| I've not been following the British coverage... 14:54 - Jun 19 with 5454 views | SpruceMoose |
... but do my fellow posters agree with the premise of this article? Could it be another example of women having to work twice as hard as their male colleagues to just get the same credit?
https://www.theguardian.com/football/shortcuts/2018/jun/18/eni-aluko-alex-scott- |  |
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| I've not been following the British coverage... on 14:56 - Jun 19 with 2520 views | Steve_M |
I've not really listened to Aluko but Alex Scott has been very good. It's not even working twice as hard in her case, it's just doing the job properly and adding insight for the viewer. |  |
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| I've not been following the British coverage... on 14:59 - Jun 19 with 2498 views | SpruceMoose |
| I've not been following the British coverage... on 14:56 - Jun 19 by Steve_M |
I've not really listened to Aluko but Alex Scott has been very good. It's not even working twice as hard in her case, it's just doing the job properly and adding insight for the viewer. |
I wonder if the numerous pundits who have been allowed to coast by on cliches and bluffs, rather than actually use their noggin and put a bit of effort in are a bit upset?
These women, disrupting the cosy boys club of doing the bare minimum and not being bothered will not be tolerated. | |
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| I've not been following the British coverage... on 15:05 - Jun 19 with 2480 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
Just a small point... wheres the evidence that the male pundits don't put any work in??
Very strange article.
I dont think theres anything to suggest those two women are working any harder than the men. |  |
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| I've not been following the British coverage... on 15:08 - Jun 19 with 2470 views | SpruceMoose |
| I've not been following the British coverage... on 15:05 - Jun 19 by Marshalls_Mullet |
Just a small point... wheres the evidence that the male pundits don't put any work in??
Very strange article.
I dont think theres anything to suggest those two women are working any harder than the men. |
Well, as I have said I've not seen the coverage, which is why I am asking those who have. I have read several articles calling out the likes of Seville and Evra for coming across as being spectacularly clueless during the world cup coverage. And if that is true, there's really no excuse.
And in a male dominated industry, I don't think it is unfair to say that women have to put in extra effort in order to be seen as equals. This view isn't that unusual. We have even had posts on here along the lines of 'I can't take a woman pundit seriously'. Do you see what I mean? They aren't always judged on what they say.
When I was able to follow British coverage, many of the pundits seemed, to me at least, to be rather ill informed and just got by on regurgitating bad opinions, cliches, and 'bantz'. [Post edited 19 Jun 2018 15:17]
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"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| I've not been following the British coverage... on 15:11 - Jun 19 with 2457 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
| I've not been following the British coverage... on 15:08 - Jun 19 by SpruceMoose |
Well, as I have said I've not seen the coverage, which is why I am asking those who have. I have read several articles calling out the likes of Seville and Evra for coming across as being spectacularly clueless during the world cup coverage. And if that is true, there's really no excuse.
And in a male dominated industry, I don't think it is unfair to say that women have to put in extra effort in order to be seen as equals. This view isn't that unusual. We have even had posts on here along the lines of 'I can't take a woman pundit seriously'. Do you see what I mean? They aren't always judged on what they say.
When I was able to follow British coverage, many of the pundits seemed, to me at least, to be rather ill informed and just got by on regurgitating bad opinions, cliches, and 'bantz'. [Post edited 19 Jun 2018 15:17]
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Maybe, but Evra not being a good pundit has nothing to do with gender.
I don't get the obsession with making it all about gender (the journo, not you), just seems a bit counter productive.
Why could she not just say.... Aluko and Scott are doing a superb job etc etc. Its quite old fashioned of the journo to make it about gender.
Very distasteful to generalise about the male pundits in that way.
Also remember that Evra is doing his punditry in his second language....... [Post edited 19 Jun 2018 15:14]
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| I've not been following the British coverage... on 15:14 - Jun 19 with 2439 views | SpruceMoose |
| I've not been following the British coverage... on 15:11 - Jun 19 by Marshalls_Mullet |
Maybe, but Evra not being a good pundit has nothing to do with gender.
I don't get the obsession with making it all about gender (the journo, not you), just seems a bit counter productive.
Why could she not just say.... Aluko and Scott are doing a superb job etc etc. Its quite old fashioned of the journo to make it about gender.
