| Why I'm not voting Labour 22:27 - May 29 with 36435 views | JKITFC1 |
- Manifesto figures don't add up; unless the re-nationalization of rail, water etc. is going to be costless?
- As a payer of corporation tax, I'd much rather pay the Conservative proposed 17% rate to Labour's 26%, I believe in a time of economic uncertainty, it's important to help retain foreign businesses by reducing costs, rather than disincentivise them to stay in the UK.
- Corbyn will take an EU deal at any cost.
- Corbyn's IRA sympathies, as well as calling the death of Bin Laden a 'tragedy'.
Furthermore, Corbyn doesn't have the bottle to pull the trigger on terrorism. (below)
EDIT:
- McDonnell doesn't know bonds are debt instruments.
"We won't borrow, we will issue bonds."
- Two years ago Labour's shadow chancellor called for MI5 to be disbanded. Now Corbyn expects us to believe there will more money for them.
[Post edited 29 May 2017 22:58]
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| Why I'm not voting Labour on 00:39 - May 30 with 4739 views | Gromheort |
| Why I'm not voting Labour on 00:35 - May 30 by MJallday |
your response doesn't really deserve a reply. but i felt i should
* The banking crisis in 2008 was only PART of the issue - it was not the whole issue. in fact there were several articles at the time explaining how labour overspending caused it. milliband always denied it - however he also acknowledged labour never stopped it.
* Keir Starmer is nothing to do with current brexit negotiations. He was the DPP previously. (a supposedly politically neutral position btw) and now hes the shadow sec for state. he's not in a position to currently negotiate.
* Boris is also NOTHING to do with brexit negotiations. they are handled by david davies and tim barrow. they've intentially kept boris away - i undertstand on account of being a bit of a d1ck.
* your assumption on low paid jobs being subsidised by the rest of us is flawed . why would this happen? tell me why would the british taxpayer subsidise warehouse workers in a factory in wigan? subsidisation doesn't work like that...
* age is a factor - explain why it isn't? you must have a relative who is 68-73. you think they can do 80-90 hour weeks? running around the country? leading from the front?
its not a job for someone who should be enjoying retirement, frankly.
[Post edited 30 May 2017 0:38]
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The crisis resulted from US financial corruption. It was always going to spread to Britain, given our over-reliance on the banking sector.
Bit rick to refer to overspending. First, debt increased further under the Tories (largely because of irrational economic policy generated by austerity). Second, following the financial crisis, there was a global appreciation of Keynesianism and the importance of stimulus. |  | | |
| Why I'm not voting Labour on 00:52 - May 30 with 4720 views | MJallday |
| Why I'm not voting Labour on 00:39 - May 30 by Gromheort |
The crisis resulted from US financial corruption. It was always going to spread to Britain, given our over-reliance on the banking sector.
Bit rick to refer to overspending. First, debt increased further under the Tories (largely because of irrational economic policy generated by austerity). Second, following the financial crisis, there was a global appreciation of Keynesianism and the importance of stimulus. |
oh don't get me wrong, our economy is intrincly linked with the US, Japan and others.
I'm also not saying the banking crisis it was labours fault, far from it. what i am saying is they (by their own acknowledgement ) could have helped it . they didn't. they failed.
(To be honest, we should have done what Germany and Austria did - and introduced stimulus programs - which is what i think is what you are eluding to)
what happened afterwards was a vicious spiral, fed by low interest rates and high levels of consumer debt and a housing boom - with no sign of when its going to go bang.
by the way, spoiler alert - it will go bang :) just not sure when..... |  |
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| Why I'm not voting Labour on 00:53 - May 30 with 4718 views | caught-in-limbo |
| Why I'm not voting Labour on 00:17 - May 30 by MJallday |
that made me laugh much more than it should :)
ill never attack anyone for their beliefs. I don't care if Corbyn is in bed with the IRA or May flys out of her window at night and bites people in the neck.. how people vote is down to them. The only think I'm genuinely annoyed about is people believing the hype on social media - you've all seen it - the endless "memes" , supposed facts and figures.
its not that hard to go and look at the manifestos and make up your own mind . i did.
i have to say, i was really impressed with the green party. i love their education policy - then they f**ked me off with their foreign policy to the point it would become an issue.
