| Nasty Party, Evil, taking pride in f*cking over the poor and needy.... 13:31 - May 18 with 17467 views | itfcjoe |
...and countless other examples.
Until the hard left drops this pathetic talk then they are not going to win over the floating voters.
All it does is further put up the shields for those who have or do vote Tory. The Tories want the best for the country but just have a different way of going about achieving that. |  |
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| Nasty Party, Evil, taking pride in f*cking over the poor and needy.... on 19:49 - May 18 with 1843 views | Footballpete |
| Nasty Party, Evil, taking pride in f*cking over the poor and needy.... on 19:37 - May 18 by Ryorry |
Labou's roots were in the late 19th & early 20thC! based on Trades Unions, heavy manufacturing and transport industries.
All that is simply irrelevant to our 21stC high tech, mobile, more connected world. The Labour Party will be forever stuffed if it looks backwards; it needs to reinvent itself and move forward if it's to be a relevant and wanted party for 2017-> |
For Labour to return to it's "roots", it needs to engage more with those who work in call centres, the service industry etc who are not currently represented by the unions or indeed anybody in particular. They are the 21st century's equivalent of who they were formed in order to represent. They are the workers who are desperate for representation at this time. At least that's my opinion. |  |
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| Nasty Party, Evil, taking pride in f*cking over the poor and needy.... on 19:57 - May 18 with 1824 views | Ryorry |
| Nasty Party, Evil, taking pride in f*cking over the poor and needy.... on 19:49 - May 18 by Footballpete |
For Labour to return to it's "roots", it needs to engage more with those who work in call centres, the service industry etc who are not currently represented by the unions or indeed anybody in particular. They are the 21st century's equivalent of who they were formed in order to represent. They are the workers who are desperate for representation at this time. At least that's my opinion. |
I agree! |  |
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| Nasty Party, Evil, taking pride in f*cking over the poor and needy.... on 20:00 - May 18 with 1817 views | Ryorry |
| Nasty Party, Evil, taking pride in f*cking over the poor and needy.... on 18:33 - May 18 by Gromheort |
Training is pretty open: "The training is suitable for both new and experienced activists. It will cover the basics of door knocking, how to find common ground with voters, linking policy to the issues that matter to people, and how to answer challenging questions. The session will be very active and participatory, while also providing practical advice and materials to use when campaigning"
I'm talking politics as that is the most important issue at the mo. Footie officially starts when we move past empty transfer links |
I'm sorry, but if you need to be *taught* "how to find common ground with voters", heaven help the Labour Party. | |
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| Nasty Party, Evil, taking pride in f*cking over the poor and needy.... on 20:01 - May 18 with 1813 views | Ryorry |
| Nasty Party, Evil, taking pride in f*cking over the poor and needy.... on 17:57 - May 18 by Footballpete |
Members of those Parties (or tiny left wing sects) have certainly attempted to get involved with Momentum, but to describe it as a front again massively overstates the size and competence of said organisations. Most Momentum activists I've met are either young and relatively new to left wing politics, or old Labour activists who have been inspired by, or rejoined due to, Corbynn's leadership.
The SWP, CPB,Workers Liberty would love people to believe that they hold that level of influence but they don't, mostly down to their meetings and dogma having all the excitement of a bible study group (and often based on a similar level of reality). |
"having all the excitement of a bible study group (and often based on a similar level of reality). "
'nuff said really! | |
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| Nasty Party, Evil, taking pride in f*cking over the poor and needy.... on 20:04 - May 18 with 1804 views | Darth_Koont |
| Nasty Party, Evil, taking pride in f*cking over the poor and needy.... on 19:37 - May 18 by Ryorry |
Labou's roots were in the late 19th & early 20thC! based on Trades Unions, heavy manufacturing and transport industries.
All that is simply irrelevant to our 21stC high tech, mobile, more connected world. The Labour Party will be forever stuffed if it looks backwards; it needs to reinvent itself and move forward if it's to be a relevant and wanted party for 2017-> |
For the many, not the few is social democracy. They don't (and don't need to) represent workers any more per se.
The big battle is social equality across the board which starts with lifting the bottom end of society and those otherwise disadvantaged and excluded.
