| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. 22:44 - Feb 14 with 15946 views | GlasgowBlue |
KM came in last year when the club was at its lowest ebb. We were badly underperforming and the defeat to Charlton was as low as it could get.
He had an instant positive effect and got a talented squad playing some lovely football, and we had belief back in the team. Everything coming out of the dressing room suggested that training was far better and that the new manager was like a great of fresh air. This was even said by players after he let them go, like a Norwood and Bonne.
That carried over to this season and we got off to a flyer. Joe will have the exact stats but after 46 games McKenna had us on something like 88 points. Just short of automatic promotion form.
Everything looked good. Ok we had a dip in form, illness and injuries but got ourselves back to the top of the table a week before Christmas. Despite a defeat to Wycombe we followed it up with a convincing Boxing Day thrashing of Oxford, playing sone of our best football of the season.
There was nothing to suggest that we would take a massive dip in form. But we did. Maybe the cup games papered over the cracks, but we weren’t playing with the same intensity and confidence as the first third of the season.
Something has changed within the team. Is it a lack of confidence? And if so where has that come from? I don’t agree that we haven’t got over Charlton, as we had some good results after that game, though not enough. Was it the last minute equaliser at home to Plymouth? That really seems to have knocked the stuffing out of us.
Is it the constant tinkering with our central defence? I understand why he’s done it because as individuals all of our central defenders have been culpable in giving away some very easy goals.
Is it the midfield? Before Evans first injury, him and Morsy were running the show. Humphreys came in and played some good games but Morsy’s game seemed to suffer. He was having to do so much more work to cover for a talented but inexperienced youngster. When Evans came back, he wasn’t the same players as the one we saw pre injury. And now he’s out again. Morsy looks absolutely knackered playing on a Saturday and Tuesday.
One thing I have noticed in recent games is that our midfield isn’t as dynamic and dominant as in previous games. They set the tempo for the rest of the team and we no longer play with pace and intensity. Everything seems to have slowed down. We’ve even started to pump long balls from the back and completely bypass the midfield.
Does anyone else have a view on why we have hit a brick wall and started drawing games instead of winning them?
[Post edited 14 Feb 2023 22:48]
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| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 09:26 - Feb 15 with 1371 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 22:58 - Feb 14 by Plums |
I think you're both correct. It's the midfield and a lack of tempo. Other than Broadhead and Edwards, neither of whom started tonight, nobody wants to take responsibility to drive forward and put pressure on the defence. It's infuriating seeing players with 20 yards of open space in front of them, not carry the ball into it.
You can make things happen or let them happen in life and at the moment, we seem content to do the latter. |
And to add to that - take a bloody shot. We seem to constantly try to create the perfect scoring opportunity rather than just have a go. These are League 1 keepers - i.e. not the best - but we don't test them nearly half as much as we should. |  |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 09:26 - Feb 15 with 1370 views | chicoazul |
| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 08:02 - Feb 15 by Steve_M |
Yes, I'm broadly with you here. It's largely a mental thing at the moment I think, we started fairly well last night but noticeably slowed down our passing after 20 minutes and never really got that going again.
It's also the case that McKenna hasn't gone through such a poor run as a manager, and doesn't have a template to resolve it. After a blip McCarthy, for example, would tighten up at the back, work harder on getting the defensive side organised and go from there.
At the moment we seem to be trying a few too many different things, some are working well enough - e.g. longer balls leading to the free kick Broadhead scored from Saturday as well as his chance last night and the early corner against Morecombe - but the whole looks even more disjointed. |
It seems to me the problem is we keep doing the same thing. 2 in the middle 2 wide 2 tens and 1 nine. I appreciate the players have been drilled and drilled in this and that’s why we bought who we bought but if it isn’t working you need to experiment.
