekend, Broadhead and Burns especially, and that meant we weren't putting West Brom on the back foot. Combine with some rustiness from our centre backs. We got owned by their energy, strength and pace. Burns is a physical lad and he had early joy, but lacked composure and his head dropped.
I actually compare the West Brom game to the seasons where we used to get owned by Warne's Rotherham - they're not Premiership quality players - but over a number of games they used to come to PR and just steam roll us. And we never had a reply, and looked physically inferior.
But I do agree upgrades will be needed across the team - which we all knew - a bit of pace, strength is needed to boss teams, and have any chance in the Premiership - where teams such as Spurs are way bigger than you realise. Even our terrier Morsy was struggling with the scale of his markers, but did OK, because he just wanted it more.
Let's see where we are come Saturday evening. Coventry were on top against West Brom for large periods in a game I saw recently, and Millwall are no shrinking violets.
Down to McKenna to fire them up, get the system that we can fall back on when facing adversity firing.. and we desperately need Burns and Broadhead to have a good game and hit form - if a team is sh!tting themselves about our runners then thy change behaviours... sadly it was reversed at the Hawthorns. [Post edited 27 Nov 2023 13:01]
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"they wanted it more". Never understood that point of view in football.
You mention the quiet days of Broadhead and Chaplin, but I think that was as a consequence of physicality. Chaplin was getting touched off the ball and Broadhead lost almost every single 50/50.
But do agree with you overall point that we shouldn't use that game as the benchmark. Not many teams will win there. |  |
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| How do you close the athleticism gap? on 13:09 - Nov 27 with 3577 views | unbelievablue |
Let trans athlet- oh, wait. |  |
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| How do you close the athleticism gap? on 13:14 - Nov 27 with 3549 views | textbackup |
You can’t physically make a human bigger by taking shortcuts (legally)
WBA had them two CBs and Phillips in their team, all atleast 6’2” 6’3”… at about 14stone of pure muscle.
Seeing us go long to Chaplin as he’s being marked by those 2 was a low point Saturday. Playing to our strengths could be the shortcut and way round the physical size issue.
But to answer the OP, I guess it comes down to the transfers we bring in from this point. [Post edited 27 Nov 2023 13:16]
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| How do you close the athleticism gap? on 13:14 - Nov 27 with 3542 views | Help |
I think you are concentrating to much on certain aspects. You seem to be ignoring the football brain. What makes a great player/ better player is the ability to process the game. See the opportunity. Too often we appear slow because either our players wait for the pattern of play installed in them, or they cannot process the game quick enough to make decisions that may influence a game or opportunity.
How many times in games are runners not seen or used and the opportunity is missed to get behind the opposition. A lot of small players may not have the height/speed/physicality you speak of but have the football brain others do not have.
The ceiling is not only a players ability to perform physically but to develop the understanding of position of both themselves and others. Guessing the right outcome of the opposition tactics to intercept a pass or win that 50 50 ball.
What has got us here may not be enough to get us further. An adaptability to change and alter during a game. To not just do what you have been told. But see an opportunity and seize it.
Do some of our players have the premiership or even championship brain to cope with the damands of the football required to get us into the premiership. Some I fear do not and that is where our frailities lie. |  | | |
| How do you close the athleticism gap? on 13:17 - Nov 27 with 3515 views | BloomBlue |
I never considered Messi to be bigger faster, stronger but I would still have him in the team.
I would also argue WBA had bigger, faster, stronger players last season but failed to win promotion. |  | | |
| How do you close the athleticism gap? on 13:19 - Nov 27 with 3510 views | Steve_M |
I thought it showed against Leeds as well too, as much as that was perhaps a secondary factor as to why we lost that day. Definitely a big part of the reason why Chaplin and Broadhead were so much less involved on Saturday which in turn is a big part of the reason we were so limited in threat.
I suppose that ultimately it's part of the incremental improvement to the squad that we will need across successive transfer windows, and also what we didn't manage to do last Summer.
The short cut question is harder, probably depends on individuals, Wolfenden has got stronger over the last 18 months and Clarke should have the physicality to compete at a higher level but there are is a larger number of players who might be closer to the ceiling in terms of ability, physicality or both.
I suspect that the best short cut is getting promoted, and using the extra money to improve the squad more qucikly. |  |
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| How do you close the athleticism gap? on 13:28 - Nov 27 with 3400 views | ChampionsofInnsbruck |
You can’t train natural talent and advantages either, generally speaking players in the bottom tiers aren’t naturally as fast and athletic as those on the books as top flight clubs these days, if we were promoted we’d need to change a lot of players sadly. |  | | |
| How do you close the athleticism gap? on 13:28 - Nov 27 with 3399 views | tractorboy1978 |
| How do you close the athleticism gap? on 13:14 - Nov 27 by textbackup |
You can’t physically make a human bigger by taking shortcuts (legally)
WBA had them two CBs and Phillips in their team, all atleast 6’2” 6’3”… at about 14stone of pure muscle.
Seeing us go long to Chaplin as he’s being marked by those 2 was a low point Saturday. Playing to our strengths could be the shortcut and way round the physical size issue.
But to answer the OP, I guess it comes down to the transfers we bring in from this point. [Post edited 27 Nov 2023 13:16]
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I don’t think it is all about brawn and physicality. You can see that Williams, Davis and Hutchinson have the sort of athleticism that Joe is getting at. I thought we missed Hutchinson on Saturday and I’d be interested to know if he was in line to start because it was the sort of game that would have suited him.