I can never understand people taking excessive pride in a nation that doesn't have this as its main focus. It's like celebrating being an awful but wealthy parent. |  |
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| Nasty Party, Evil, taking pride in f*cking over the poor and needy.... on 20:07 - May 18 with 1801 views | Ryorry |
| Nasty Party, Evil, taking pride in f*cking over the poor and needy.... on 20:04 - May 18 by Darth_Koont |
For the many, not the few is social democracy. They don't (and don't need to) represent workers any more per se.
The big battle is social equality across the board which starts with lifting the bottom end of society and those otherwise disadvantaged and excluded.
I can never understand people taking excessive pride in a nation that doesn't have this as its main focus. It's like celebrating being an awful but wealthy parent. |
Agreed, mostly. I do think workers at the bottom of the scale (eg care workers, topical today; call centre workers as Pete said, essential service workers etc etc) need properly representing and fighting for - but the LP itself doesn't seem to want to reform 20th C thinking into 21st C practicality. [Post edited 18 May 2017 20:11]
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| Nasty Party, Evil, taking pride in f*cking over the poor and needy.... on 20:28 - May 18 with 1772 views | Clapham_Junction |
| Nasty Party, Evil, taking pride in f*cking over the poor and needy.... on 17:31 - May 18 by lowhouseblue |
it's a front for the swp and all their fellow travellers. militant for the 2010s. little entryist parties who know that there's no pointing trying to get elected in their own name. |
As has been pointed out, these claims don't really add up; those organisations have tiny membership, whereas the wave of people joining the Labour Party has been huge. From what I've seen its mainly former Labour members returning to the party and a younger generation who are enthused by a major party leader who is willing to challenge the depressing status quo. I have seen a few people with no previous interest in politics get into it thanks to him (including my girlfriend who had never even voted before but joined so she could vote for him in the leadership election)
Personally I think the Labour MPs and members who have loudly objected to Corbyn and refused to accept his win in 2015 have done far more damage to the party than he has. The constant drip feeding of criticism to the media has helped alienate potential voters whilst failing to weaken his position. I think the worst aspect has been their refusal to join the shadow cabinet, meaning the party have to rely on the likes of the shambolic Diane Abbott as their public face or voice. Imagine how much better the party would come across if they had competent people going on the radio to speak about their policies.
Unfortunately I think a heavy defeat in the election could lead the right of the party to use it to claim the party can't win on a left-wing manifesto (which contains a lot of popular policies), when the main reason for the defeat will probably the general unpopularity of Corbyn and his shadow cabinet. This will just lead to another civil war in the party, keeping it out of power for longer. The best thing that can happen is that Corbyn is replaced by someone with a similar outlook but without the baggage that the tabloids crucify him for - Clive Lewis would be an obvious candidate. |  | | |
| Nasty Party, Evil, taking pride in f*cking over the poor and needy.... on 20:29 - May 18 with 1766 views | Gromheort |
| Nasty Party, Evil, taking pride in f*cking over the poor and needy.... on 19:37 - May 18 by Ryorry |
Labou's roots were in the late 19th & early 20thC! based on Trades Unions, heavy manufacturing and transport industries.
All that is simply irrelevant to our 21stC high tech, mobile, more connected world. The Labour Party will be forever stuffed if it looks backwards; it needs to reinvent itself and move forward if it's to be a relevant and wanted party for 2017-> |
Labour's needs are straightforward: more democracy. The NEC has to be changed and we have to engage the membership explosion. Getting that change, given the right of the party prefer a more authoritarian outlook, is difficult. |  | | |
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| Nasty Party, Evil, taking pride in f*cking over the poor and needy.... on 20:29 - May 18 with 1763 views | Darth_Koont |
| Nasty Party, Evil, taking pride in f*cking over the poor and needy.... on 20:28 - May 18 by Clapham_Junction |
As has been pointed out, these claims don't really add up; those organisations have tiny membership, whereas the wave of people joining the Labour Party has been huge. From what I've seen its mainly former Labour members returning to the party and a younger generation who are enthused by a major party leader who is willing to challenge the depressing status quo. I have seen a few people with no previous interest in politics get into it thanks to him (including my girlfriend who had never even voted before but joined so she could vote for him in the leadership election)
Personally I think the Labour MPs and members who have loudly objected to Corbyn and refused to accept his win in 2015 have done far more damage to the party than he has. The constant drip feeding of criticism to the media has helped alienate potential voters whilst failing to weaken his position. I think the worst aspect has been their refusal to join the shadow cabinet, meaning the party have to rely on the likes of the shambolic Diane Abbott as their public face or voice. Imagine how much better the party would come across if they had competent people going on the radio to speak about their policies.