Let’s try for eg Leigh at left back Davis at left mid and Chaplin and Ladapo as a pair of 9s. |  |
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| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 09:30 - Feb 15 with 1353 views | bobbyramsey |
| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 07:42 - Feb 15 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
Must admit I thought he was a good signing at the time, as an experienced short term option covering Ball and Camara until they were back
However that belief was based on the assumption that he was basically ready to play, which has clearly turned out to be wrong, so now the signing is just looking bizarre |
I think all the January signings look bizarre, not one of them started last night and these were the players signed for a “promotion push”….. |  | | |
| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 09:55 - Feb 15 with 1324 views | BiGDonnie |
| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 22:53 - Feb 14 by Cheltenham_Blue |
Can I add too many players bought in similar positions too?
The squad is horribly bloated, and a handful of them are still injured, and will add even more competition for places. It leads McKenna to constantly have to rotate players.
Plus, we are setting up to play League one football, with Championship players and a Premier League style, thats not worked for a whole succession of teams, who eventually had to get players used to playing at this level. |
Do some of our players think that League one is beneath them do you think? It's a possibility. |  |
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| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 10:08 - Feb 15 with 1308 views | portmanking |
| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 09:26 - Feb 15 by chicoazul |
It seems to me the problem is we keep doing the same thing. 2 in the middle 2 wide 2 tens and 1 nine. I appreciate the players have been drilled and drilled in this and that’s why we bought who we bought but if it isn’t working you need to experiment.
Let’s try for eg Leigh at left back Davis at left mid and Chaplin and Ladapo as a pair of 9s. |
I think Davis would make an excellent left mid. Much fewer defensive responsibilities, which is absolutely his weakest link.
3-5-2 has to be the way to go, surely?
Walton
Clarke---Woolfenden---Edmundson
Burns----------------------------Davis
--------Morsy--Humphreys--------
Chaplin
--------Ladapo----Broadhead------ |  | | |
| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 10:13 - Feb 15 with 1292 views | LankHenners |
| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 08:02 - Feb 15 by Steve_M |
Yes, I'm broadly with you here. It's largely a mental thing at the moment I think, we started fairly well last night but noticeably slowed down our passing after 20 minutes and never really got that going again.
It's also the case that McKenna hasn't gone through such a poor run as a manager, and doesn't have a template to resolve it. After a blip McCarthy, for example, would tighten up at the back, work harder on getting the defensive side organised and go from there.
At the moment we seem to be trying a few too many different things, some are working well enough - e.g. longer balls leading to the free kick Broadhead scored from Saturday as well as his chance last night and the early corner against Morecombe - but the whole looks even more disjointed. |
Yeah that's a good point re: McKenna. There's a narrative coming from some that you can't call him inexperienced because he's been coaching for several years but this is perhaps where the difference between being in charge of a youth team or just a member of a first team set-up and being the main manager shows.
Does almost feel at times that we're resigned to having to play these types of games where the opposition doesn't give up much space and it affects the tempo because we don't want to do things quickly when there's an opportunity to. Case in point last night - they have a corner or free kick that breaks to us to counter, Morsy gets it but turns to 'beat' the man who's chasing him, moves it away from him then goes back to Woolfenden, at which point the Rovers players had sprinted back into position and it was a wall of 10 to get through again. Edwards had made a run wide right which at the very least stretched the limited number of defenders that were back at the time but neither other players nor the ball got up the pitch at a similar speed and the opportunity was gone.
I'm struggling for an answer for it to be honest other than the players giving themselves a kick up the backside somehow. I'd hoped the way they came back on Saturday and held on when under a bit of a barrage of balls into the box would've given them some confidence but we just can't seem to generate any sort of momentum from game to game let alone over a whole string of them. |  |
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| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 10:13 - Feb 15 with 1286 views | itfcsuth |
| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 09:55 - Feb 15 by BiGDonnie |
Do some of our players think that League one is beneath them do you think? It's a possibility. |
Nonsense, literally nothing to suggest that's even remotely a possibility. |  | | |
| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 10:21 - Feb 15 with 1248 views | Stadiumofdark |
Mixture of a few things I think:
- Teams have worked us out, and KMc is still learning
- CM injuries have hurt us.... Humph is good, but cant play every game.... and it supresses Morsy
- Squad too big (too similar payers) - so we rotate..... players know they'll get a game, so dont have to work hard to prove they deserve it? (just my thoughts!)
