| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. 22:44 - Feb 14 with 15948 views | GlasgowBlue |
KM came in last year when the club was at its lowest ebb. We were badly underperforming and the defeat to Charlton was as low as it could get.
He had an instant positive effect and got a talented squad playing some lovely football, and we had belief back in the team. Everything coming out of the dressing room suggested that training was far better and that the new manager was like a great of fresh air. This was even said by players after he let them go, like a Norwood and Bonne.
That carried over to this season and we got off to a flyer. Joe will have the exact stats but after 46 games McKenna had us on something like 88 points. Just short of automatic promotion form.
Everything looked good. Ok we had a dip in form, illness and injuries but got ourselves back to the top of the table a week before Christmas. Despite a defeat to Wycombe we followed it up with a convincing Boxing Day thrashing of Oxford, playing sone of our best football of the season.
There was nothing to suggest that we would take a massive dip in form. But we did. Maybe the cup games papered over the cracks, but we weren’t playing with the same intensity and confidence as the first third of the season.
Something has changed within the team. Is it a lack of confidence? And if so where has that come from? I don’t agree that we haven’t got over Charlton, as we had some good results after that game, though not enough. Was it the last minute equaliser at home to Plymouth? That really seems to have knocked the stuffing out of us.
Is it the constant tinkering with our central defence? I understand why he’s done it because as individuals all of our central defenders have been culpable in giving away some very easy goals.
Is it the midfield? Before Evans first injury, him and Morsy were running the show. Humphreys came in and played some good games but Morsy’s game seemed to suffer. He was having to do so much more work to cover for a talented but inexperienced youngster. When Evans came back, he wasn’t the same players as the one we saw pre injury. And now he’s out again. Morsy looks absolutely knackered playing on a Saturday and Tuesday.
One thing I have noticed in recent games is that our midfield isn’t as dynamic and dominant as in previous games. They set the tempo for the rest of the team and we no longer play with pace and intensity. Everything seems to have slowed down. We’ve even started to pump long balls from the back and completely bypass the midfield.
Does anyone else have a view on why we have hit a brick wall and started drawing games instead of winning them?
[Post edited 14 Feb 2023 22:48]
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| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 23:56 - Feb 14 with 1672 views | HungryLikeTheWoolf |
I think psychologically, it must help the opposition that so many lesser teams have got points against us already just by having men behind the ball and holding on for a point - they know that if they do that, there's a fair chance of them getting a point too, whereas 6 months ago it seemed that teams were in awe of us and went into the game expecting to lose |  | | |
| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 23:56 - Feb 14 with 1675 views | TresBonne |
Honestly starting to wonder about the 'analytics' side of it and how much that's playing a part.
I feel like analytics, data based assumptions etc are what's causing the rotation of the team. McKenna constantly speaks about how the opposition played vs what he expected them to play like, see tonight's presser explaining how he thought Bristol would be much more willing to play.
Subs often feel pre-mediated, possibly based on the stats of who does what off the bench.
Unfortunately, football's done on the pitch and not on paper. Feel as though we over analyse opposition, their style of play and what we might do to combat it, rather than making in-game decisions on what to do or just focusing on setting ourselves up first. |  | | |
| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 23:58 - Feb 14 with 1655 views | Garv |
We've been fairly average for a good while now for me, going back before Wycombe/Oxford. We've risen to the occasions that were the Plymouth and Wednesday games and we were the better side in both overall (but still haven't found it in us to win).
It's nice to see us bypassing the midfield a bit more. Our best chance tonight came from Morsy doing exactly that.
I've said from fairly early on - we don't really have match winners. Players who will win you a game from nothing when you've been rubbish. Broadhead might change that, he rescued things on Saturday after all. But not enough of them are capable. Even Chaplin, arguably our best attacking player, needs good service to score goals. He scores goals and plays well when the team plays well. If the team's off it, he will be too. |  |
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| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 00:03 - Feb 15 with 1644 views | urbanblue |
Squad rotation is, I believe, a major problem. Players just don't seem to know where they stand and probably realise however well they play will not necessarily keep their place. For example, Ladapo, at the top of his game ... dropped. Jackson, on fire in the Burnley games. Only played 10 minutes since.
Management can talk about rotation as much as they want. Players want to play and I refuse to believe that being 'rested' or 'dropped' whatever you want to call it doesn't affect their mood or confidence.
We have too many players to keep happy and an answer to this has to be found. If you play well you keep the shirt. If you don't someone else gets the chance. Burns needs a rest and I suspect Davis too. Neither have been performing at their previous levels at all. Let Jackson and Leigh, who have been performing have a run. Greg Leigh in particular must be so frustrated. Such a good player who we were all purring about in the early games.