All i ask anyone reading is whichever way you vote, just vote. that's your democratic right and its a privilege.
Ask yourself this - " Did our grandfathers chip shops get bombed for nothing?" |
"All i ask anyone reading is whichever way you vote, just vote. that's your democratic right and its a privilege. "
Obliging or pressuring people to vote is the antithesis of freedom of expression - one of the inalienable rights enjoyed in a democracy. |  |
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| Why I'm not voting Labour on 00:59 - May 30 with 4705 views | Gromheort |
| Why I'm not voting Labour on 00:52 - May 30 by MJallday |
oh don't get me wrong, our economy is intrincly linked with the US, Japan and others.
I'm also not saying the banking crisis it was labours fault, far from it. what i am saying is they (by their own acknowledgement ) could have helped it . they didn't. they failed.
(To be honest, we should have done what Germany and Austria did - and introduced stimulus programs - which is what i think is what you are eluding to)
what happened afterwards was a vicious spiral, fed by low interest rates and high levels of consumer debt and a housing boom - with no sign of when its going to go bang.
by the way, spoiler alert - it will go bang :) just not sure when..... |
New Labour can only be blamed for one aspect: a failure to regulate the financial sector. However, that only informs us that we should vote Corbyn. We'd certainly then see a government prepared to control the market failures associated with financial short term profiteering. | | | |
| Why I'm not voting Labour on 01:01 - May 30 with 4696 views | HARRY10 |
| Why I'm not voting Labour on 00:35 - May 30 by MJallday |
your response doesn't really deserve a reply. but i felt i should
* The banking crisis in 2008 was only PART of the issue - it was not the whole issue. in fact there were several articles at the time explaining how labour overspending caused it. milliband always denied it - however he also acknowledged labour never stopped it.
* Keir Starmer is nothing to do with current brexit negotiations. He was the DPP previously. (a supposedly politically neutral position btw) and now hes the shadow sec for state. he's not in a position to currently negotiate.
* Boris is also NOTHING to do with brexit negotiations. they are handled by david davies and tim barrow. they've intentially kept boris away - i undertstand on account of being a bit of a d1ck.
* your assumption on low paid jobs being subsidised by the rest of us is flawed . why would this happen? tell me why would the british taxpayer subsidise warehouse workers in a factory in wigan? subsidisation doesn't work like that...
* age is a factor - explain why it isn't? you must have a relative who is 68-73. you think they can do 80-90 hour weeks? running around the country? leading from the front?
its not a job for someone who should be enjoying retirement, frankly.
[Post edited 30 May 2017 0:38]
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Dear me, talk about over egging the pudding
The banking crisi was ONLY PART OF IT ! ! ! So why did it have the same effects elsewhere. Did Labour supposedly overspend in the rest of those economies ?
You stated " they are ill equipped to handle brexit negotiations" then when I point out the competence of one of their negotiators you tell us that he " they are ill equipped to handle brexit negotiations" !
You further add that "Boris is also NOTHING to do with brexit negotiations" really ? nothing ?
"your assumption on low paid jobs being subsidised by the rest of us is flawed " flawed in the sense that they have their low paid jobs made topped up with tax credits and housing benefit - please explain to us all where that money comes from
"age is a factor" well not for David Davis who is the chief negoitiator (as it stands) who is actually older than Jeremy Corbyn
you do not seem to have any idea of what you are talking about and have merely cobbled together a few myths and lies to put up a case | | | |
| Why I'm not voting Labour on 01:05 - May 30 with 4687 views | Gromheort |
| Why I'm not voting Labour on 00:53 - May 30 by caught-in-limbo |
"All i ask anyone reading is whichever way you vote, just vote. that's your democratic right and its a privilege. "
Obliging or pressuring people to vote is the antithesis of freedom of expression - one of the inalienable rights enjoyed in a democracy. |
Did you see the accusations that the Tories were buying 'black arts' advertising and pricing out 'please vote' campaign targeting the young?