Unfortunately I think a heavy defeat in the election could lead the right of the party to use it to claim the party can't win on a left-wing manifesto (which contains a lot of popular policies), when the main reason for the defeat will probably the general unpopularity of Corbyn and his shadow cabinet. This will just lead to another civil war in the party, keeping it out of power for longer. The best thing that can happen is that Corbyn is replaced by someone with a similar outlook but without the baggage that the tabloids crucify him for - Clive Lewis would be an obvious candidate. |
Well said. Can't disagree with any of that. | |
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| Nasty Party, Evil, taking pride in f*cking over the poor and needy.... on 20:35 - May 18 with 1751 views | Darth_Koont |
| Nasty Party, Evil, taking pride in f*cking over the poor and needy.... on 20:07 - May 18 by Ryorry |
Agreed, mostly. I do think workers at the bottom of the scale (eg care workers, topical today; call centre workers as Pete said, essential service workers etc etc) need properly representing and fighting for - but the LP itself doesn't seem to want to reform 20th C thinking into 21st C practicality. [Post edited 18 May 2017 20:11]
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You say that but their manifesto follows the more advanced, socially just and for want of a better word "happy" countries in Europe. For me, responsible 21st century politics is all about ensuring you keep and build on the major advances made in the latter half of the 20th century. And keep in check the runaway train of neo-liberal dogma that seduces by the promise of riches for the few, a comfortable life for the middle, and screw the rest. | |
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| Nasty Party, Evil, taking pride in f*cking over the poor and needy.... on 20:50 - May 18 with 1717 views | lowhouseblue |
| Nasty Party, Evil, taking pride in f*cking over the poor and needy.... on 20:28 - May 18 by Clapham_Junction |
As has been pointed out, these claims don't really add up; those organisations have tiny membership, whereas the wave of people joining the Labour Party has been huge. From what I've seen its mainly former Labour members returning to the party and a younger generation who are enthused by a major party leader who is willing to challenge the depressing status quo. I have seen a few people with no previous interest in politics get into it thanks to him (including my girlfriend who had never even voted before but joined so she could vote for him in the leadership election)
Personally I think the Labour MPs and members who have loudly objected to Corbyn and refused to accept his win in 2015 have done far more damage to the party than he has. The constant drip feeding of criticism to the media has helped alienate potential voters whilst failing to weaken his position. I think the worst aspect has been their refusal to join the shadow cabinet, meaning the party have to rely on the likes of the shambolic Diane Abbott as their public face or voice. Imagine how much better the party would come across if they had competent people going on the radio to speak about their policies.
Unfortunately I think a heavy defeat in the election could lead the right of the party to use it to claim the party can't win on a left-wing manifesto (which contains a lot of popular policies), when the main reason for the defeat will probably the general unpopularity of Corbyn and his shadow cabinet. This will just lead to another civil war in the party, keeping it out of power for longer. The best thing that can happen is that Corbyn is replaced by someone with a similar outlook but without the baggage that the tabloids crucify him for - Clive Lewis would be an obvious candidate. |
a lot of the key figures in momentum have come from stop the war, swp etc. i don't doubt that lots of the rank and file are new to politics and have joined just to support corbyn.
you make two assertions (i) that when corbyn is unpopular that's because of the people in the labour party who haven't supported him; and (ii) the manifesto is popular. both assertions are false.
