| Comparing the West Bank military operation with Ukraine and Hong Kong 09:41 - Jul 4 with 1892 views | WeWereZombies |
I know this thread will stir up some predictable responses but bear with me and reflect for a moment.
Yesterday news outlets were using the term invasion (usually in scare quotes) to describe what is going on in Jenin but this morning the BBC describe it as an operation (hopefully the Israeli Army will swiftly withdraw because the term has very negative connotations after Russia's actions of the past year) and Aljazeera are using 'raid'. I was struck by different response likely should any of the 2018 uprising activists be seized or killed by bounty hunters operating in the United Kingdom but, of course, we have to remember that none of those activists went anywhere close to donning a suicide vest or launching rockets.
Still, the collateral damage from Israel's operation seems unjust to me, this is the latest thing I see on the BBC 'developing story' main news page:
'Charity worker seeing gunshot and shrapnel wounds
Jovana Arsenijevic is with the medical charity Medecins Sans Frontieres. She's been at a hospital next to the refugee camp in Jenin since the early hours of Monday morning.
Yesterday, she said she saw more than 90 patients with gunshot and shrapnel wounds from different explosive devices.
"The military activity is still going on. There was a very brief pause where we also saw displacement of many, many families with children as young as one day old fleeing to the hospitals to seek refuge."'
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-66085089 |  |
| |  |
| Comparing the West Bank military operation with Ukraine and Hong Kong on 09:54 - Jul 4 with 1834 views | Guthrum |
It is probably not a coincidence that Netanyahu has just suffered a defeat and had to walk back on some of his judicial "reforms", upsetting his extremist minor party backers in the process. They, as usual, are threatening to bring down the government.
IMO this is simply a diversion, with Palestinians dying to save Netanyahu's political hide. [Post edited 4 Jul 2023 9:54]
|  |
| |
| Comparing the West Bank military operation with Ukraine and Hong Kong on 10:08 - Jul 4 with 1780 views | WeWereZombies |
| Comparing the West Bank military operation with Ukraine and Hong Kong on 09:54 - Jul 4 by Guthrum |
It is probably not a coincidence that Netanyahu has just suffered a defeat and had to walk back on some of his judicial "reforms", upsetting his extremist minor party backers in the process. They, as usual, are threatening to bring down the government.
IMO this is simply a diversion, with Palestinians dying to save Netanyahu's political hide. [Post edited 4 Jul 2023 9:54]
|
Jeremy Bowen's contribution to the news feed yesterday didn't mention that but he did focus on the 'absolute control of the armed groups' when he was in Jenin last week so the Israelis could have genuine concerns about a force being raised there. However there was reporting of the extreme pressure being put upon the Israeli government by right-wing politicians to act. Another reflection I have is that opportunities to gain a two state solution in the past were spurned is that this the result we all have to take responsibility for, even if something like this were happening with Palestine as a recognised sovereign state it would be easier to get UN forces involved to a significant degree:
'UNSG spokesperson urges respect for international law
Farhan Haq, Deputy Spokesman for the UN Secretary General, has urged respect for international humanitarian law.
“It is not acceptable for it to be armed attacks in areas of high population density and that’s case,” Haq said responding to Al Jazeera.
“All parties need to abide by international humanitarian law. We certainly want all parties to avoid any excessive use of force and that includes calling on them to avoid attacks on hospitals and on civilian infrastructure,” he added.'
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2023/7/4/jenin-attack-live-10-killed-as- | |
| |
| Comparing the West Bank military operation with Ukraine and Hong Kong on 10:11 - Jul 4 with 1762 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Comparing the West Bank military operation with Ukraine and Hong Kong on 09:54 - Jul 4 by Guthrum |
It is probably not a coincidence that Netanyahu has just suffered a defeat and had to walk back on some of his judicial "reforms", upsetting his extremist minor party backers in the process. They, as usual, are threatening to bring down the government.
IMO this is simply a diversion, with Palestinians dying to save Netanyahu's political hide. [Post edited 4 Jul 2023 9:54]
|
Netanyahu Is a criminal who should be in jail. Once again the actions of the Israeli government are disproportionate and should be condemned. No ifs no buts.
