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Reply | How is repeatedly whipping a horse
at 23:20 26 Jul 2024
That isn’t what I said. You are just explaining the human POV.
When determine if a difference in intent is important to an outcome, you compare two different intents, and see if they affect an outcome. That’s basic logic, as you know.
You don’t compare an intent to an accident.
Factory farming isn’t done by waiting for animals to accidentally die.
Dressage isn’t doing by waiting for a horse to accidentally burst into a waltz.
You clearly started this by comparing those two things. The intent to eat meat, the intent to make a horse dance.
Your opening point was one was worse than the other.
Your opening is it is much more cruel to hit an animal, to make it dance, than to farm it and send it to an abattoir.
Because of intent, to entertain vs eat.
And part of your reasoning is now, that it doesn’t matter what an animal feels when making that comparison.
Oxford Dictionary describes cruelty as, “Willfully causing pain or suffering to others, or feeling no concern about it”
So, your justification for choosing one over the other, is disregarding what the animal feels.
Now you haven’t countered a single argument that farming animals causes pain, distress and fear.
That is not disputed, even by farmers and people that run abattoirs.
Surely you have just proved that eating animals is cruel, since you disregarded what an animal feels, in assessing a comparison that affects the animal. You are not concerned about the animal POV, only whether humans are enjoying dancing or steaks.
There are plenty of people that are willing to state they value their desire to eat meat, above the pain and cruelty caused, and the damage to the environment, and the knock on effects on humans, by farming animals.
That is a much more logically consistent approach, rather than dismissing the feelings of animals when convenient. |
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Reply | Jordan James
at 18:32 26 Jul 2024
Hmmm, I wonder would Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior judge Jordan James justifiable in joining us. |
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Reply | Caption Competition
at 18:20 26 Jul 2024
Where’s Wally live opens with unfavourable reviews by the critics. |
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Reply | How is repeatedly whipping a horse
at 13:53 26 Jul 2024
A useful definition to inform your debate:
Accident:
something bad that happens that is not expected or intended and that often damages something or injures someone:
Accident = no intent.
The origin of the debate was that the intent was important.
“ Clearly harming an animal for no good reason” (horse dancing) “is more cruel than farming them for food”
E.g. intending to hurt an animal for no good reason is worse than intending to hurt an animal for food.
As you have perfectly well expressed, as have others, the consequence experienced by the recipient of the intended act, is not a function of the intention behind the act. |
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Reply | How is repeatedly whipping a horse
at 22:45 25 Jul 2024
A swerve, would be if I attempted a response but avoided directly answering a direct question.
See some examples above.
What I am doing is a refusal. |
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Reply | How is repeatedly whipping a horse
at 22:09 25 Jul 2024
I haven’t quoted Greek Philosophers, I have referenced them.
A long time ago, you were having a very mature debate with GB. I used a musing by Spinoza, to suggest that you were making a very valid argument. It frustrated GB, amused you.
You appreciated the reference and clever quoting then. Sigh….how times change…
I remember it well, I mean who gets to use Spinoza’s writings nowadays, amiright!?
Anyhoo
In the past whenever anyone has asked me a direct question, I have directly answered them, in many debates on this topic, using the framing that someone wanted to debate within.
You didn’t extend me the same courtesy earlier, I did respond to you many times, you didn’t answer a simply question, and avoided many things I said, and dismissed my arguments as those of a five year old.
You really think I am going to address your points now? |
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Reply | How is repeatedly whipping a horse
at 21:13 25 Jul 2024
One of the first examples RAA was by a well known Greek Philosopher, and used a suggestion that an Ox could draw, how childish was he. But you are absolutely correct, you shouldn’t waste your time debating at the level of a 5 year old with me, you should spend your time having grown up conversations with the adults. |
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Reply | How is repeatedly whipping a horse
at 20:28 25 Jul 2024
So, first, thanks for responding, I am quite a fan of Greek Philosophy, I am a particular fan of the Socratic method and reductio ad absurdum, and as you may notice, I try, but I am not a comedian, to add lighthearted if not hilarious ways to express those arguments.
Clearly you understand this, but just to be explicit.
Your original proposition was cruelty was defined by a majority decision.
I took that premise, created a scenario, that is clearly absurd.
Roger and Rover experienced the same thing. What they experienced, what their bodies went through, the stress reaction and pain caused, is clearly not a function of the majority beliefs in those two countries. Each mammal experienced the same thing, it would be absurd to suggest other wise, hence the premise, majority decision determines cruelty is wrong.
I could extend that argument to intent as well. E.g. The mammals Roger and Rover go through exactly the same experience, but the intent of the person was different. Roger and Rover would have the same physical reaction, irrespective of intent. The cruelty experienced would be the same.
However, what you are trying to argue, is a an argument from necessity or utility.
E.g. because something was necessary, it justified the action.
The thing I was trying to work through with others was another RAA/Socratic dialogue.
E.g. the premise was, because the purpose of the cruel act was deemed as less valuable to humans, entertainment vs food, somehow the cruelty was worse. So my horse vs pig routine was to an attempt to start another Socratic dialogue.
But nobody wanted to play,  , just fire arrows. |
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Reply | How is repeatedly whipping a horse
at 19:20 25 Jul 2024
Grown up debate. Okay good.
Feel free to point out which of my previous posts weren’t grown up.
Anyhoo, on to the debate
I have a twin dogs.
One of them is in the U.K. Rover
It gets, kicked, trussed up, stored in a cage with its legs tied, killed, skinned and eaten.
One of them is in Korea. Roger
It gets, kicked, trussed up, stored in a cage with its legs tied, killed, skinned and eaten.
