| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. 22:44 - Feb 14 with 15945 views | GlasgowBlue |
KM came in last year when the club was at its lowest ebb. We were badly underperforming and the defeat to Charlton was as low as it could get.
He had an instant positive effect and got a talented squad playing some lovely football, and we had belief back in the team. Everything coming out of the dressing room suggested that training was far better and that the new manager was like a great of fresh air. This was even said by players after he let them go, like a Norwood and Bonne.
That carried over to this season and we got off to a flyer. Joe will have the exact stats but after 46 games McKenna had us on something like 88 points. Just short of automatic promotion form.
Everything looked good. Ok we had a dip in form, illness and injuries but got ourselves back to the top of the table a week before Christmas. Despite a defeat to Wycombe we followed it up with a convincing Boxing Day thrashing of Oxford, playing sone of our best football of the season.
There was nothing to suggest that we would take a massive dip in form. But we did. Maybe the cup games papered over the cracks, but we weren’t playing with the same intensity and confidence as the first third of the season.
Something has changed within the team. Is it a lack of confidence? And if so where has that come from? I don’t agree that we haven’t got over Charlton, as we had some good results after that game, though not enough. Was it the last minute equaliser at home to Plymouth? That really seems to have knocked the stuffing out of us.
Is it the constant tinkering with our central defence? I understand why he’s done it because as individuals all of our central defenders have been culpable in giving away some very easy goals.
Is it the midfield? Before Evans first injury, him and Morsy were running the show. Humphreys came in and played some good games but Morsy’s game seemed to suffer. He was having to do so much more work to cover for a talented but inexperienced youngster. When Evans came back, he wasn’t the same players as the one we saw pre injury. And now he’s out again. Morsy looks absolutely knackered playing on a Saturday and Tuesday.
One thing I have noticed in recent games is that our midfield isn’t as dynamic and dominant as in previous games. They set the tempo for the rest of the team and we no longer play with pace and intensity. Everything seems to have slowed down. We’ve even started to pump long balls from the back and completely bypass the midfield.
Does anyone else have a view on why we have hit a brick wall and started drawing games instead of winning them?
[Post edited 14 Feb 2023 22:48]
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| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 17:50 - Feb 15 with 2000 views | jayessess |
| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 17:34 - Feb 15 by Nthsuffolkblue |
I think every team has the odd poor performance. The successful teams find a way to win even when playing poorly too. I am not sure our performances have especially dropped off. Instead, we have increasingly found ways to draw and even lose when playing well (Plymouth A, Lincoln H, Charlton A, Cheltenham H, Oxford A especially come to mind). Imagine we drew with Plymouth and won the rest of those and then snuck an odd undeserved win. We would have another 13 points and be 5 clear at the top.
Our issue is turning performances into wins. It is grinding out results even when we don't play well. It is the difference between a side that wins matches in the final 10 minutes and one that throws points away in them. I actually think some of that is tactical too. |
I think there has been somewhat of a drop off in away performances from January onwards.
On balance of play, rather than outcomes, I'd say:
Charlton, Exeter we were utterly dominant in tricky away games.
Wycombe, Portsmouth and Lincoln we were mainly dominant if a little toothless, against tough-ish opponents.
Oxford, Cambridge and Bristol Rovers we've been variously passive, panicked and pedestrian, against absolute also rans who we should have steamrollered. |  |
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| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 18:39 - Feb 15 with 1957 views | FBI |
There's another factor at play which I freely admit to being guilty of: living in a blue bubble and forgetting that we're in competition with some other very good sides of similar size and experience.
I don't disagree with most of what's been said but we have to remember that other clubs are fighting for the same prize.
Doesn't stop our dip being alarming, mind you. Just food for thought. |  |
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| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 19:58 - Feb 15 with 1877 views | McCall |
| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 22:53 - Feb 14 by Cheltenham_Blue |
Can I add too many players bought in similar positions too?
The squad is horribly bloated, and a handful of them are still injured, and will add even more competition for places. It leads McKenna to constantly have to rotate players.
Plus, we are setting up to play League one football, with Championship players and a Premier League style, thats not worked for a whole succession of teams, who eventually had to get players used to playing at this level. |
Absolutely this. We have wasted some proper money, especially in Jan, what is the point in George Hirst? FFS it's obvious most of our defenders aren't up to it. Some terrible decisions in Jan and the blame lies with McKenna I'm afraid. |  | | |
| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 20:55 - Feb 15 with 1841 views | ringwoodblue |
I think McK was still a bit of an unknown quantity at the beginning of the season so opposition managers couldn’t do their research on him or plan how to play against us. Come October, I think the opposition started to see the way we play and how predictable we are so basically we’ve been sussed as others have already said.