In summery keep with the players hungry and in form. [Post edited 15 Feb 2023 0:06]
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| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 05:50 - Feb 15 with 1515 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 23:14 - Feb 14 by King_ding_a_lin_g |
It's the midfield.
Luongo, Evans, Camara, Ball... four players who, when fit, get in the side ahead of Humphreys.
He shouldn't be being asked to play Saturday, Tuesday at this stage of the season nor in a team which is low on confidence. |
Thank god we signed an unfit Luongo in January then, when 2 of those were already out injured and the other returning from one… |  |
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| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 07:02 - Feb 15 with 1447 views | ElephantintheRoom |
Buying too many players - usually in positions that were already overfilled. You may recall on here the excitement generated by the highly questionable and very expensive January acquisitions? We’re now living with the consequences
The end result is that McKenna’s team selection is like a toddler in a pick and mix. It looks good on paper - but ends up giving you a nasty taste in the mouth.
Or to put it another way - it’s like when your employer brings in talent based on a gobby interview and an evasive CV. You as an established worker know they’re not as good as you - but your employer pays them more to be less effective. You don’t work quite as well as you did and you’re not as happy. |  |
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| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 07:07 - Feb 15 with 1435 views | Dubtractor |
| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 05:50 - Feb 15 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
Thank god we signed an unfit Luongo in January then, when 2 of those were already out injured and the other returning from one… |
Just signing Luongo seemed brave at the time, it seems foolish now.
You have to assume they were confident Evans was over his injury problems, but that evidently wasn't the case. |  |
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| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 07:08 - Feb 15 with 1425 views | chicoazul |
| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 00:03 - Feb 15 by urbanblue |
Squad rotation is, I believe, a major problem. Players just don't seem to know where they stand and probably realise however well they play will not necessarily keep their place. For example, Ladapo, at the top of his game ... dropped. Jackson, on fire in the Burnley games. Only played 10 minutes since.
Management can talk about rotation as much as they want. Players want to play and I refuse to believe that being 'rested' or 'dropped' whatever you want to call it doesn't affect their mood or confidence.
We have too many players to keep happy and an answer to this has to be found. If you play well you keep the shirt. If you don't someone else gets the chance. Burns needs a rest and I suspect Davis too. Neither have been performing at their previous levels at all. Let Jackson and Leigh, who have been performing have a run. Greg Leigh in particular must be so frustrated. Such a good player who we were all purring about in the early games.
In summery keep with the players hungry and in form. [Post edited 15 Feb 2023 0:06]
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Think there’s a lot in this. Pick the best 11 and stick with it as much as possible. |  |
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| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 07:08 - Feb 15 with 1433 views | Powrigan |
Walton has turned into a bit of a calamity, so more mistakes from the defence are being capitalised on. [Post edited 15 Feb 2023 7:11]
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| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 07:42 - Feb 15 with 1375 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 07:07 - Feb 15 by Dubtractor |
Just signing Luongo seemed brave at the time, it seems foolish now.
You have to assume they were confident Evans was over his injury problems, but that evidently wasn't the case. |
Must admit I thought he was a good signing at the time, as an experienced short term option covering Ball and Camara until they were back
However that belief was based on the assumption that he was basically ready to play, which has clearly turned out to be wrong, so now the signing is just looking bizarre | |
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| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 07:52 - Feb 15 with 1363 views | GlasgowBlue |
I’ll also throw in that individually, too many players form has dropped off considerably.
Walton: looks like he has zero confidence or belief.
Woolfenden: was like a Rolls Royce at the beginning of the season. Calmly carry the ball from the back. So important to starting May of our attacks. Scoring the odd goal. Another with zero confidence and seems to have lost the ability to pass the Ball.
Davis: never the best defensively, but a massive attacking threat. Was odds on to be many supporters player of the season. Doesn’t look like he’s lost confidence but has been average recently.
Harness: Could give the ball away but countered that with the ability to score important goals. Another player who looks average. Like Evans, was he rushed back from injury too soon. No coincidence that both his and a Evans form has been nowhere near what we saw pre injury.
Burns: simply hasn’t been anywhere near the player we saw last season. Had lost the ability to take on defenders.
Morsy: I’m excusing him from the list as even during our poor run he has carried the team. Not a ‘young’ player, he’s had to cover for Humphreys inexperience singlehanded, but he looks knackered.