- Fans give hope.... now getting grumpy.... at same time that players have lost confidence.
We need a couple of wins badly..... from a settled side that plays with tempo. |  | | |
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| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 10:24 - Feb 15 with 1224 views | chicoazul |
| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 10:21 - Feb 15 by Stadiumofdark |
Mixture of a few things I think:
- Teams have worked us out, and KMc is still learning
- CM injuries have hurt us.... Humph is good, but cant play every game.... and it supresses Morsy
- Squad too big (too similar payers) - so we rotate..... players know they'll get a game, so dont have to work hard to prove they deserve it? (just my thoughts!)
- Fans give hope.... now getting grumpy.... at same time that players have lost confidence.
We need a couple of wins badly..... from a settled side that plays with tempo. |
I have truly had enough of this McK is learning narrative. He’s been a coach for many years. | |
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| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 10:28 - Feb 15 with 1210 views | BiGDonnie |
| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 10:13 - Feb 15 by itfcsuth |
Nonsense, literally nothing to suggest that's even remotely a possibility. |
So you don't think so? | |
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| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 10:29 - Feb 15 with 1204 views | Pinewoodblue |
Coming round to thinking that strange as it may sound KMc has the same problem as Paul Cook.
He has surrounded himself with mates, people he knows will support what he feels is the right thing to do, sadly their lack of experience is exposing his inexperience.
He needs someone he can turn to who feels able to to say what needs to be said. Lack of personal experience is evident. He himself lacks playing experience as due to injury his career never really got going. His assistant likewise lacks playing experience. His first team coach only recently retired from playing, or rather from sitting on the bench.
Does anyone believe that between them they know the best starting eleven? I very much doubt it. We make change for changes sake not just with the starting eleven but also with substitutions.
So frustrating when game after game we lose momentum when making wholesale changes midway through the second half. Later to be compounded when we make further changes to try and see the game out, worst example of the latter has to be Charlton, the game our decline began.
We concede well into injury time but still lead 4-3, make a defensive substitution and concede again. Concede in the time added on for the substitution.
Would like to think Ashton will sit down with KMc and talk this through but don’t think that is Ashton’s style he is more likely to consider a change of Manager.
Now to try and be more positive. We have gathered a skilful squad, one more than capable of advancing, with some fine tuning, beyond the Championship. A very similar situation to 2000 when we carried the momentum on to finish 5th, even though we didn’t manage automatic promotion but had to rely on play offs.
The difficult task is getting out of this league. Like any reasonable thinking town fan I want Kieran McKenna to have a long successful career as our manager and hope he has the necessary courage to do something about it.
Going up via the play offs wouldn’t be a failure but it is essential we go up this season and his Ipswich career may depend on it. |  |
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| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 10:33 - Feb 15 with 1177 views | Stadiumofdark |
| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 10:24 - Feb 15 by chicoazul |
I have truly had enough of this McK is learning narrative. He’s been a coach for many years. |
He's learning how to manage a squad - learning the other aspects of the job. | | | |
| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 10:34 - Feb 15 with 1177 views | Lightningboy |
Walton.
Everything builds from him & he's been shocking since late September. |  | | |
| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 10:53 - Feb 15 with 1130 views | hadleighboyblue |
| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 23:14 - Feb 14 by King_ding_a_lin_g |
It's the midfield.
Luongo, Evans, Camara, Ball... four players who, when fit, get in the side ahead of Humphreys.
He shouldn't be being asked to play Saturday, Tuesday at this stage of the season nor in a team which is low on confidence. |
Agreed , we are asking too much of Humphreys and it's affecting Morsy too as he has to play a different role .