Really not sure what “predictable responses” Zombies was expecting when he made his post. In all the years I’ve posted on here I’ve never seen a single post excusing the disgusting actions of the Israeli state towards innocent Palestinians caught up in the conflict. A very odd comment to make. |  |
| |
| Comparing the West Bank military operation with Ukraine and Hong Kong on 10:19 - Jul 4 with 1726 views | Guthrum |
| Comparing the West Bank military operation with Ukraine and Hong Kong on 10:08 - Jul 4 by WeWereZombies |
Jeremy Bowen's contribution to the news feed yesterday didn't mention that but he did focus on the 'absolute control of the armed groups' when he was in Jenin last week so the Israelis could have genuine concerns about a force being raised there. However there was reporting of the extreme pressure being put upon the Israeli government by right-wing politicians to act. Another reflection I have is that opportunities to gain a two state solution in the past were spurned is that this the result we all have to take responsibility for, even if something like this were happening with Palestine as a recognised sovereign state it would be easier to get UN forces involved to a significant degree:
'UNSG spokesperson urges respect for international law
Farhan Haq, Deputy Spokesman for the UN Secretary General, has urged respect for international humanitarian law.
“It is not acceptable for it to be armed attacks in areas of high population density and that’s case,” Haq said responding to Al Jazeera.
“All parties need to abide by international humanitarian law. We certainly want all parties to avoid any excessive use of force and that includes calling on them to avoid attacks on hospitals and on civilian infrastructure,” he added.'
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2023/7/4/jenin-attack-live-10-killed-as- |
It is also worth bearing in mind that Israel has struck at Iranian forces in Syria recently, so Tehran is going to be keen to hit back through its proxies (plus likely Quds operatives) in Palestine. Tho they are more based in Gaza than the Fatah-controlled West Bank.
It probably now needs a three-state solution - Israel, Palestine and Gaza. I don't think the Fatah-Hamas split can be easily reconciled and one wouldn't want the new Palestinian state to be immediately plunged into civil war (however common that has been historically with new nations). Not to mention that is is always tricky trying to run a geographically split country. | |
| |
| Comparing the West Bank military operation with Ukraine and Hong Kong on 10:20 - Jul 4 with 1717 views | WeWereZombies |
| Comparing the West Bank military operation with Ukraine and Hong Kong on 10:11 - Jul 4 by GlasgowBlue |
Netanyahu Is a criminal who should be in jail. Once again the actions of the Israeli government are disproportionate and should be condemned. No ifs no buts.
Really not sure what “predictable responses” Zombies was expecting when he made his post. In all the years I’ve posted on here I’ve never seen a single post excusing the disgusting actions of the Israeli state towards innocent Palestinians caught up in the conflict. A very odd comment to make. |
I was thinking more of your objections to my using Aljazeera as, one of quite a few, news source. Predictable responses can also include those who flag wave for Palestine without understanding the full complexity of the situation and the history (actually, who does to the fullest extent ?)
My preemptive caveats may seem odd to you but all I am asking is for a wider understanding and less retrenched positions on subjects. Well done for the condemnation of Netanyahu by the way, I still find it odd that someone who used to be beamed in for comments while I watching 'The Clive James Show' on a Sunday night many years ago is now so powerful and misguided. | |
| |
| Comparing the West Bank military operation with Ukraine and Hong Kong on 10:29 - Jul 4 with 1682 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Comparing the West Bank military operation with Ukraine and Hong Kong on 10:19 - Jul 4 by Guthrum |
It is also worth bearing in mind that Israel has struck at Iranian forces in Syria recently, so Tehran is going to be keen to hit back through its proxies (plus likely Quds operatives) in Palestine. Tho they are more based in Gaza than the Fatah-controlled West Bank.
It probably now needs a three-state solution - Israel, Palestine and Gaza. I don't think the Fatah-Hamas split can be easily reconciled and one wouldn't want the new Palestinian state to be immediately plunged into civil war (however common that has been historically with new nations). Not to mention that is is always tricky trying to run a geographically split country. |
I was reading recently an account by one of Bill Clinton’s aides with regards to the peace talks at Camp David twenty three years ago.