Edit. Oh, and our inability to put together a run of wins. Plymouth, Wednesday, Bolton, Derby, Barnsley, Wycombe and even Shrewsbury have put runs of four, five or six wins on the bounce together. Sone of those multiple times. Even struggling Burton had won three on the bounce before last night. Why can’t we put a run together with the talent we have? Truly baffled. [Post edited 15 Feb 2023 8:00]
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| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 08:02 - Feb 15 with 1311 views | Steve_M |
| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 23:16 - Feb 14 by LankHenners |
If I had to choose two words for it they'd be 'tempo' and 'belief'.
The former seems to have crept in over the last couple of months or so. Always thought Evans and Morsy had a tendency to hold onto the ball for too long and take too many touches between them but since Evans was out then came back from injury it ramped up and we really do move the ball so slowly. We've lost how to really attack teams - earlier in the season (MK Dons, Shrewsbury) we'd blow the other team out the water so quickly we'd have the game done early then comfortably hold it out or (Accrington, Cambridge) we'd be so relentless that we'd find the breakthrough after wearing the opposition down so much. Now we're over patient and over cautious for whatever reason, and think it has to do with the latter word.
Agree with you that it's too simple to blame it all on Charlton, although the difference between coming back to win 4-2 having been pegged back to 2-2 and what actually happened must have quite different effects on mindset and what did happen that day has probably contributed to the overall lack of confidence/belief in our ability to get games done. There have been too many games where we've failed to break a team down or conceded late when we've been on top and I think that's just slowly been grinding away at the players.
Maybe they've been too quick, perhaps subconsciously, to think they're over a bad spell? A 3-0 win over Oxford gets them thinking they've blown away cobwebs then rescue a point against a very out of sorts Portsmouth side days later. A morale-boosting performance against an all-but-in-name Prem side in the FA Cup and a thrashing of Morecambe is followed by an awful performance and result at Cambridge. A spirited 2nd half against Wednesday where the word afterwards is it's something positive to take into the next game but they remain just words and we have another stinker tonight.
Perhaps, for all they tell the media and themselves that there's a long way to go and plenty of games to play, inwardly they're worrying about what's going on which either freezes them up a bit which sees results like tonight and in our recent away games, or panics them into things like conceding last minute against Plymouth or being so wasteful and making bad decisions against Lincoln. More than a coincidence that the best recent performances have been in essentially zero-pressure games in the cup or against Morecambe where we go in front and extend the lead so quickly everyone can relax?
In short, on the pitch that midfield needs sorting, we've been unlucky that almost the entirety of it has been injured all season, but hopefully Luongo is ready soon as he seems closest to being fit and I think would make a difference. Off it we somehow need to shake ourselves out of this lack of belief and confidence. Easiest way to do it is to win a bunch in a row but obviously tough to do, especially in our current form, and therefore becomes a negative spiral.
Bonus point, looking forward to seeing TJJ back soon - think we've missed him more than people realise and think he's someone that can grab something from nothing which we might have to do to pull ourselves back to how we know we can be. |
Yes, I'm broadly with you here. It's largely a mental thing at the moment I think, we started fairly well last night but noticeably slowed down our passing after 20 minutes and never really got that going again.
It's also the case that McKenna hasn't gone through such a poor run as a manager, and doesn't have a template to resolve it. After a blip McCarthy, for example, would tighten up at the back, work harder on getting the defensive side organised and go from there.
At the moment we seem to be trying a few too many different things, some are working well enough - e.g. longer balls leading to the free kick Broadhead scored from Saturday as well as his chance last night and the early corner against Morecombe - but the whole looks even more disjointed. |  |
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| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 08:06 - Feb 15 with 1293 views | StokieBlue |
| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 07:52 - Feb 15 by GlasgowBlue |
I’ll also throw in that individually, too many players form has dropped off considerably.
Walton: looks like he has zero confidence or belief.
Woolfenden: was like a Rolls Royce at the beginning of the season. Calmly carry the ball from the back. So important to starting May of our attacks. Scoring the odd goal. Another with zero confidence and seems to have lost the ability to pass the Ball.
Davis: never the best defensively, but a massive attacking threat. Was odds on to be many supporters player of the season. Doesn’t look like he’s lost confidence but has been average recently.
Harness: Could give the ball away but countered that with the ability to score important goals. Another player who looks average. Like Evans, was he rushed back from injury too soon. No coincidence that both his and a Evans form has been nowhere near what we saw pre injury.
Burns: simply hasn’t been anywhere near the player we saw last season. Had lost the ability to take on defenders.
Morsy: I’m excusing him from the list as even during our poor run he has carried the team. Not a ‘young’ player, he’s had to cover for Humphreys inexperience singlehanded, but he looks knackered.
