| Are we at a tipping point? on 10:58 - Oct 19 with 959 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Are we at a tipping point? on 10:49 - Oct 19 by NthQldITFC |
Literally, I would say a vast majority does know it - you'd have to be pretty incapable of rational thought, or have been completely unexposed to decades of data and science not to have a handle on it - but somehow that vast majority fails to act where it has power or a democratic option.
It's either a critical failure in human intellectual evolution, or a selfish stain on humanity, depending on how you look at it. |
"But what can yo do!"
.....apparently the answer is to blame someone worse off than you. |  |
| "They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches." | | Poll: | What you watching. |
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| Are we at a tipping point? on 11:05 - Oct 19 with 937 views | Guthrum |
If somebody can find a way of instantly reversing decades of inflation fuelled by unbridled consumerism, then this problem will be solved!
In reality, rising standards of living* have driven wage increases, but beyond actual productivity levels and insufficiently to withstand economic shocks produced by fads (dot.com, potentially AI), excessive debt leverage (2008) and clumsy stupidity in international affairs (cr@p-deal Brexit, Russia in Ukraine, the USA against Iran). Not to mention ongoing pressures from Climate Change and migration (partly caused by that, plus the aforementioned clumsy stupidity in international affairs). Also ageing populations and falling birthrates eroding the workforce.
Thus we have ended up with an unsolveable circular problem. Everybody has priced themselves out of the market. Even the businesses upon which the wealth of the ultra-rich are based are loaded with debt.
In addition, people have been taught by media and politicians that the solutions should just be handed to them, without any cost in money or standard of living. They are rioting because political leaders are unable to magically conjure money from nowhere (at least in the quantities needed) to subsidise prices or supplement earnings**. Nor are they able to stop powerful loons starting wars.
* Principally in the global West, but places like China and India are catching up.
** That would be money just poured into the system, unlike with Quantitative Easing where bonds were acquired which could be subsequently sold off, albeit often at a loss. Also, the sums of money are greater. Giving every UK household £10k to get over this crisis would take £300b, roughly twice what QE is projected to cost, net. |  |
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| Are we at a tipping point? on 11:59 - Oct 19 with 872 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Are we at a tipping point? on 11:05 - Oct 19 by Guthrum |
If somebody can find a way of instantly reversing decades of inflation fuelled by unbridled consumerism, then this problem will be solved!
In reality, rising standards of living* have driven wage increases, but beyond actual productivity levels and insufficiently to withstand economic shocks produced by fads (dot.com, potentially AI), excessive debt leverage (2008) and clumsy stupidity in international affairs (cr@p-deal Brexit, Russia in Ukraine, the USA against Iran). Not to mention ongoing pressures from Climate Change and migration (partly caused by that, plus the aforementioned clumsy stupidity in international affairs). Also ageing populations and falling birthrates eroding the workforce.
Thus we have ended up with an unsolveable circular problem. Everybody has priced themselves out of the market. Even the businesses upon which the wealth of the ultra-rich are based are loaded with debt.
In addition, people have been taught by media and politicians that the solutions should just be handed to them, without any cost in money or standard of living. They are rioting because political leaders are unable to magically conjure money from nowhere (at least in the quantities needed) to subsidise prices or supplement earnings**. Nor are they able to stop powerful loons starting wars.
* Principally in the global West, but places like China and India are catching up.
** That would be money just poured into the system, unlike with Quantitative Easing where bonds were acquired which could be subsequently sold off, albeit often at a loss. Also, the sums of money are greater. Giving every UK household £10k to get over this crisis would take £300b, roughly twice what QE is projected to cost, net. |
It's got past the point of being fixable IMHO. A complete reset is required starting with the holders of debt taking a hit. Guess what, it's meant to be a risk! | |
| "They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches." | | Poll: | What you watching. |
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| Are we at a tipping point? on 12:52 - Oct 19 with 813 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Are we at a tipping point? on 11:59 - Oct 19 by BanksterDebtSlave |
It's got past the point of being fixable IMHO. A complete reset is required starting with the holders of debt taking a hit. Guess what, it's meant to be a risk! |
That’ll be our gov too since we also hold foreign debt.