I think Tuanzebe will ultimately get into the side and be a regular and I think the same with Hutchinson. Recruiting players that have PL athleticism and upper Championship/lower Prem technical capabilities to suit the style we play is going to be costly! You look at Downes and he’s absolutely perfect but he’s probably a £12m player now. [Post edited 27 Nov 2023 13:29]
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| How do you close the athleticism gap? on 13:37 - Nov 27 with 3327 views | textbackup |
| How do you close the athleticism gap? on 13:28 - Nov 27 by tractorboy1978 |
I don’t think it is all about brawn and physicality. You can see that Williams, Davis and Hutchinson have the sort of athleticism that Joe is getting at. I thought we missed Hutchinson on Saturday and I’d be interested to know if he was in line to start because it was the sort of game that would have suited him.
I think Tuanzebe will ultimately get into the side and be a regular and I think the same with Hutchinson. Recruiting players that have PL athleticism and upper Championship/lower Prem technical capabilities to suit the style we play is going to be costly! You look at Downes and he’s absolutely perfect but he’s probably a £12m player now. [Post edited 27 Nov 2023 13:29]
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Yeah sorry I went off in the physical size direction, realised that and tried pulling it back by saying we need to then play to our strengths ie not high balls into 5’ players being marked by giants
Football fitness is crazy, I watched a bit of villa spurs, and as mentioned, the speed they operate at… I reckon the average bloke would last all of 5mins in a prem game as would be absolutely blowing! | |
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| How do you close the athleticism gap? on 13:44 - Nov 27 with 3277 views | tractorboy1978 |
| How do you close the athleticism gap? on 13:37 - Nov 27 by textbackup |
Yeah sorry I went off in the physical size direction, realised that and tried pulling it back by saying we need to then play to our strengths ie not high balls into 5’ players being marked by giants
Football fitness is crazy, I watched a bit of villa spurs, and as mentioned, the speed they operate at… I reckon the average bloke would last all of 5mins in a prem game as would be absolutely blowing! |
Yeah and that fitness/athleticism is a bare minimum in the Prem. I think that is why Luton have adjusted far better than Burnley/Sheff Utd so far despite being technically worse. I watched their play off game vs Sunderland at Kenilworth Road - both teams were ridiculous but the Luton players in particular were relentless to a man. | | | |
| How do you close the athleticism gap? on 13:55 - Nov 27 with 3213 views | Illinoisblue |
Are the Tom Brady TB12 performance group still involved with us? | |
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| How do you close the athleticism gap? on 14:49 - Nov 27 with 3003 views | shady |
What’s the recruitment plan?
Could it be that we have seen some clues that fit with our budget:
Fast and physical players that have had injury issues so are available, the players themselves are determined and grateful to be given a second chance with us.
Massimo Luongo: overlooked by Boro and proof that this plan works
Axel Tuanzebe: let us see
Panutche Camara: OK so not worked out…yet?
Oh yes, dose ‘em up with TB12 and have our medicos work on them. |  | | |
| How do you close the athleticism gap? on 14:58 - Nov 27 with 2955 views | homer_123 |
Whilst athleticism plays a role, I would argue that within itself it offers little benefit without the ability to read the game better.
To better anticipate what will happen/ see things quicker.
We can have bigger, stronger, faster players but if their football intelligence is no better than we have, it's rather a moot point.
I would rather have a better 'reader' of the game, every time. |  |
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| How do you close the athleticism gap? on 15:05 - Nov 27 with 2935 views | LankHenners |
Good thing is McKenna is fully aware of that specific issue - seem to remember that in the first presser looking forwards to this season when asked about the differences between League 1/Championship he immediately talked about physicality and how many yards are covered, how it's one of the most physical leagues in Europe based on running distances etc.
Think Saturday was also a bit of a reminder that this level (top-end Champ) is quite a bit beyond what a lot of our players have played at before and McKenna has had to get everything and more out of them collectively to do as well as we have done.
As you say there were times on Saturday where we struggled to find any space to get the ball moving forwards as they were just suffocating the middle third, even when we switched play they were just so quick at getting across and covering spaces. Thought we looked a bit knackered as well later in the 2nd half and didn't really have the quality on the bench to come on early enough to take over and make a difference.
Short term the answer is recruitment, and as above McKenna will know exactly the type of player we need. Maybe we take a small step back and find someone who's a bit of a rough diamond but has the attributes we can train into being the player we want. Brandon Thomas-Asante wasn't a Championship ready striker when he first moved to West Brom but very much looks the part now as he always had the strength and speed and just needed the environment to develop. |  |
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| How do you close the athleticism gap? on 16:01 - Nov 27 with 2743 views | textbackup |
| How do you close the athleticism gap? on 14:58 - Nov 27 by homer_123 |
Whilst athleticism plays a role, I would argue that within itself it offers little benefit without the ability to read the game better.
To better anticipate what will happen/ see things quicker.
We can have bigger, stronger, faster players but if their football intelligence is no better than we have, it's rather a moot point.
I would rather have a better 'reader' of the game, every time. |
Yes and no, imagine 11 Tony Mowbrays… we’d be seriously switched on, but rather slow in our approach | |
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