there are individual proposals within the manifesto which could be popular, were championed by miliband and would be in any labour manifesto. but collectively the manifesto is a collection cf commitments which don't add up and which voters don't trust. the figures don't add up, the desire to make the state bigger than any time since 1949 isn't popular, and voters don't believe that the proposals are safe or deliverable. it is not a credible programme, it is not a manifesto that a lot of labour voters will support. not all labour voters want to bash corporations or believe that business is evil - they think corbyn believes that.
corbyn is unpopular because he has shown himself not to share the values of the people we need to vote labour. his views on defence, on patriotism, on security, on law and order, benefits etc are not popular with many of the people he needs to vote for him. he is not perceived as competent or credible or as sharing their values. the polls on this are incredibly clear.
you can say the manifesto proposals are popular, they're popular ion Facebook - someone of them certainly are. but as cohesive programme - across the full range policies - the voters will reject it just as they did in 1983. in 3 weeks time you're going o see the voters verdict on what corbyn has offered. you need to listen to them. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Nasty Party, Evil, taking pride in f*cking over the poor and needy.... on 20:51 - May 18 with 1716 views | Ryorry |
| Nasty Party, Evil, taking pride in f*cking over the poor and needy.... on 20:28 - May 18 by Clapham_Junction |
As has been pointed out, these claims don't really add up; those organisations have tiny membership, whereas the wave of people joining the Labour Party has been huge. From what I've seen its mainly former Labour members returning to the party and a younger generation who are enthused by a major party leader who is willing to challenge the depressing status quo. I have seen a few people with no previous interest in politics get into it thanks to him (including my girlfriend who had never even voted before but joined so she could vote for him in the leadership election)
Personally I think the Labour MPs and members who have loudly objected to Corbyn and refused to accept his win in 2015 have done far more damage to the party than he has. The constant drip feeding of criticism to the media has helped alienate potential voters whilst failing to weaken his position. I think the worst aspect has been their refusal to join the shadow cabinet, meaning the party have to rely on the likes of the shambolic Diane Abbott as their public face or voice. Imagine how much better the party would come across if they had competent people going on the radio to speak about their policies.
Unfortunately I think a heavy defeat in the election could lead the right of the party to use it to claim the party can't win on a left-wing manifesto (which contains a lot of popular policies), when the main reason for the defeat will probably the general unpopularity of Corbyn and his shadow cabinet. This will just lead to another civil war in the party, keeping it out of power for longer. The best thing that can happen is that Corbyn is replaced by someone with a similar outlook but without the baggage that the tabloids crucify him for - Clive Lewis would be an obvious candidate. |
"Personally I think the Labour MPs and members who have loudly objected to Corbyn and refused to accept his win in 2015 have done far more damage to the party than he has."
But you can't blame people for looking at Corbyn, his gaffes, what he *hasn't* done (eg in the run up to the referendum last year) and seeing someone who just isn't a credible leader, totally irrespective of anything the media might say about him. I don't take pay any attention to what the media say about him, I simply listen to what he says and watch his body language. Any party leader has to be seen as a possible PM, and therefore competent. Corbyn just doesn't come across as so (that doesn't mean I'm saying May is!). Even allowing for possible ulterior motives, if labour MPs who were closest to him, seeing him for themselves on a regular basis unfiltered through the media eyes, can't believe in him, that says much to me. | |
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| Nasty Party, Evil, taking pride in f*cking over the poor and needy.... on 20:59 - May 18 with 1698 views | Darth_Koont |
| Nasty Party, Evil, taking pride in f*cking over the poor and needy.... on 20:00 - May 18 by Ryorry |
I'm sorry, but if you need to be *taught* "how to find common ground with voters", heaven help the Labour Party. |
That's Theresa May in a nutshell - and she's the leader of our country  | |
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| Nasty Party, Evil, taking pride in f*cking over the poor and needy.... on 21:00 - May 18 with 1680 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Nasty Party, Evil, taking pride in f*cking over the poor and needy.... on 20:51 - May 18 by Ryorry |
"Personally I think the Labour MPs and members who have loudly objected to Corbyn and refused to accept his win in 2015 have done far more damage to the party than he has."