Ehud Barak Had surprised everybody by offering to concede East Jerusalem as well as 3/4 of the Old City. Arafat wanted the Temple Mount. To which Barak, offered Arafat split-sovereignty over the Temple Mount. Israel would be sovereign underground, where there are archaeological remnants of two Jewish Temples. The Palestinians would be sovereign above ground, with Dome of the Rock and Al Aqsa.
Arafat refused, saying that there was never a Jewish Temple in Jerusalem and the talks collapsed. One of so many missed opportunities for a two state solution and a lasting peace.
With With Hamas in control of the Gaza Strip and the Israeli government controlled by the far right, peace looks further away than ever. [Post edited 4 Jul 2023 10:32]
| |
| |
| Comparing the West Bank military operation with Ukraine and Hong Kong on 12:01 - Jul 4 with 1561 views | DJR |
On a related theme, the international lawyer Philippe Sands was on the Today Programme yesterday talking about the commission set up in the Hague by Western nations to try to revive "the crime of aggression".
The following extract from an FT article written by him explains the crime.
"Four days after Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, I wrote in this paper on the crime of aggression, introduced into international law during the negotiations of the Nuremberg tribunal, by a Soviet jurist back in 1945. Since then, aggression has been one of the four established international crimes, alongside war crimes, crimes against humanity, and genocide. The International Criminal Court in The Hague is currently investigating alleged crimes in Ukraine but has not yet issued any indictments.
The ICC cannot, however, exercise jurisdiction over aggression, a gap that prompted me to propose the creation of a special criminal tribunal to investigate Vladimir Putin and his acolytes for their waging of a manifestly illegal war, which is a leadership crime. I and others were concerned that it could be difficult to pin the other crimes on the leadership, and recognised that the only crime which reached the top table with any certitude was that of aggression."
Now in principle this seems a good idea but it does beg the question why there weren't attempts to revive the crime for Western actions like Vietnam and Iraq. But surprise, surprise, Nick Robinson didn't ask that question.
As with Israel, what it does show is double standards in the West when it comes to armed conflict.
UPDATE: Part of the reason the ICC doesn't have jurisdiction is that the UK and US have not to date voted to give it jurisdiction. I wonder why? [Post edited 4 Jul 2023 12:55]
|  | | |
| Comparing the West Bank military operation with Ukraine and Hong Kong on 12:09 - Jul 4 with 1526 views | Darth_Koont |
| Comparing the West Bank military operation with Ukraine and Hong Kong on 10:29 - Jul 4 by GlasgowBlue |
I was reading recently an account by one of Bill Clinton’s aides with regards to the peace talks at Camp David twenty three years ago.
Ehud Barak Had surprised everybody by offering to concede East Jerusalem as well as 3/4 of the Old City. Arafat wanted the Temple Mount. To which Barak, offered Arafat split-sovereignty over the Temple Mount. Israel would be sovereign underground, where there are archaeological remnants of two Jewish Temples. The Palestinians would be sovereign above ground, with Dome of the Rock and Al Aqsa.
Arafat refused, saying that there was never a Jewish Temple in Jerusalem and the talks collapsed. One of so many missed opportunities for a two state solution and a lasting peace.
With With Hamas in control of the Gaza Strip and the Israeli government controlled by the far right, peace looks further away than ever. [Post edited 4 Jul 2023 10:32]
|
Source? I’ve heard this claim before but never seen any independent corroboration. Seems to be a rehash of details to paint a certain anti-Palestinian picture of those Camp David talks but not one that is accepted objectively.
But I find the overall direction of blame and “both-sidesing” of this post quite distasteful given the structural reality of an oppressed and occupied population. And an oppressor acting largely with impunity thanks to dodgy self-interested support from the US and UK in particular.
The situation isn’t of the Palestinians’ own making any more than the Russian invasion is the fault of the Ukrainians. |  |
| |
Login to get fewer ads
| Comparing the West Bank military operation with Ukraine and Hong Kong on 13:24 - Jul 4 with 1419 views | Blueschev |
| Comparing the West Bank military operation with Ukraine and Hong Kong on 10:29 - Jul 4 by GlasgowBlue |
I was reading recently an account by one of Bill Clinton’s aides with regards to the peace talks at Camp David twenty three years ago.