McK doesn’t change his system or tactics, just the players, so we have become predictable and one-dimensional and therefore easy to beat or nullify. [Post edited 15 Feb 2023 20:58]
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| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 08:50 - Feb 16 with 1701 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 19:58 - Feb 15 by McCall |
Absolutely this. We have wasted some proper money, especially in Jan, what is the point in George Hirst? FFS it's obvious most of our defenders aren't up to it. Some terrible decisions in Jan and the blame lies with McKenna I'm afraid. |
Hirst has made 2 starts and 4 sub appearances in the league. Nothing like writing a player off before he's even had chance to get going! |  |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 08:54 - Feb 16 with 1702 views | Herbivore |
| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 20:55 - Feb 15 by ringwoodblue |
I think McK was still a bit of an unknown quantity at the beginning of the season so opposition managers couldn’t do their research on him or plan how to play against us. Come October, I think the opposition started to see the way we play and how predictable we are so basically we’ve been sussed as others have already said.
McK doesn’t change his system or tactics, just the players, so we have become predictable and one-dimensional and therefore easy to beat or nullify. [Post edited 15 Feb 2023 20:58]
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I love the line that McKenna doesn't change his system when our own fans can't even agree half the time whether we're playing with a back three or a back four. |  |
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| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 09:29 - Feb 16 with 1651 views | DJR |
| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 18:39 - Feb 15 by FBI |
There's another factor at play which I freely admit to being guilty of: living in a blue bubble and forgetting that we're in competition with some other very good sides of similar size and experience.
I don't disagree with most of what's been said but we have to remember that other clubs are fighting for the same prize.
Doesn't stop our dip being alarming, mind you. Just food for thought. |
That's a very good point, reinforced by the fact that even teams from a lower division can put up a decent fight against teams from a higher division.
As Jean-Paul Sartre, the French philosopher put it.
"In football everything is complicated by the presence of the opposite team." |  | | |
| George Hirst on 18:51 - Feb 16 with 1536 views | Radlett_blue |
| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 08:50 - Feb 16 by The_Flashing_Smile |
Hirst has made 2 starts and 4 sub appearances in the league. Nothing like writing a player off before he's even had chance to get going! |
Hirst is 24 & has played over 100 League games, att his level or above. Bizarrely, he's contracted to Leicester until 2025, although I don't see him playing many Premier League gamesas he doesn't seem to have been good enough for the Championship. He was signed as a short term loan & I think we were entitled to hope for a bit more from him, although sometimes it's not easy to settle at a new club & system. |  |
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| George Hirst on 19:20 - Feb 16 with 1493 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| George Hirst on 18:51 - Feb 16 by Radlett_blue |
Hirst is 24 & has played over 100 League games, att his level or above. Bizarrely, he's contracted to Leicester until 2025, although I don't see him playing many Premier League gamesas he doesn't seem to have been good enough for the Championship. He was signed as a short term loan & I think we were entitled to hope for a bit more from him, although sometimes it's not easy to settle at a new club & system. |
We may well see more of him, but I'd say 2 starts and 4 sub appearances in a new team might not be enough for a striker to be firing on all cylinders.
He may also be rubbish, but I'd argue it's a bit early to tell yet. Leicester obviously saw something in him, as did McKenna to be chasing him all summer. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 20:47 - Feb 16 with 1464 views | ibbleobble |
| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 22:49 - Feb 14 by J2BLUE |
The one dimensional style of play and complete lack of urgency.
I just don't understand why, game after game, we are so slow and never really seem to get going. Late on in games where we need a goal we are still knocking it around the back four. Draws are killing us. Even if we really went for it and lost the odd game, a win is still worth three draws.
It's really odd and worrying. |
It’s exactly this. Although Cook had a lot of failings, the reason Burns and Bonne did so well is that we broke with pace and got behind opppsition defences as a result. It’s not complicated. We break slowly and look to pin teams back and play a perfect ball to score. When that breaks down (as it often does) we’re left exposed on the break.
The shots for and against in most games where we’ve conceded tell that story. What’s more concerning is there’s no back up plan. We’ve hammered other managers for far less. How can McKenna look at the obvious and not change it? That says incompetence, not inexperience.