But you can't blame people for looking at Corbyn, his gaffes, what he *hasn't* done (eg in the run up to the referendum last year) and seeing someone who just isn't a credible leader, totally irrespective of anything the media might say about him. I don't take pay any attention to what the media say about him, I simply listen to what he says and watch his body language. Any party leader has to be seen as a possible PM, and therefore competent. Corbyn just doesn't come across as so (that doesn't mean I'm saying May is!). Even allowing for possible ulterior motives, if labour MPs who were closest to him, seeing him for themselves on a regular basis unfiltered through the media eyes, can't believe in him, that says much to me. |
Well respected people like Hillary Benn tried to serve in his cabinet and they were undermined and driven out. |  |
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| Nasty Party, Evil, taking pride in f*cking over the poor and needy.... on 21:04 - May 18 with 1682 views | Clapham_Junction |
| Nasty Party, Evil, taking pride in f*cking over the poor and needy.... on 20:50 - May 18 by lowhouseblue |
a lot of the key figures in momentum have come from stop the war, swp etc. i don't doubt that lots of the rank and file are new to politics and have joined just to support corbyn.
you make two assertions (i) that when corbyn is unpopular that's because of the people in the labour party who haven't supported him; and (ii) the manifesto is popular. both assertions are false.
there are individual proposals within the manifesto which could be popular, were championed by miliband and would be in any labour manifesto. but collectively the manifesto is a collection cf commitments which don't add up and which voters don't trust. the figures don't add up, the desire to make the state bigger than any time since 1949 isn't popular, and voters don't believe that the proposals are safe or deliverable. it is not a credible programme, it is not a manifesto that a lot of labour voters will support. not all labour voters want to bash corporations or believe that business is evil - they think corbyn believes that.
corbyn is unpopular because he has shown himself not to share the values of the people we need to vote labour. his views on defence, on patriotism, on security, on law and order, benefits etc are not popular with many of the people he needs to vote for him. he is not perceived as competent or credible or as sharing their values. the polls on this are incredibly clear.
you can say the manifesto proposals are popular, they're popular ion Facebook - someone of them certainly are. but as cohesive programme - across the full range policies - the voters will reject it just as they did in 1983. in 3 weeks time you're going o see the voters verdict on what corbyn has offered. you need to listen to them. |
I didn't make either of those assertions though.
I didn't say Corbyn was unpopular because people haven't supported him. I said the party was unpopular because they haven't.
I also didn't say the manifesto was popular. I said it contained popular policies, which you appear to agree with. | | | |
| Nasty Party, Evil, taking pride in f*cking over the poor and needy.... on 21:07 - May 18 with 1664 views | Gromheort |
| Nasty Party, Evil, taking pride in f*cking over the poor and needy.... on 21:00 - May 18 by GlasgowBlue |
Well respected people like Hillary Benn tried to serve in his cabinet and they were undermined and driven out. |
That's an amusing claim, given he was the ringleader of the failed coup attempt | | | |
| Nasty Party, Evil, taking pride in f*cking over the poor and needy.... on 21:13 - May 18 with 1640 views | lowhouseblue |
| Nasty Party, Evil, taking pride in f*cking over the poor and needy.... on 21:04 - May 18 by Clapham_Junction |
I didn't make either of those assertions though.
I didn't say Corbyn was unpopular because people haven't supported him. I said the party was unpopular because they haven't.
I also didn't say the manifesto was popular. I said it contained popular policies, which you appear to agree with. |
in 126 pages it would be hard not to hit on a lot of things that are popular. but that doesn't add up to a programme which is supported or trusted or that people think can be achieved. in fact, the more you promise, with it all to be funded from taxes on the rich and companies, the less people believe it and the less they support it. and a manifesto isn't the most important thing. what matters far more is the sniff test of politics - do the voters trust you? corbyn and his team fail the sniff test.
by the way, on one other thing you mentioned. - clive lewis - extremely sadly he is in a very tough fight to even get re-elected. that is a measure of how bad things are. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Nasty Party, Evil, taking pride in f*cking over the poor and needy.... on 21:16 - May 18 with 1634 views | Gromheort |
| Nasty Party, Evil, taking pride in f*cking over the poor and needy.... on 21:13 - May 18 by lowhouseblue |
in 126 pages it would be hard not to hit on a lot of things that are popular. but that doesn't add up to a programme which is supported or trusted or that people think can be achieved. in fact, the more you promise, with it all to be funded from taxes on the rich and companies, the less people believe it and the less they support it. and a manifesto isn't the most important thing. what matters far more is the sniff test of politics - do the voters trust you? corbyn and his team fail the sniff test.