Ehud Barak Had surprised everybody by offering to concede East Jerusalem as well as 3/4 of the Old City. Arafat wanted the Temple Mount. To which Barak, offered Arafat split-sovereignty over the Temple Mount. Israel would be sovereign underground, where there are archaeological remnants of two Jewish Temples. The Palestinians would be sovereign above ground, with Dome of the Rock and Al Aqsa.
Arafat refused, saying that there was never a Jewish Temple in Jerusalem and the talks collapsed. One of so many missed opportunities for a two state solution and a lasting peace.
With With Hamas in control of the Gaza Strip and the Israeli government controlled by the far right, peace looks further away than ever. [Post edited 4 Jul 2023 10:32]
|
The two-state solution is a sham and it has been since 1947. If Israel was serious about it during the Oslo accords then why did it increase settlement building whilst they wore ongoing? If the West was serious about a two-state solution then why are sanctions not imposed on Israel for continued settlement building? The two-state solution is now unfeasible in any event due to the sheer number of settlements in the West Bank.
And regardless of any moral argument, were there to be the establishment of a Palestinian State based on pre-1967 Borders, there would be areas of Israel that would have less than 10 miles between the Palestinian border and the Mediterranean sea, which they would never stand for ever, it would compromise them far too much militarily. [Post edited 4 Jul 2023 13:42]
|  | | |
| Comparing the West Bank military operation with Ukraine and Hong Kong on 15:33 - Jul 4 with 1336 views | leitrimblue |
| Comparing the West Bank military operation with Ukraine and Hong Kong on 10:29 - Jul 4 by GlasgowBlue |
I was reading recently an account by one of Bill Clinton’s aides with regards to the peace talks at Camp David twenty three years ago.
Ehud Barak Had surprised everybody by offering to concede East Jerusalem as well as 3/4 of the Old City. Arafat wanted the Temple Mount. To which Barak, offered Arafat split-sovereignty over the Temple Mount. Israel would be sovereign underground, where there are archaeological remnants of two Jewish Temples. The Palestinians would be sovereign above ground, with Dome of the Rock and Al Aqsa.
Arafat refused, saying that there was never a Jewish Temple in Jerusalem and the talks collapsed. One of so many missed opportunities for a two state solution and a lasting peace.
With With Hamas in control of the Gaza Strip and the Israeli government controlled by the far right, peace looks further away than ever. [Post edited 4 Jul 2023 10:32]
|
I think the archaeological evidence for 2 Jewish temples is more then a little dubious. Both the Israeli and Palestinian authorities have been accused of the misuse of archaeology. Both have been in trouble with UNESCO in the past for disrespecting the archaeological remains of the other culture and both seem more concerned in using archaeology as a tool to prove their historical ownership of the land rather then to further identify and understand the past in general |  | | |
| Comparing the West Bank military operation with Ukraine and Hong Kong on 09:48 - Jul 5 with 1082 views | Darth_Koont |
| Comparing the West Bank military operation with Ukraine and Hong Kong on 13:24 - Jul 4 by Blueschev |
The two-state solution is a sham and it has been since 1947. If Israel was serious about it during the Oslo accords then why did it increase settlement building whilst they wore ongoing? If the West was serious about a two-state solution then why are sanctions not imposed on Israel for continued settlement building? The two-state solution is now unfeasible in any event due to the sheer number of settlements in the West Bank.
And regardless of any moral argument, were there to be the establishment of a Palestinian State based on pre-1967 Borders, there would be areas of Israel that would have less than 10 miles between the Palestinian border and the Mediterranean sea, which they would never stand for ever, it would compromise them far too much militarily. [Post edited 4 Jul 2023 13:42]
|
Agreed. The occupied territories have slowly but surely become a de facto extension of Israel and the Palestinians are being colonised and pressured out of existence.
A two-state solution has never been further away – but that’s by design.
I now subscribe to Peter Beinart’s view that the only solution is a one-state solution where Palestinians have the same rights protected by law. | |
| |
| |
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