Doctors and nurses won’t get paid, Sterling will crash making current inflation look like a walk in the park. But at least the dogmatic ideologists will be happy.
France is skint because it’s been so generous, they’ve not acted with any budgetary responsibility so the ECB doesn’t want to step in.
Frankly I think looting small businesses and setting fire to state property is the very definition of entitlement. People are quite literally dying to get to Europe for it’s standard of living. |  | | |
| Are we at a tipping point? on 13:00 - Oct 19 with 777 views | balcombeblue |
| Are we at a tipping point? on 11:59 - Oct 19 by BanksterDebtSlave |
It's got past the point of being fixable IMHO. A complete reset is required starting with the holders of debt taking a hit. Guess what, it's meant to be a risk! |
What do you think the consequences of that will be? |  | | |
| Are we at a tipping point? on 13:03 - Oct 19 with 757 views | balcombeblue |
| Are we at a tipping point? on 12:52 - Oct 19 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
That’ll be our gov too since we also hold foreign debt.
Doctors and nurses won’t get paid, Sterling will crash making current inflation look like a walk in the park. But at least the dogmatic ideologists will be happy.
France is skint because it’s been so generous, they’ve not acted with any budgetary responsibility so the ECB doesn’t want to step in.
Frankly I think looting small businesses and setting fire to state property is the very definition of entitlement. People are quite literally dying to get to Europe for it’s standard of living. |
Even more pertinently, most of that money is owed to our own citizens | | | |
| Are we at a tipping point? on 13:06 - Oct 19 with 733 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Are we at a tipping point? on 13:00 - Oct 19 by balcombeblue |
What do you think the consequences of that will be? |
Painfull, but it's going to happen eventually and all this can kicking has and will just makes it worse in the long run!
Perhaps we can prioritise private debt holders taking the hit, recoup some of the wealth that private corporations have stollen from the public purse and make public servants and services the first priority. | |
| "They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches." | | Poll: | What you watching. |
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| Are we at a tipping point? on 13:11 - Oct 19 with 716 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Are we at a tipping point? on 13:03 - Oct 19 by balcombeblue |
Even more pertinently, most of that money is owed to our own citizens |
Just highlighting the massive risk of contagion.
But furthermore any haircuts on debt will of course come with legal covenants around spending cuts. The idea we can just walk away without any serious consequences is for the fairies. Argentina’s (latest) deal has seen their currency crash and inflation hit 33pc, which also makes repayment in USD denominated debt even more painful. UK could just take a debt haircut and pay teachers with a wheelbarrow full of worthless Sterling. | | | |
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| Are we at a tipping point? on 13:17 - Oct 19 with 701 views | balcombeblue |
| Are we at a tipping point? on 13:06 - Oct 19 by BanksterDebtSlave |
Painfull, but it's going to happen eventually and all this can kicking has and will just makes it worse in the long run!
Perhaps we can prioritise private debt holders taking the hit, recoup some of the wealth that private corporations have stollen from the public purse and make public servants and services the first priority. |
That would destroy the value of private pension funds, make banks insolvent and fly any remaining capital would fly out of the uk.
Nobody would ever lend to the UK again with the obvious consequences.
It’s happened on a few occasions before. All under state run economies with the obvious consequences. | | | |
| Are we at a tipping point? on 13:19 - Oct 19 with 694 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Are we at a tipping point? on 13:11 - Oct 19 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
Just highlighting the massive risk of contagion.
But furthermore any haircuts on debt will of course come with legal covenants around spending cuts. The idea we can just walk away without any serious consequences is for the fairies. Argentina’s (latest) deal has seen their currency crash and inflation hit 33pc, which also makes repayment in USD denominated debt even more painful. UK could just take a debt haircut and pay teachers with a wheelbarrow full of worthless Sterling. |
Is your main interest here the long term future of people and planet or preserving your nest egg.
Are you really saying that the only option is more of the same?
Perhaps it's time for defaults not haircuts.We could just take the money out of the equation and concentrate on mutual cooperation towards basic needs and not vanity projects and stuff.....a total reset. | |
| "They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches." | | Poll: | What you watching. |
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| Are we at a tipping point? on 13:20 - Oct 19 with 692 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Are we at a tipping point? on 13:17 - Oct 19 by balcombeblue |
That would destroy the value of private pension funds, make banks insolvent and fly any remaining capital would fly out of the uk.