by the way, on one other thing you mentioned. - clive lewis - extremely sadly he is in a very tough fight to even get re-elected. that is a measure of how bad things are. |
Clive will win comfortably. Greens cosying up with the Tories hasn't helped the opposition to him | | | |
| Nasty Party, Evil, taking pride in f*cking over the poor and needy.... on 21:18 - May 18 with 1623 views | lowhouseblue |
| Nasty Party, Evil, taking pride in f*cking over the poor and needy.... on 21:16 - May 18 by Gromheort |
Clive will win comfortably. Greens cosying up with the Tories hasn't helped the opposition to him |
i hope you're right. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Nasty Party, Evil, taking pride in f*cking over the poor and needy.... on 21:18 - May 18 with 1612 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Nasty Party, Evil, taking pride in f*cking over the poor and needy.... on 21:13 - May 18 by lowhouseblue |
in 126 pages it would be hard not to hit on a lot of things that are popular. but that doesn't add up to a programme which is supported or trusted or that people think can be achieved. in fact, the more you promise, with it all to be funded from taxes on the rich and companies, the less people believe it and the less they support it. and a manifesto isn't the most important thing. what matters far more is the sniff test of politics - do the voters trust you? corbyn and his team fail the sniff test.
by the way, on one other thing you mentioned. - clive lewis - extremely sadly he is in a very tough fight to even get re-elected. that is a measure of how bad things are. |
UEA give the Tories a 74% chance of taking Clive Lewis' seat. | |
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| Nasty Party, Evil, taking pride in f*cking over the poor and needy.... on 21:27 - May 18 with 1603 views | Gromheort |
| Nasty Party, Evil, taking pride in f*cking over the poor and needy.... on 21:18 - May 18 by GlasgowBlue |
UEA give the Tories a 74% chance of taking Clive Lewis' seat. |
Very small samples and uses simulation techniques that work better in particular constituencies. Predicted better for SNP, less well for Tory/Labour/Lib Dem | | | |
| Nasty Party, Evil, taking pride in f*cking over the poor and needy.... on 22:07 - May 18 with 1574 views | Herbivore |
| Nasty Party, Evil, taking pride in f*cking over the poor and needy.... on 21:13 - May 18 by lowhouseblue |
in 126 pages it would be hard not to hit on a lot of things that are popular. but that doesn't add up to a programme which is supported or trusted or that people think can be achieved. in fact, the more you promise, with it all to be funded from taxes on the rich and companies, the less people believe it and the less they support it. and a manifesto isn't the most important thing. what matters far more is the sniff test of politics - do the voters trust you? corbyn and his team fail the sniff test.
by the way, on one other thing you mentioned. - clive lewis - extremely sadly he is in a very tough fight to even get re-elected. that is a measure of how bad things are. |
Clive will win comfortably. He's very popular in his constituency. |  |
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| Nasty Party, Evil, taking pride in f*cking over the poor and needy.... on 22:35 - May 18 with 1529 views | ElderGrizzly |
I like this summary of the manifesto
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| Nasty Party, Evil, taking pride in f*cking over the poor and needy.... on 22:36 - May 18 with 1527 views | Ryorry |
| Nasty Party, Evil, taking pride in f*cking over the poor and needy.... on 20:35 - May 18 by Darth_Koont |
You say that but their manifesto follows the more advanced, socially just and for want of a better word "happy" countries in Europe. For me, responsible 21st century politics is all about ensuring you keep and build on the major advances made in the latter half of the 20th century. And keep in check the runaway train of neo-liberal dogma that seduces by the promise of riches for the few, a comfortable life for the middle, and screw the rest. |
Sorry, I think I must have upped the wrong post in my haste to get away to my pint of tea, as I've no idea what you mean by "the runaway train of neo-liberal dogma"!  | |
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