Edit. Oh, and our inability to put together a run of wins. Plymouth, Wednesday, Bolton, Derby, Barnsley, Wycombe and even Shrewsbury have put runs of four, five or six wins on the bounce together. Sone of those multiple times. Even struggling Burton had won three on the bounce before last night. Why can’t we put a run together with the talent we have? Truly baffled. [Post edited 15 Feb 2023 8:00]
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I think your point on Wolf is spot on.
Both Wolf and Burgess are too slow when passing forwards and their default position is a slow sideways pass or into the feet of Morsy and the other team are back. That's fine if that's what McKenna wants but then when the other team is back it's now turning into a long ball and Burgess especially is being exposed for his distribution. He outperformed in that area earlier in the season but he's reverted to the mean and his distribution is poor. So many aimless passes.
I think Humphreys should get a mention, he was very poor last night, poor passing and easily brushed aside in the challenge. He's clearly quality but I think it's probably a bit much to be relying on him in our current situation - we desperately need our CM back and fit.
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| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 08:09 - Feb 15 with 1267 views | urbanblue |
| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 07:08 - Feb 15 by chicoazul |
Think there’s a lot in this. Pick the best 11 and stick with it as much as possible. |
Not the best 11 per se and by reputation. The best 11 in form at that time ... | | | |
| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 08:13 - Feb 15 with 1238 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 08:06 - Feb 15 by StokieBlue |
I think your point on Wolf is spot on.
Both Wolf and Burgess are too slow when passing forwards and their default position is a slow sideways pass or into the feet of Morsy and the other team are back. That's fine if that's what McKenna wants but then when the other team is back it's now turning into a long ball and Burgess especially is being exposed for his distribution. He outperformed in that area earlier in the season but he's reverted to the mean and his distribution is poor. So many aimless passes.
I think Humphreys should get a mention, he was very poor last night, poor passing and easily brushed aside in the challenge. He's clearly quality but I think it's probably a bit much to be relying on him in our current situation - we desperately need our CM back and fit.
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We will have an embarrassment of riches challenging for two midfield spots………in May. That’s a massive problem. Camara, we knew was maybe one for the future. Luongo needed game time but wasn’t injured. We couldn’t predict Evans and Ball would both have long term injuries. | |
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| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 08:18 - Feb 15 with 1222 views | PrideOfTheEast |
| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 22:57 - Feb 14 by SitfcB |
It’s odd because the first half against Morecambe was brilliant, quick pressing football, looked like we would score every opportunity, then we had the Burnley game, great performance then dire against Cambridge. |
We got the early goal and that makes a massive difference. | | | |
| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 08:20 - Feb 15 with 1217 views | PrideOfTheEast |
| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 08:06 - Feb 15 by StokieBlue |
I think your point on Wolf is spot on.
Both Wolf and Burgess are too slow when passing forwards and their default position is a slow sideways pass or into the feet of Morsy and the other team are back. That's fine if that's what McKenna wants but then when the other team is back it's now turning into a long ball and Burgess especially is being exposed for his distribution. He outperformed in that area earlier in the season but he's reverted to the mean and his distribution is poor. So many aimless passes.
I think Humphreys should get a mention, he was very poor last night, poor passing and easily brushed aside in the challenge. He's clearly quality but I think it's probably a bit much to be relying on him in our current situation - we desperately need our CM back and fit.
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Agreed on Humphrey’s. It is very disappointing that he is having to play more games than he’s ready for when KM etc talk about protecting and controlling the development of young players. We clearly should have signed another central midfielder in January. | | | |
| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 08:30 - Feb 15 with 1199 views | Bluebell |
I think it says it all when you see who has been voted MOM. Broadhead was a sub!
When the team was announced several people on here were surprised that Broadhead, Hirst and Clarke weren’t starting. We were too. We said the subs were better than the team!
I know we have a big squad and McKenna wants to give all the players a chance but it is time to choose our best eleven and stick to it. The players need to make partnerships and that can’t happen if they are not playing with the same people regularly. |  | | |
| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 08:42 - Feb 15 with 1160 views | DJR |
I think the issue for me is that we don't have the players to play through the middle.
Perhaps because of this, or because it is what McKenna wants, virtually everything comes down the wing. But the problem with that is that we don't have decent crossers, and we also don't have people in the box who take up the correct positions.
In many ways, the obsession with going out wide is pretty old fashioned, given Sir Alf Ramsey's wingless wonders.
Of course, if you look at decent teams they also attack from out wide but they also have the ability to attack centrally (the 1981 team was a classic example). But we don't have that variety in our game, and it is clear that opposition teams these days know that, are content for us to go out wide, and are set up to defend the crosses.