I'd go with compulsory voting. We then have the right to spoil our paper. There's no attack on freedom with that. | | | |
| Why I'm not voting Labour on 01:21 - May 30 with 4672 views | FrowsyArmLarry |
| Why I'm not voting Labour on 22:35 - May 29 by J2BLUE |
God forbid they pay their staff a living wage. It's all about the profit. In fact, lets cut the minimum wage to £5 an hour so they make even more profit. That's definitely the answer. |
Or you could just work hard and do a well paid professional job, rather than expecting other people to do it and then subsidise you. |  | | |
| Why I'm not voting Labour on 01:23 - May 30 with 4670 views | FrowsyArmLarry |
| Why I'm not voting Labour on 00:39 - May 30 by Gromheort |
The crisis resulted from US financial corruption. It was always going to spread to Britain, given our over-reliance on the banking sector.
Bit rick to refer to overspending. First, debt increased further under the Tories (largely because of irrational economic policy generated by austerity). Second, following the financial crisis, there was a global appreciation of Keynesianism and the importance of stimulus. |
Unfiortunately a lot of that spending has gone into servicing the debt from the bank bailouts. | | | |
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| Why I'm not voting Labour on 01:26 - May 30 with 4662 views | caught-in-limbo |
| Why I'm not voting Labour on 01:05 - May 30 by Gromheort |
Did you see the accusations that the Tories were buying 'black arts' advertising and pricing out 'please vote' campaign targeting the young?
I'd go with compulsory voting. We then have the right to spoil our paper. There's no attack on freedom with that. |
Nooo, I've not seen the detailed snippets of the election lead up over there in the UK-
I think compulsory voting (as you describe) also makes no sense. In an ideal world, everyone would vote - but if the democratic system or the choices on offer are so hopeless, the people should be free not to endorse its very existence by abstaining.. | |
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| Why I'm not voting Labour on 01:28 - May 30 with 4655 views | Gromheort |
| Why I'm not voting Labour on 01:21 - May 30 by FrowsyArmLarry |
Or you could just work hard and do a well paid professional job, rather than expecting other people to do it and then subsidise you. |
In the bad old days of supply side economics we used to blame low wages on the individual: from not working hard enough, to the vicious 'mate, you're just stupid'. Those days disappeared with the realisation that supply side 'analysis' was really bobbins voodoo economics.
Britain has a low skilled equilibrium. That is a demand side phenomenon. A high minimum wage is a crucial part in eliminating this deficiency. | | | |
| Why I'm not voting Labour on 01:35 - May 30 with 4648 views | FrowsyArmLarry |
| Why I'm not voting Labour on 01:28 - May 30 by Gromheort |
In the bad old days of supply side economics we used to blame low wages on the individual: from not working hard enough, to the vicious 'mate, you're just stupid'. Those days disappeared with the realisation that supply side 'analysis' was really bobbins voodoo economics.