Very distasteful to generalise about the male pundits in that way.
Also remember that Evra is doing his punditry in his second language....... [Post edited 19 Jun 2018 15:14]
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I would say it's because women pundits aren't starting out on level footing. Being a male seems to give you instant credibility whether that's deserved or not. Female sports pundits often have to overcome the simple fact that they are a woman before they are taken seriously. There's always an element of surprise when they turn out to know what they are doing.
I assumed the article was written through a gendered perspective in response to a lot of the chatter about how, surprise surprise, they were preforming well as pundits. | |
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| I've not been following the British coverage... on 15:16 - Jun 19 with 2433 views | SpruceMoose |
| I've not been following the British coverage... on 15:11 - Jun 19 by Marshalls_Mullet |
Maybe, but Evra not being a good pundit has nothing to do with gender.
I don't get the obsession with making it all about gender (the journo, not you), just seems a bit counter productive.
Why could she not just say.... Aluko and Scott are doing a superb job etc etc. Its quite old fashioned of the journo to make it about gender.
Very distasteful to generalise about the male pundits in that way.
Also remember that Evra is doing his punditry in his second language....... [Post edited 19 Jun 2018 15:14]
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It's not distasteful. Are you telling me the likes of Savage, Lawrenson and Sutton are spending the hours honing their craft? They are there because of the old boys club. | |
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"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| I've not been following the British coverage... on 15:17 - Jun 19 with 2425 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
| I've not been following the British coverage... on 15:14 - Jun 19 by SpruceMoose |
I would say it's because women pundits aren't starting out on level footing. Being a male seems to give you instant credibility whether that's deserved or not. Female sports pundits often have to overcome the simple fact that they are a woman before they are taken seriously. There's always an element of surprise when they turn out to know what they are doing.
I assumed the article was written through a gendered perspective in response to a lot of the chatter about how, surprise surprise, they were preforming well as pundits. |
Not sure that it does, male pundits are questioned all the time, it happens a lot on here.
Maybe I'm a little different, but I just judged Aluko etc as another pundit, not as a female pundit.
Buts its no surprise that female pundits have only just started to get a role in male football, the female game is in its infancy and has only just turned professional.
You wouldnt get many amateur male pundits on BBC would you. | |
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| I've not been following the British coverage... on 15:19 - Jun 19 with 2420 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
| I've not been following the British coverage... on 15:16 - Jun 19 by SpruceMoose |
It's not distasteful. Are you telling me the likes of Savage, Lawrenson and Sutton are spending the hours honing their craft? They are there because of the old boys club. |
I have no reason to suspect that they don't put any time in.
...and I have no reason to write all men off in one generalist statement. | |
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| I've not been following the British coverage... on 15:23 - Jun 19 with 2409 views | SpruceMoose |
| I've not been following the British coverage... on 15:17 - Jun 19 by Marshalls_Mullet |
Not sure that it does, male pundits are questioned all the time, it happens a lot on here.
Maybe I'm a little different, but I just judged Aluko etc as another pundit, not as a female pundit.
Buts its no surprise that female pundits have only just started to get a role in male football, the female game is in its infancy and has only just turned professional.
You wouldnt get many amateur male pundits on BBC would you. |
I'm not saying you are judging Aluko. If that's how you have responded to her than I would say that's the normal response. Which is good. I'd like to think I would judge her consider her performance on it's merits too.I know plenty of women who are obsessive about football, who have had season tickets for various clubs for many years. Their voice is just as valid. Being a male doesn't give us a special insight into football.
But loads of people don't respond that way. Even before she's opened her mouth there will be blokes thinking she shouldn't be there. Which is what I am saying, in a male dominated industry, women usually have to fight to be seen as equals.