Nobody would ever lend to the UK again with the obvious consequences.
It’s happened on a few occasions before. All under state run economies with the obvious consequences. |
Let them fly their capital, make it worthless with nowhere to fly to. | |
| "They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches." | | Poll: | What you watching. |
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| Are we at a tipping point? on 13:24 - Oct 19 with 677 views | balcombeblue |
| Are we at a tipping point? on 13:20 - Oct 19 by BanksterDebtSlave |
Let them fly their capital, make it worthless with nowhere to fly to. |
And to think you downvote my posts! | | | |
| Are we at a tipping point? on 13:28 - Oct 19 with 673 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Are we at a tipping point? on 13:19 - Oct 19 by BanksterDebtSlave |
Is your main interest here the long term future of people and planet or preserving your nest egg.
Are you really saying that the only option is more of the same?
Perhaps it's time for defaults not haircuts.We could just take the money out of the equation and concentrate on mutual cooperation towards basic needs and not vanity projects and stuff.....a total reset. |
How does a UK default save the planet in any way? There are many well run countries within Europe that have much lower debt obligations and fantastic public services. These countries aren’t going to abandon systems which have given citizens the best standard of living in the world. It would just be an UK act of self vandalism.
The type of crash you are proposing would be catastrophic, people not being paid including police and politicians, looting, civil unrest and serious violence would follow. A power vacuum for extremist groups. We aren’t self sufficient as a country, without money or a stable currency, we wouldn’t even be able to feed the UK. Best start stashing away a load of greenback under your mattress for food imports! | | | |
| Are we at a tipping point? on 13:29 - Oct 19 with 673 views | grow_our_own |
| Are we at a tipping point? on 11:59 - Oct 19 by BanksterDebtSlave |
It's got past the point of being fixable IMHO. A complete reset is required starting with the holders of debt taking a hit. Guess what, it's meant to be a risk! |
"holders of debt taking a hit" - careful, that's that's a lot of elderly you're taking the pensions of there. Not just rootless cosmopolitan ultra-rich. It's also regular people with a bit of savings.
Debt default really isn't the best option. Countries who do that will barely be able to borrow again, except at punitive rates. Currency will collapse, causing rampant inflation. Banks collapse causing bank-runs/lost savings. Public services will suffer. You won't be able to attract foreign investment. This isn't just theory, this is what actually happened in countries like Argentina. [Post edited 19 Oct 13:30]
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| Are we at a tipping point? on 14:02 - Oct 19 with 586 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Are we at a tipping point? on 13:29 - Oct 19 by grow_our_own |
"holders of debt taking a hit" - careful, that's that's a lot of elderly you're taking the pensions of there. Not just rootless cosmopolitan ultra-rich. It's also regular people with a bit of savings.
Debt default really isn't the best option. Countries who do that will barely be able to borrow again, except at punitive rates. Currency will collapse, causing rampant inflation. Banks collapse causing bank-runs/lost savings. Public services will suffer. You won't be able to attract foreign investment. This isn't just theory, this is what actually happened in countries like Argentina. [Post edited 19 Oct 13:30]
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So we get slowly bled dry with the noose of eternal debt hanging over us.
There is no evidence that Capitalism can transition to a system that is in the interest of the majority and the planet. | |
| "They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches." | | Poll: | What you watching. |
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| Are we at a tipping point? on 14:20 - Oct 19 with 559 views | grow_our_own |
| Are we at a tipping point? on 14:02 - Oct 19 by BanksterDebtSlave |
So we get slowly bled dry with the noose of eternal debt hanging over us.