I don’t see any new ideas coming out though. That’s concerning. |  | | |
| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 09:08 - Feb 17 with 1351 views | ibbleobble |
| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 08:54 - Feb 16 by Herbivore |
I love the line that McKenna doesn't change his system when our own fans can't even agree half the time whether we're playing with a back three or a back four. |
It’s been one of two systems all season. That’s one better than Cook but we do appear incapable of changing it up during the game. | | | |
| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 10:11 - Feb 17 with 1333 views | GlasgowBlue |
I think the general consensus is pick a best eleven and stick with it to gain some momentum and understanding.
That is difficult with such a big squad as there will be a lot of players not getting a look in. | |
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| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 10:21 - Feb 17 with 1304 views | Radlett_blue |
| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 09:08 - Feb 17 by ibbleobble |
It’s been one of two systems all season. That’s one better than Cook but we do appear incapable of changing it up during the game. |
That's one thing BFJ was good at. He'd often make a sub at half time or change the system because he could see what we were doing wasn't working. Mick was rather different - all he seemed to do was try to match the opposition formation so that the 2 teams cancelled each other out. Not much evidence McKenna has a plan "B" & this has been particularly evident in many of the last 15 games as teams, especially the poorer teams, have worked out how to frustrate us & we don;t seem to be trying anything different. | |
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| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 10:33 - Feb 17 with 1292 views | pointofblue |
| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 19:58 - Feb 15 by McCall |
Absolutely this. We have wasted some proper money, especially in Jan, what is the point in George Hirst? FFS it's obvious most of our defenders aren't up to it. Some terrible decisions in Jan and the blame lies with McKenna I'm afraid. |
Our defenders were up for it at the end of last season and beginning of this for the most part. The personnel at the back is not the problem, it’s the tactical approach combined with a weak central midfield due to injuries. | |
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| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 10:34 - Feb 17 with 1287 views | tractorboy1978 |
| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 10:21 - Feb 17 by Radlett_blue |
That's one thing BFJ was good at. He'd often make a sub at half time or change the system because he could see what we were doing wasn't working. Mick was rather different - all he seemed to do was try to match the opposition formation so that the 2 teams cancelled each other out. Not much evidence McKenna has a plan "B" & this has been particularly evident in many of the last 15 games as teams, especially the poorer teams, have worked out how to frustrate us & we don;t seem to be trying anything different. |
It's a myth we don't have a plan B. McKenna is always tinkering with players positions on the pitch. We move between a back 3 and back 4, the positions of the 10s change and we change personnel to bring different qualities. Our principles don't change but it's not like we don't change things up.
I think most people see sticking two men up top and lumping balls as being a 'Plan B'. It's easy to say that but we went two up top against Cambridge for the last 15-20 and looked worse. The reality is we just need to get back to being better at doing what we do best. That means moving it with a bit more speed/intensity and players taking more risks with the ball. | | | |
| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 10:42 - Feb 17 with 1239 views | FrimleyBlue |
| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 10:34 - Feb 17 by tractorboy1978 |
It's a myth we don't have a plan B. McKenna is always tinkering with players positions on the pitch. We move between a back 3 and back 4, the positions of the 10s change and we change personnel to bring different qualities. Our principles don't change but it's not like we don't change things up.
I think most people see sticking two men up top and lumping balls as being a 'Plan B'. It's easy to say that but we went two up top against Cambridge for the last 15-20 and looked worse. The reality is we just need to get back to being better at doing what we do best. That means moving it with a bit more speed/intensity and players taking more risks with the ball. |
Depends what you define as a plan.
We've seen morsy as a left inside forward
Harness as a CM
Clarke as a LB
Edwards on right. Left. Middle.
Etc etc
Tweaking things in hope something works imo isn't a plan. |  |
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| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 10:45 - Feb 17 with 1243 views | mrfixit426 |
| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 10:34 - Feb 17 by tractorboy1978 |
It's a myth we don't have a plan B. McKenna is always tinkering with players positions on the pitch. We move between a back 3 and back 4, the positions of the 10s change and we change personnel to bring different qualities. Our principles don't change but it's not like we don't change things up.
I think most people see sticking two men up top and lumping balls as being a 'Plan B'. It's easy to say that but we went two up top against Cambridge for the last 15-20 and looked worse. The reality is we just need to get back to being better at doing what we do best. That means moving it with a bit more speed/intensity and players taking more risks with the ball. |
Exactly. "No plan B" is such an over-simplified, dumbed down term thrown out by supporters with likely a very rudimentary knowledge of the game.
A professional club works on different shapes and movement every week, and has plans for different scenarios and situations.