As to your amateur pundit point, I can think of plenty of male journalists who haven't played and who haven't struggled to get TV pundit roles, so being an ex-pro isn't a prerequisite. | |
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| I've not been following the British coverage... on 15:24 - Jun 19 with 2400 views | DanFord |
Alex Scott is an outstanding pundit. Aluko is terrible. A bit like Gary Neville being an excellent pundit and Phil Neville being a poor one. They are brothers, played for the same club, have the same skin tone and it seems we can be objective that one is just good and one is just bad. The sad thing about women pundits and the way some are struggling with them being there is that unlike actually playing the game, where the best women would not stand a chance with the best men, a woman is just as capable of providing a valid assessment or opinion on football as a man. Both these women have about 100 England caps and in all fairness know the game much better than anyone on this message board and any who comments on the Guardian website. I guess part of the problem is also that anyone suggesting Aluko is rubbish may be in fear of being told it's just because she's a woman, as if there aren't plenty of awful male pundits. |  |
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| I've not been following the British coverage... on 15:24 - Jun 19 with 2399 views | SpruceMoose |
| I've not been following the British coverage... on 15:19 - Jun 19 by Marshalls_Mullet |
I have no reason to suspect that they don't put any time in.
...and I have no reason to write all men off in one generalist statement. |
Who is saying all men? That's muddying the waters. | |
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"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| I've not been following the British coverage... on 15:28 - Jun 19 with 2391 views | SpruceMoose |
| I've not been following the British coverage... on 15:24 - Jun 19 by DanFord |
Alex Scott is an outstanding pundit. Aluko is terrible. A bit like Gary Neville being an excellent pundit and Phil Neville being a poor one. They are brothers, played for the same club, have the same skin tone and it seems we can be objective that one is just good and one is just bad. The sad thing about women pundits and the way some are struggling with them being there is that unlike actually playing the game, where the best women would not stand a chance with the best men, a woman is just as capable of providing a valid assessment or opinion on football as a man. Both these women have about 100 England caps and in all fairness know the game much better than anyone on this message board and any who comments on the Guardian website. I guess part of the problem is also that anyone suggesting Aluko is rubbish may be in fear of being told it's just because she's a woman, as if there aren't plenty of awful male pundits. |
I think if they are able to articulate valid reasons for thinking she's crap then they shouldn't be afraid to voice, and defend, their thoughts as necessary. | |
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"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| I've not been following the British coverage... on 15:29 - Jun 19 with 2387 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
| I've not been following the British coverage... on 15:23 - Jun 19 by SpruceMoose |
I'm not saying you are judging Aluko. If that's how you have responded to her than I would say that's the normal response. Which is good. I'd like to think I would judge her consider her performance on it's merits too.I know plenty of women who are obsessive about football, who have had season tickets for various clubs for many years. Their voice is just as valid. Being a male doesn't give us a special insight into football.
But loads of people don't respond that way. Even before she's opened her mouth there will be blokes thinking she shouldn't be there. Which is what I am saying, in a male dominated industry, women usually have to fight to be seen as equals.
As to your amateur pundit point, I can think of plenty of male journalists who haven't played and who haven't struggled to get TV pundit roles, so being an ex-pro isn't a prerequisite. |
You wont see any pundits working in the BBC studios at the world cup who aren't ex-pros, primarily seasoned internationals.
A journalist is different to a pundit, and will have worked hard to get to where they are.
When you think about commentators though, who haven't been pro's, they put in a tremendous amount of hard work.
Female pundits have only just got roles as pundits as the female game has only just turned professional. And professional experience at a high level is required to be a high level pundit. | |
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| I've not been following the British coverage... on 15:31 - Jun 19 with 2378 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
| I've not been following the British coverage... on 15:24 - Jun 19 by SpruceMoose |
Who is saying all men? That's muddying the waters. |
"There has been a stark contrast between Aluko on ITV and former Arsenal captain Alex Scott on the BBC — with 242 England caps between them — and their male colleagues, and it’s not their gender. They have, quite simply, done their homework."
So their male colleagues don't do their homework?
She could have said 'some of'..... | |
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| I've not been following the British coverage... on 15:32 - Jun 19 with 2375 views | DanFord |
| I've not been following the British coverage... on 15:28 - Jun 19 by SpruceMoose |
I think if they are able to articulate valid reasons for thinking she's crap then they shouldn't be afraid to voice, and defend, their thoughts as necessary. |
I fully agree, but the problem is that so many blokes will be dismissive of women pundits for a time yet until reality filters in. I know plenty of women who go to every Town away game. I go to half. I consider that I know plenty about Town and football but what on earth would make me think a woman who goes to more games than me would know less? It's just a bizarre attitude blokes still have. Alex Scott came across as Gary Neville good in her analysis. Aluko was another cliché machine who added nothing in my opinion. It's just sad there will be some that won't see how good Scott is because they'll be so blinded by prejudice. | |
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| I've not been following the British coverage... on 15:32 - Jun 19 with 2375 views | SpruceMoose |
| I've not been following the British coverage... on 15:29 - Jun 19 by Marshalls_Mullet |
You wont see any pundits working in the BBC studios at the world cup who aren't ex-pros, primarily seasoned internationals.