There is no evidence that Capitalism can transition to a system that is in the interest of the majority and the planet. |
Greece is the model. Following its near-default, it faced up to its problems. Reduced its profligate spending (eg reformed pensions), reduced its tax gap, and started attracting investment again. Its bond rates are now low and it averages above 2% a year growth. Debt has dropped 60% from its peak. | | | |
| Are we at a tipping point? on 14:23 - Oct 19 with 553 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Are we at a tipping point? on 14:20 - Oct 19 by grow_our_own |
Greece is the model. Following its near-default, it faced up to its problems. Reduced its profligate spending (eg reformed pensions), reduced its tax gap, and started attracting investment again. Its bond rates are now low and it averages above 2% a year growth. Debt has dropped 60% from its peak. |
I have spoken to a good few in Greece near and under the bread line, they wouldn't agree that things have got better! | |
| "They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches." | | Poll: | What you watching. |
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| Are we at a tipping point? on 14:33 - Oct 19 with 539 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Are we at a tipping point? on 14:23 - Oct 19 by BanksterDebtSlave |
I have spoken to a good few in Greece near and under the bread line, they wouldn't agree that things have got better! |
Hence my point that defaults or debt restructuring are not something desirable, they were restricted to very stringent budgetary rules as part of a bailout.
Not that talking to a few people on holiday is that representative of an entire country - they’ve moved steadily up in the HDI index which is a better measure of living standards than wages or economic growth. | | | |
| Are we at a tipping point? on 14:35 - Oct 19 with 539 views | grow_our_own |
| Are we at a tipping point? on 14:23 - Oct 19 by BanksterDebtSlave |
I have spoken to a good few in Greece near and under the bread line, they wouldn't agree that things have got better! |
It's on the right road tho. All starts with having a good economy. I agree shouldn't run economy like a household, and overspending to smooth-out harsh recessions (as Keynes said) is to be encouraged. But must put yourself in position to be able to do that. Can't if lenders don't trust you because you don't bother to collect taxes or if you pay pensions to everyone at age ~60. | | | |
| Are we at a tipping point? on 14:40 - Oct 19 with 523 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Are we at a tipping point? on 14:33 - Oct 19 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
Hence my point that defaults or debt restructuring are not something desirable, they were restricted to very stringent budgetary rules as part of a bailout.
Not that talking to a few people on holiday is that representative of an entire country - they’ve moved steadily up in the HDI index which is a better measure of living standards than wages or economic growth. |
Holiday?
I'll be sure to refer them to the HDI index, sure it will make them feel heaps better. | |
| "They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches." | | Poll: | What you watching. |
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| Are we at a tipping point? on 14:47 - Oct 19 with 502 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Are we at a tipping point? on 14:40 - Oct 19 by BanksterDebtSlave |
Holiday?
I'll be sure to refer them to the HDI index, sure it will make them feel heaps better. |
It includes such minor things as health, life expectancy, education and standard of living. I’d say they were fairly good things to have increased. I didn’t have you down as measuring quality of life by ‘how much stuff you have’? | | | |
| Are we at a tipping point? on 14:53 - Oct 19 with 484 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Are we at a tipping point? on 14:47 - Oct 19 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
It includes such minor things as health, life expectancy, education and standard of living. I’d say they were fairly good things to have increased. I didn’t have you down as measuring quality of life by ‘how much stuff you have’? |
I hear that tractor production in the Urals is fair booming too. | |
| "They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches." | | Poll: | What you watching. |
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| Are we at a tipping point? on 14:58 - Oct 19 with 480 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Are we at a tipping point? on 14:53 - Oct 19 by BanksterDebtSlave |
I hear that tractor production in the Urals is fair booming too. |
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| Are we at a tipping point? on 15:21 - Oct 19 with 439 views | victorysquad |
The problem is the state is too big, and there are too many people out there expecting the state to pay for things they cannot afford. The state then goes chasing anyone they think has got money, and the entire economy (and country) collapses. There is no money, everyone is broke.
So yes I can see civil unrest coming here soon. | |
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| Are we at a tipping point? on 15:36 - Oct 19 with 411 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Are we at a tipping point? on 15:21 - Oct 19 by victorysquad |
The problem is the state is too big, and there are too many people out there expecting the state to pay for things they cannot afford. The state then goes chasing anyone they think has got money, and the entire economy (and country) collapses. There is no money, everyone is broke.
So yes I can see civil unrest coming here soon. |
Personally I would say that wealth extraction from the public purse/state is what is too high. Farage wants to deregulate and get his hands on even more of it.
The State needs to be in the hands of the people not our overlords. | |
| "They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches." | | Poll: | What you watching. |
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