Britain has a low skilled equilibrium. That is a demand side phenomenon. A high minimum wage is a crucial part in eliminating this deficiency. |
And what are you going to do about foreign competition? | | | |
| Why I'm not voting Labour on 01:38 - May 30 with 4640 views | Gromheort |
| Why I'm not voting Labour on 01:35 - May 30 by FrowsyArmLarry |
And what are you going to do about foreign competition? |
Thatcher was one of the first to suggest that we needed low wages to compete. Eliminating the wages councils (and encouraging further lower wages through policies such as family credit), we went backwards. You compete through skills. And that is where Britain fails abysmally. We're not training enough. Of course that is also recognised by Corbyn's Labour... | | | |
| Why I'm not voting Labour on 01:42 - May 30 with 4629 views | FrowsyArmLarry |
| Why I'm not voting Labour on 01:38 - May 30 by Gromheort |
Thatcher was one of the first to suggest that we needed low wages to compete. Eliminating the wages councils (and encouraging further lower wages through policies such as family credit), we went backwards. You compete through skills. And that is where Britain fails abysmally. We're not training enough. Of course that is also recognised by Corbyn's Labour... |
I agree we aren't training enough but that's because we can source better labour from abroad without incurring those costs.... that's just tough and means there are more people that will have to struggle. It doesn't matter whether tories or lab get in on that score - both are only interested in subsidising the talent | | | |
| Why I'm not voting Labour on 06:41 - May 30 with 4591 views | Vic |
| Why I'm not voting Labour on 23:13 - May 29 by MJallday |
everyones reasons are their own
my reasons are :
* i believe labour will destroy the economy
- Their predecessors did (yes, we still remember "the note")
- they are ill equipped to handle brexit negotiations
- the economy needs stability - labour will not offer that
- they intend to tax individuals who they deem as "high earners" - but want people to work hard - this is contradictory
- their policys will drive away companies who will then take low paid jobs away
- they intend to get rid of zero hour contracts - which means employers will inevitably
do they same job with less people = higher unemployment
* i do not agree with their policy on trident
- the nuclear (trident) industry may cost 50bn - but it employs several hundred thousand people. its also a deterrent. in a world of increasing uncertainy it is better to have it - BUT
- corbyn has shown that he wont use it. he is uncredible as a force of a nuclear power.
* corbyn is a pensioner now. he will be 73 by the time of the next general election. do you think a 68 year old will be or should be running round the country? what about a 73 year old?
* i don't agree with the labour philosophy on immigration, green issues, or transport
i just cant vote for the party, but i cant vote for the man either.
[Post edited 29 May 2017 23:17]
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This!
We are fools if we ignore history and I don't ever remember a Labour government leaving the country stronger financially than when they took office. Every time, as far back as I remember (the 1960's) the Tories have had to come in and sort it out again.
Do I think Corbyn will be any different. Absolutely not!
Do I agree with everything the Tories say and do? no, not by a long way. do I disagree with everything labour say? No, not by a long way. But I simply don't trust them on record, and I just don't trust Corbyn (though I have to say he's done better than I thought he would/could in this election) |  |
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| Why I'm not voting Labour on 06:52 - May 30 with 4585 views | Superfrans |
| Why I'm not voting Labour on 00:35 - May 30 by MJallday |
your response doesn't really deserve a reply. but i felt i should
* The banking crisis in 2008 was only PART of the issue - it was not the whole issue. in fact there were several articles at the time explaining how labour overspending caused it. milliband always denied it - however he also acknowledged labour never stopped it.
* Keir Starmer is nothing to do with current brexit negotiations. He was the DPP previously. (a supposedly politically neutral position btw) and now hes the shadow sec for state. he's not in a position to currently negotiate.
* Boris is also NOTHING to do with brexit negotiations. they are handled by david davies and tim barrow. they've intentially kept boris away - i undertstand on account of being a bit of a d1ck.
* your assumption on low paid jobs being subsidised by the rest of us is flawed . why would this happen? tell me why would the british taxpayer subsidise warehouse workers in a factory in wigan? subsidisation doesn't work like that...
* age is a factor - explain why it isn't? you must have a relative who is 68-73. you think they can do 80-90 hour weeks? running around the country? leading from the front?
its not a job for someone who should be enjoying retirement, frankly.
[Post edited 30 May 2017 0:38]
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On spending, the Conservatives supported pretty much all of Labour's spending plans through the Nineties and Noughties.
On tax, corporation tax was at 28% until 2010 and has been slashed. Labour is proposing returning it to 26%. That's all.
I'm also a top rate tax payer, as it happens, and am comfortable with a 1% increase in tax. It's the right thing to do. |  |
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| Why I'm not voting Labour on 06:56 - May 30 with 4583 views | noggin |
| Why I'm not voting Labour on 06:52 - May 30 by Superfrans |
On spending, the Conservatives supported pretty much all of Labour's spending plans through the Nineties and Noughties.