The contrast with Sheffield Wednesday couldn't be greater because lots of thing come through the centre in Barry Bannan who is always looking for the quick pass, in contrast to our midfielders who dwell on the ball (Morsy) or merely play it diagonally (Evans). [Post edited 15 Feb 2023 8:44]
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| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 08:44 - Feb 15 with 1151 views | StokieBlue |
| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 08:42 - Feb 15 by DJR |
I think the issue for me is that we don't have the players to play through the middle.
Perhaps because of this, or because it is what McKenna wants, virtually everything comes down the wing. But the problem with that is that we don't have decent crossers, and we also don't have people in the box who take up the correct positions.
In many ways, the obsession with going out wide is pretty old fashioned, given Sir Alf Ramsey's wingless wonders.
Of course, if you look at decent teams they also attack from out wide but they also have the ability to attack centrally (the 1981 team was a classic example). But we don't have that variety in our game, and it is clear that opposition teams these days know that, are content for us to go out wide, and are set up to defend the crosses.
The contrast with Sheffield Wednesday couldn't be greater because lots of thing come through the centre in Barry Bannan who is always looking for the quick pass, in contrast to our midfielders who dwell on the ball (Morsy) or merely play it diagonally (Evans). [Post edited 15 Feb 2023 8:44]
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Sheffield Wednesday were route one though, lump it quickly forward to Smith and hope that Windass can pick up the pieces.
Bannon is just better than our midfielders, it's not really anything to do with their style of play.
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| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 08:50 - Feb 15 with 1108 views | DJR |
| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 08:44 - Feb 15 by StokieBlue |
Sheffield Wednesday were route one though, lump it quickly forward to Smith and hope that Windass can pick up the pieces.
Bannon is just better than our midfielders, it's not really anything to do with their style of play.
SB |
I think the thing with Sheffield Wednesday is that, with Barry Bannan and obviously the height of some of their players, they just have more facets to their game than us.
And I think it is a bit harsh to say they just lump it forward. Their first goal on Saturday was a good a team goal as you will see, but played at the sort of pace, following a quick free kick by Bannan, that we just don't play at. | | | |
| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 08:57 - Feb 15 with 1094 views | BseaBlue |
| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 08:44 - Feb 15 by StokieBlue |
Sheffield Wednesday were route one though, lump it quickly forward to Smith and hope that Windass can pick up the pieces.
Bannon is just better than our midfielders, it's not really anything to do with their style of play.
SB |
' it's not really anything to do with their style of play'
I think in your first sentence you have countered your own point Stokie. They have it in their locker to mix it up and play off the front man which is winning them games.
We persist with sideways and backwards and huffing and puffing because we dont have that as a plan b. |  | | |
| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 09:08 - Feb 15 with 1036 views | StokieBlue |
| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 08:57 - Feb 15 by BseaBlue |
' it's not really anything to do with their style of play'
I think in your first sentence you have countered your own point Stokie. They have it in their locker to mix it up and play off the front man which is winning them games.
We persist with sideways and backwards and huffing and puffing because we dont have that as a plan b. |
They might mix it up a bit but my point is that their main plan is to go direct (which they did constantly against us) and then they have Bannon who is just better than other midfielders in this league who can mix it up. It didn't look especially like a plan to do that, just that they have a quality player who can do that on his own impulse.
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| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 09:08 - Feb 15 with 1037 views | textbackup |
Hang on, you said we’d still make top 2?! |  |
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| Ok. Let’s have a grown up conversation about where things have gone wrong. on 09:15 - Feb 15 with 1001 views | DJR |
We now have numerous backroom staff, but it's not clear to me they are earning their keep.
Obviously, we now have better players than under Lambert, but the way things are going, it makes me wonder if we would be any worse off if it were Lee O'Neil doing it all.
Have we just ended up going for numbers rather than quality?
The recruitment room seems a case in point since we appear to have acquired several players with fitness problems, or in the case of Keogh really past it. Indeed, it seemed astonishing to me to read that Broadhead (a professional footballer) might not be fit enough for the McKenna style.
And if you look at, say, Walton, is both his drop in form and confidence down to a poor goalkeeping coach, as well as motivational staff who can't motivate?
Incidentally, it made me chuckle to hear that some of the smaller grounds barely have the dugout capacity for all our hangers on, but maybe the real issue is supply chain issues with the Tom Brady isotonic drinks.
Still, if we don't go up this season, maybe things will be better next season with an additional 150 backroom staff. [Post edited 15 Feb 2023 9:35]
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