Biggest concern is what's happened to Burns and to a lesser extent Chaplin | | | |
| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 11:28 - Feb 15 with 1095 views | LeoMuff |
| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 10:33 - Feb 15 by Stadiumofdark |
He's learning how to manage a squad - learning the other aspects of the job. |
Also learning league 1, and this standard of player/opposition. I think he really would benefit from an assistant who has seen it all at this level, I am concerned that all his coaching is at premier league level, we need success in league 1. |  |
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| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 11:31 - Feb 15 with 1088 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 09:08 - Feb 15 by textbackup |
Hang on, you said we’d still make top 2?! |
We still could but last night has made that prospect less likely. We needed last night to be part of a five game winning run.
If Bolton no Derby can make the top two then so can we. Our form would suggest otherwise though. [Post edited 15 Feb 2023 11:39]
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| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 11:37 - Feb 15 with 1071 views | Matt_Netherlands |
There seems to be a few things we’ve stopped doing either through tactical choice it being found out:
- The spare Centre half (usual Woolf) stepping into midfield and starting attacks from there
- Donacien getting to the byline overlapping Burns
- The pull back ball from the byline to the penalty spot for a slide in - we scored countless goals like that
- Scoring early!
Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but should we have just paid Posh what they wanted for Taylor? |  | | |
| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 14:05 - Feb 15 with 939 views | Radlett_blue |
| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 09:30 - Feb 15 by bobbyramsey |
I think all the January signings look bizarre, not one of them started last night and these were the players signed for a “promotion push”….. |
Luongo was a sensible stop-gap central midfiled player.
Clarke & Broadfoot look like good footballers, but their introduction seems to have added more confusion about what is our best team.
Hirst hasn't impressed me so far.
The biggest issue is that these players haven't slotted into obvious positions where they look much better than what we had before. |  |
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| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 15:59 - Feb 15 with 896 views | HARRY10 |
| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 22:55 - Feb 14 by GlasgowBlue |
I’d hope that the realisation that the top two is now unlikely will see us be more adventurous and accept the odd defeat it it means more wins. The reigns should really come off now and find some form going into the play offs. |
Odd how when others were pointing how we stood as far as the play offs were concerned on Saturday, you had a hissy fit and called those supporters defeatist.
I shall avoid mentioning the form pf Bolton and Barnsley, lest that sets you off again. | | | |
| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 16:56 - Feb 15 with 845 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 15:59 - Feb 15 by HARRY10 |
Odd how when others were pointing how we stood as far as the play offs were concerned on Saturday, you had a hissy fit and called those supporters defeatist.
I shall avoid mentioning the form pf Bolton and Barnsley, lest that sets you off again. |
I’ll donate £100 to a charity of your choice if you can find a single post of mine calling anyone “defeatist” for pointing how we stood as far as the play offs were concerned on Saturday.
If you can’t then perhaps you will reciprocate to a charity of my choice. | |
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| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 17:26 - Feb 15 with 827 views | jayessess |
I'd say:
1) We've spiralled: We started dropping points before our performances started dropping off.
But when we kept dropping points it began to affect our collective mindsets and that led to worse performances (especially Cambridge and Bristol Rovers away).
2) Evans' injury: We're much less dominant in midfield since Evans got injured. We aren't the same with Humphreys, we weren't the same when he came back after his injury.
3) Walton's form relative to other keepers: Before Saturday Wednesday had conceded twice from their last 99 shots, costing them a total of 2 points across 11 games. Meanwhile, we'd conceded 17 from our last 102 shots, costing us 20 points across 13 games.
Think this also exposed one other flaw, that's been with us all season:
1) Late game composure: We simply don't win games late on. 79 minutes 55 seconds is the latest we've won a game this season. We've had chances to win them, but we don't take them. |  |
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| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 17:31 - Feb 15 with 809 views | portmanking |
| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 17:26 - Feb 15 by jayessess |
I'd say:
1) We've spiralled: We started dropping points before our performances started dropping off.
But when we kept dropping points it began to affect our collective mindsets and that led to worse performances (especially Cambridge and Bristol Rovers away).