On tax, corporation tax was at 28% until 2010 and has been slashed. Labour is proposing returning it to 26%. That's all.
I'm also a top rate tax payer, as it happens, and am comfortable with a 1% increase in tax. It's the right thing to do. |
How refreshing to hear a voter who will vote for the good of the country, rather than his own wallet. |  |
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| Why I'm not voting Labour on 07:25 - May 30 with 4561 views | Superfrans |
| Why I'm not voting Labour on 06:56 - May 30 by noggin |
How refreshing to hear a voter who will vote for the good of the country, rather than his own wallet. |
It's not a "look at me" post and it's not without self interest. If things continue as they are, my kids will never be able to buy their own home, they'll be saddled with debt (my 14yo is already suggesting she doesn't want to go to university because of the debt, which is appalling imho), the NHS will crumble during their lifetime. All the things I've been able to take for granted won't be there for them.
The thing that bugs me most is how the Tories can position themselves as safe hands on the economy given the mess they have made of it over the past 7 years. Increased the debt AND slashed all of our services?? How have they got away with that?? | |
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| Why I'm not voting Labour on 08:03 - May 30 with 4534 views | m14_blue |
There are some perfectly valid points in the OP but I find it really odd that people use the economic instability brought about by brexit as a reason to vote for the 'safe' tories.
That instability and impending disaster was entirely brought about by them and their internal party politics. | | | |
| Why I'm not voting Labour on 08:46 - May 30 with 4502 views | StokieBlue |
| Why I'm not voting Labour on 00:02 - May 30 by BOjK |
I'm told that nationalising won't - technically - increase the debt, as the value of the asset "purchased" appears on the balance sheets. |
I don't think that works. The debt is still there and unless the income from the nationalised company covers the repayments it increases.
It's also likely to be impossible to repay unless you sell the asset, they may balance on the books but you'll need to roll that debt later and you don't know what rate you'll have to pay.
With regards to the water companies, has McDonnell said what price it will be yet? He said it wouldn't be market price but not seen anything lately on what haircut he expects the owners to take.
Happy to be corrected on any of the above.
SB |  |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Why I'm not voting Labour on 09:07 - May 30 with 4492 views | No9 |
Re-nationalisation of rail can be achieved without cost although it will mean some new investment but that will be cheaper than paying foreign governments to run rail as at the moment, this was demostrated by the Adonis 'Not for Profit' EC railway.
You would like to have the lower rate of corporation tax despite the facr that most benefit will go to large corporations who whill hand it out to shareholders, again much of this money will leave the country - to pay for that the public will have to pay more tax to make up for the shortfall meaning less disposable income in Joe Publics pocket. Don't forget these wealthy corporations are already getting large handouts in the form of corporate welfare for infrastructure facilities and depressed wages.
How much are the tories paying to leave the UK daily now- £1 or £2 million a day to private law firms? | | | |
| Why I'm not voting Labour on 09:13 - May 30 with 4480 views | GeoffSentence |
Project fear seems to be ramping up amongst tory supporters right now. Over the weekend I had some grey haired old conservatives trying to frighten me into voting conservative by bringing up the three day week from the 70's. 'That's how it will be if Corbyn wins'. Even the irony of the three day week being during a conservative government didn't stop their fearmongering. |  |
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| Why I'm not voting Labour on 09:15 - May 30 with 4473 views | Gromheort |
| Why I'm not voting Labour on 01:42 - May 30 by FrowsyArmLarry |
I agree we aren't training enough but that's because we can source better labour from abroad without incurring those costs.... that's just tough and means there are more people that will have to struggle. It doesn't matter whether tories or lab get in on that score - both are only interested in subsidising the talent |
That's not the case. If it was simply about sourcing, to the detriment of the young, we wouldn't have such a severe productivity gap. There are substantial demand-related structural flaws in the economy. That can only be eliminated through a shift towards a long term investment strategy. We need a restoration of labour rights and the removal of profiteering opportunity from low wage labour demand. Ultimately its a reaction against neoliberalism. | | | |
| Why I'm not voting Labour on 09:16 - May 30 with 4471 views | StokieBlue |
| Why I'm not voting Labour on 09:07 - May 30 by No9 |
Re-nationalisation of rail can be achieved without cost although it will mean some new investment but that will be cheaper than paying foreign governments to run rail as at the moment, this was demostrated by the Adonis 'Not for Profit' EC railway.