"Just play two up top," reduces the whole thing to a game of FIFA. |  | | |
| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 10:49 - Feb 17 with 1208 views | tractorboy1978 |
| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 10:42 - Feb 17 by FrimleyBlue |
Depends what you define as a plan.
We've seen morsy as a left inside forward
Harness as a CM
Clarke as a LB
Edwards on right. Left. Middle.
Etc etc
Tweaking things in hope something works imo isn't a plan. |
Tweaking things based on how the game is going is what managers have done for all of time. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. If it works the manager is a genius, if it doesn't they get stick. It's always been thus. | | | |
| George Hirst on 11:23 - Feb 17 with 1145 views | McCall |
| George Hirst on 18:51 - Feb 16 by Radlett_blue |
Hirst is 24 & has played over 100 League games, att his level or above. Bizarrely, he's contracted to Leicester until 2025, although I don't see him playing many Premier League gamesas he doesn't seem to have been good enough for the Championship. He was signed as a short term loan & I think we were entitled to hope for a bit more from him, although sometimes it's not easy to settle at a new club & system. |
Doesn't take a genius to work out he's a slow cart horse. What has he offered so far? He doesn't fit our team either. A bizarre McKenna signing. | | | |
| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 17:26 - Apr 30 with 802 views | blaggers |
There's dollops of hindsight and no little amount of humble pie to be consumed here, including from myself...were we really out of it in February? Evidently not, but no one would have predicted the run of form we would go on! |  |
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| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 17:31 - Apr 30 with 770 views | NeedhamChris |
| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 17:26 - Apr 30 by blaggers |
There's dollops of hindsight and no little amount of humble pie to be consumed here, including from myself...were we really out of it in February? Evidently not, but no one would have predicted the run of form we would go on! |
We were out of the automatics race unless we pulled out a run of form that you just don't see - but luckily for us fans that's exactly what the team did! | |
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| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 17:52 - Apr 30 with 693 views | jaykay |
football is a funny old game. i expect the time this thread went up , on owlstalk i expect they were already celebrating winning the league. |  |
| forensic experts say footers and spruces fingerprints were not found at the scene after the weekends rows |
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| George Hirst on 17:53 - Apr 30 with 687 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| George Hirst on 11:23 - Feb 17 by McCall |
Doesn't take a genius to work out he's a slow cart horse. What has he offered so far? He doesn't fit our team either. A bizarre McKenna signing. |
This one aged well.
I presume you are somewhat happier with him now he has played a bit. |  |
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| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 17:54 - Apr 30 with 682 views | Steve_M |
| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 17:26 - Apr 30 by blaggers |
There's dollops of hindsight and no little amount of humble pie to be consumed here, including from myself...were we really out of it in February? Evidently not, but no one would have predicted the run of form we would go on! |
Perhaps the main point is far we as fans tend to overanalyse and look for patterns from a small sample size but also that new signings can take time to fit in, especially to a side that plays in a more sophisticated manner as we do.
There was definitely a bit of a problem in the sort of tedious away matches - small pitch, high sh1thousery - this division specialises in but my view at the time (along with a few others) that it was a bit more about belief than ability or the system. Obviously Luongo (where it was reasonable to question his fitness in mid-Feb) and Hirst (rather less so) getting up to speed added more dimensions to our play whilst Clarke and Broadhead have both been significant upgrades.
The approach from McKenna didn’t change, and rightly so, but there were a couple of turning points after this thread started I think:
1) Winning at Milton Keynes, a bit scrappy and fortunate not to concede from their one chance (or five chances in one) but we dragged ourselves to an away win that saw the players visibly relieved at full time;
2) Bolton away built on that, the first of four very good away wins but again demonstrated that our way of playing would work. [Post edited 30 Apr 2023 18:04]
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| George Hirst on 18:00 - Apr 30 with 627 views | Swansea_Blue |
| George Hirst on 17:53 - Apr 30 by Nthsuffolkblue |
This one aged well.
I presume you are somewhat happier with him now he has played a bit. |
Not a dig at the poster, but there’s certainly a lesson here about letting a player at least get their feet under the table. He did look lost to begin with, which shows how much fitness maters doesn’t it? That was compounded by Freddie hitting a bit of form at that time, so lots of us had raised eyebrows at the time. And we still seem to be carefully managing Hirst’s fitness now. Imagine what he could do with a full pre-season under his belt with us. I hope we get the chance and we can snap him up.
In hindsight it was a superb piece of management by KM, to not only know he was what we needed but also to integrate him into the team. |  |
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