2) Evans' injury: We're much less dominant in midfield since Evans got injured. We aren't the same with Humphreys, we weren't the same when he came back after his injury.
3) Walton's form relative to other keepers: Before Saturday Wednesday had conceded twice from their last 99 shots, costing them a total of 2 points across 11 games. Meanwhile, we'd conceded 17 from our last 102 shots, costing us 20 points across 13 games.
Think this also exposed one other flaw, that's been with us all season:
1) Late game composure: We simply don't win games late on. 79 minutes 55 seconds is the latest we've won a game this season. We've had chances to win them, but we don't take them. |
That #3 statistic is quite a harrowing and damning indictment of how indifferent Walton's been since that Charlton gaffe.
Even last night he nearly handed Rovers a goal on a silver platter inexplicably. Hladky must be wondering what he has to do to get a chance.
I know Walton had a finger injury, but surely that's recovered by now and isn't weighing heavily?! | | | |
| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 17:34 - Feb 15 with 804 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 17:26 - Feb 15 by jayessess |
I'd say:
1) We've spiralled: We started dropping points before our performances started dropping off.
But when we kept dropping points it began to affect our collective mindsets and that led to worse performances (especially Cambridge and Bristol Rovers away).
2) Evans' injury: We're much less dominant in midfield since Evans got injured. We aren't the same with Humphreys, we weren't the same when he came back after his injury.
3) Walton's form relative to other keepers: Before Saturday Wednesday had conceded twice from their last 99 shots, costing them a total of 2 points across 11 games. Meanwhile, we'd conceded 17 from our last 102 shots, costing us 20 points across 13 games.
Think this also exposed one other flaw, that's been with us all season:
1) Late game composure: We simply don't win games late on. 79 minutes 55 seconds is the latest we've won a game this season. We've had chances to win them, but we don't take them. |
I think every team has the odd poor performance. The successful teams find a way to win even when playing poorly too. I am not sure our performances have especially dropped off. Instead, we have increasingly found ways to draw and even lose when playing well (Plymouth A, Lincoln H, Charlton A, Cheltenham H, Oxford A especially come to mind). Imagine we drew with Plymouth and won the rest of those and then snuck an odd undeserved win. We would have another 13 points and be 5 clear at the top.
Our issue is turning performances into wins. It is grinding out results even when we don't play well. It is the difference between a side that wins matches in the final 10 minutes and one that throws points away in them. I actually think some of that is tactical too. |  |
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| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 17:45 - Feb 15 with 779 views | SE1blue |
Oh for a Jim Magilton right now. For the gutsy, diehard character, but mostly for his willingness to take someone on and unpick defences.
It would be good to see us actually run at teams, instead of trying to pass around them. We have players with the pace, should things unlock and we don’t seem to be using it. To me, we’re trying to play intricate passing football at a level that our players are not good enough to do. |  |
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| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 17:50 - Feb 15 with 754 views | DJR |
| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 17:26 - Feb 15 by jayessess |
I'd say:
1) We've spiralled: We started dropping points before our performances started dropping off.
But when we kept dropping points it began to affect our collective mindsets and that led to worse performances (especially Cambridge and Bristol Rovers away).
2) Evans' injury: We're much less dominant in midfield since Evans got injured. We aren't the same with Humphreys, we weren't the same when he came back after his injury.
3) Walton's form relative to other keepers: Before Saturday Wednesday had conceded twice from their last 99 shots, costing them a total of 2 points across 11 games. Meanwhile, we'd conceded 17 from our last 102 shots, costing us 20 points across 13 games.
Think this also exposed one other flaw, that's been with us all season:
1) Late game composure: We simply don't win games late on. 79 minutes 55 seconds is the latest we've won a game this season. We've had chances to win them, but we don't take them. |
I am not sure that Evans' absence has made that much difference, given he is integral to the way we play and opposition teams have wised up to us.
Indeed, in period when he returned, we got 10 points from 7 games, at a time when Plymouth got 14 points from 7 games, and Wednesday got 18 points from 6. |  | | |
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