You would like to have the lower rate of corporation tax despite the facr that most benefit will go to large corporations who whill hand it out to shareholders, again much of this money will leave the country - to pay for that the public will have to pay more tax to make up for the shortfall meaning less disposable income in Joe Publics pocket. Don't forget these wealthy corporations are already getting large handouts in the form of corporate welfare for infrastructure facilities and depressed wages.
How much are the tories paying to leave the UK daily now- £1 or £2 million a day to private law firms? |
Agree entirely on the rail and have no objections at all, it's a franchised business model and could easily and effectively be re-nationalised.
The same is not true for Royal Mail or the water companies. My concern is that grabbing these back at below market rate would send an awful signal to the rest of the world. I do fully understand the argument that utilities should be state-owned and for the people, I don't think they should have been privatised in the first place. I am just not sure it's something that can be sensibly reversed.
SB [Post edited 30 May 2017 9:17]
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| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Why I'm not voting Labour on 09:22 - May 30 with 4456 views | No9 |
| Why I'm not voting Labour on 09:16 - May 30 by StokieBlue |
Agree entirely on the rail and have no objections at all, it's a franchised business model and could easily and effectively be re-nationalised.
The same is not true for Royal Mail or the water companies. My concern is that grabbing these back at below market rate would send an awful signal to the rest of the world. I do fully understand the argument that utilities should be state-owned and for the people, I don't think they should have been privatised in the first place. I am just not sure it's something that can be sensibly reversed.
SB [Post edited 30 May 2017 9:17]
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Re-natinalising Royal Man would only be symbolic becaus of the Queens head on the stamp, presently it survives as a subcontractor to many of the other parcel services. But management is rank bad and is unable to work out how to compete. It may actually come back into public ownership by default.
Water is a major problme bacause it is a basic need and is falling into serious disrepair. the Private owners are not putting in the money needed to keep it a safe and sure supply, it may have to comaback into public ownership when the 'Owners' default.
As far as electric & gas are concerned the 'grids' should be re-nationalised to rid the of cartels and runas a not for profit company opening up access to allcomers to provide real competition on the supply side. ne.b Germany is now going back to renationalising the eastern grid after having been shafted by private owners. | | | |
| Why I'm not voting Labour on 09:28 - May 30 with 4449 views | StokieBlue |
| Why I'm not voting Labour on 09:22 - May 30 by No9 |
Re-natinalising Royal Man would only be symbolic becaus of the Queens head on the stamp, presently it survives as a subcontractor to many of the other parcel services. But management is rank bad and is unable to work out how to compete. It may actually come back into public ownership by default.
Water is a major problme bacause it is a basic need and is falling into serious disrepair. the Private owners are not putting in the money needed to keep it a safe and sure supply, it may have to comaback into public ownership when the 'Owners' default.
As far as electric & gas are concerned the 'grids' should be re-nationalised to rid the of cartels and runas a not for profit company opening up access to allcomers to provide real competition on the supply side. ne.b Germany is now going back to renationalising the eastern grid after having been shafted by private owners. |
How will you pay for the re-nationalised of National Grid which has a current market capitalisation of 37.4bn GBP?
With regards to the water companies, I agree there should be legislation to ensure that a certain amount is spent on infrastructure before profits are taken, although it's hard to apply that retrospectively after the purchase has been made. No idea how the owners could "default", I assume you mean in regards to the fact the water stops running rather than any debt based issues?
I'm not saying these things can't and shouldn't be done (I do think infrastructure should never have been privatised), I'm just asking how they would be done.
SB | |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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