Presumably Rover was treated cruelly, and Roger wasn’t?
Alternatively both Roger and Rover are of the opinion that they were both treated equally and it was cruel?
What say you? |
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Reply | How is repeatedly whipping a horse
at 18:48 25 Jul 2024
So cruelty and morality is defined by a majority opinion.
Ah man, we didn’t have to give women the vote or give up slaves, how stupid were humans back in the day.
Morality, Ethics and Philosophy degrees are going to be sooo much easier to get now. |
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Reply | How is repeatedly whipping a horse
at 13:02 25 Jul 2024
Not really, what do you think happens when they get off the transport?
Why do you think some abattoirs have a cow they keep to led out other cows out of the transport. Also some farms have cows the are used to lead others into the transport.
Why have you avoided that the fight or flight response is linked to being killed and eaten.
You think your mammalian fight or fright brain chemistry, was from a common ancestor that was worried about objects falling over in another room.
They didn’t have rooms.
They had predictors.
When a herd of gazelles get attacked by a Lion, and they run away, and one of them gets eaten, do you not think that gazelles have a rough idea of what death is.
Or do you think they slow down, and just think that’s odd, Bob was here a second ago, I wonder what happened to him.
I thought you wanted to have a scientific discussion?
Are you disputing the evidence on how mammalian brains have evolved?
If you were interested you would find the scientific papers yourself.
I have been polite, tried to be informative, and discussed why, what you yourself called “presumptions” were indeed presumptions and incorrect.
“where they’re swiftly killed, not made to suffer over years, presumably”
They do suffer over years, and are not killed swiftly.
They are afraid, this is proved by science, because of the fear hormones in their blood streams.
So, back to you, why won’t you even answer the simple question, in the scenario, pig or horse? [Post edited 25 Jul 13:11]
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Reply | Woo-hoo! We're breaking records again - Go Humans!
at 22:25 24 Jul 2024
So errr, remember how cars didn’t have catalytic converters, and CFC’s were widely used, and acid rain was a thing.
I had a look at some of those stories, not all, but some of those stories lead to things like clean air acts in the US, catalytic converters and banning of CFC’s
That was back in the day when saving the planet was in the same category as helping old ladies across the road, and not kicking dogs, i.e. not that controversial and generally seen as a good thing.
So some progress was made. |
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Reply | How is repeatedly whipping a horse
at 21:55 24 Jul 2024
Yes.
What do you think fear is?
What do you think fight/flight/freeze responses are for, especially in prey animals.
And you do know mammals can smell blood, and have a reaction to that.
Have you seen the studies on Elephants morning their dead?
As I said before, you can write poems about fear of death. Other mammals can’t.
But the part of your brain that fears being eaten by a predator, is from a common mammalian ancestor. That is an evolutionary fact.
If you really want to, watch some videos of cows trying to escape abattoirs.
Then, if you want to read some scientific papers on why they recommend laying out abattoirs in certain ways, so animals don’t see the other animals being killed.
So back to you, in my sample question, pig or horse? |
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Reply | The Biggest Challenge of my Life
at 20:44 24 Jul 2024
Now, if I had to have guessed which was the personal trainer,…well…… I would have felt a bit sorry for the tall fella that looks like they are about to be worked hard. |
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Reply | How is repeatedly whipping a horse
at 17:45 24 Jul 2024
They do know they are going to their death.
Cows, are repeatedly impregnated, and have their calves taken away from them. You can observe cows braying and exhibiting signs of distress, when this happens. You can also measure stress hormones.
The same stress hormones, that you have. Both you and a cow have evolved from a common ancestor, and have similar brain chemistry.
You don’t have to have experience of being either, you just have to understand the science of evolution, and how you, the horse, the cow, and other mammals will have very similar stress/fear/pain reactions, that will include feeling loss, when something like a friend or child is taken way from you.
I think you missed the point I was using exaggeration for.
Your argument previously was from the point of view of the human in the situation.
E.g. is the human getting a benefit that is justifiable from a human point of view, from the thing that is done to an animal.
I would suggest the point of view you should consider is that of your fellow mammal.
Which would you choose the horse or the pig? |
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Reply | How is repeatedly whipping a horse
at 15:19 24 Jul 2024
I also wanted to tackle the free range thing:
Your farmed animal that is even free range, will typically still be having most of its food from feed.
That feed is usually a combination of things including grains, pulses and beans.
To deliver protein to a human, it is more efficient in terms of land and water to eat beans etc directly, not have an animal eat and store the protein for you.
All that extra land and water that is used to feed your animals, is land that is taken away from the environment and placing that land into the factory farming industry.
So environments that contain animals, are increasingly being destroyed to create animal feed.
These animals don’t get re-homed.
And of course, that has an impact on climate change, which impacts the human mammal. |
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Reply | How is repeatedly whipping a horse
at 15:09 24 Jul 2024
As a mammal, what would you prefer?
To be a horse or a pig. The latter case, the pertinent points being, you and the mammals you grew up with and formed a bond with will be stuffed into a transport, you will see the other animals killed, you will be terrified and be lead to your death, and you will still be in your youth.
Or reluctantly do some dancing get whipped a bit and then serve out your retirement in a field with other horses, possible hot ones that you get to have sex with.
By the way, anyone doubting that animals feel terror and get scared, should consider science stuff like evolution, fight/flight/freeze reactions, and the level of stress hormones, like adrenaline, that can be found in bodies after death.
The real difference when it comes to things like fear, is you can write a poem about it, a pig can’t, apart from that….. |
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