A journalist is different to a pundit, and will have worked hard to get to where they are.
When you think about commentators though, who haven't been pro's, they put in a tremendous amount of hard work.
Female pundits have only just got roles as pundits as the female game has only just turned professional. And professional experience at a high level is required to be a high level pundit. |
"professional experience at a high level is required to be a high level pundit."
Why? Do film critics need to have directed films? Do food critics need to have been chefs? Do I need to have written a book in order to form an educated opinion on certain literature?
The reason football pundits are mainly ex-pros is because it's an old boys network. Of course it's great to have an ex-pro's take on things, but the fact that they played professionally doesn't make other voices invalid. | |
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"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| I've not been following the British coverage... on 15:33 - Jun 19 with 2368 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
| I've not been following the British coverage... on 15:28 - Jun 19 by SpruceMoose |
I think if they are able to articulate valid reasons for thinking she's crap then they shouldn't be afraid to voice, and defend, their thoughts as necessary. |
In a similar way to how you wrote off Savage, Lawro and Sutton without reasons? | |
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| I've not been following the British coverage... on 15:34 - Jun 19 with 2367 views | DanFord |
| I've not been following the British coverage... on 15:31 - Jun 19 by Marshalls_Mullet |
"There has been a stark contrast between Aluko on ITV and former Arsenal captain Alex Scott on the BBC — with 242 England caps between them — and their male colleagues, and it’s not their gender. They have, quite simply, done their homework."
So their male colleagues don't do their homework?
She could have said 'some of'..... |
Again it's a lazy piece of guesswork based on two female pundits seemingly knowing their stuff. Lots of the male pundits do too. Alex Scott may have put no work in at all, done no research, but just knows the game which is why she comes across well. Phil Neville may have been up all night studying but then talks complete nonsense. It's a very lazy generalisation that cannot be backed up. Nobody knows how much 'homework' they've done, just whether they seem to know what they are talking about or not. | |
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| I've not been following the British coverage... on 15:35 - Jun 19 with 2363 views | SpruceMoose |
| I've not been following the British coverage... on 15:32 - Jun 19 by DanFord |
I fully agree, but the problem is that so many blokes will be dismissive of women pundits for a time yet until reality filters in. I know plenty of women who go to every Town away game. I go to half. I consider that I know plenty about Town and football but what on earth would make me think a woman who goes to more games than me would know less? It's just a bizarre attitude blokes still have. Alex Scott came across as Gary Neville good in her analysis. Aluko was another cliché machine who added nothing in my opinion. It's just sad there will be some that won't see how good Scott is because they'll be so blinded by prejudice. |
I agree. And I don't disagree with Marshall's points, which seem to be saying 'judge everyone on their merits'. I can get behind that. But I think it's important to recognise that not everybody starts off on a level playing field. | |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| I've not been following the British coverage... on 15:35 - Jun 19 with 2364 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
| I've not been following the British coverage... on 15:32 - Jun 19 by SpruceMoose |
"professional experience at a high level is required to be a high level pundit."
Why? Do film critics need to have directed films? Do food critics need to have been chefs? Do I need to have written a book in order to form an educated opinion on certain literature?
The reason football pundits are mainly ex-pros is because it's an old boys network. Of course it's great to have an ex-pro's take on things, but the fact that they played professionally doesn't make other voices invalid. |
I suspect film critics and food critics would be better at their job if they had a top level professional background.
Would I take more notice of what Martin Scorsese had to say about a film than say Jonathan Ross or Claudia Winkleman.
.....erm, yup. | |
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| I've not been following the British coverage... on 15:36 - Jun 19 with 2358 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
| I've not been following the British coverage... on 15:34 - Jun 19 by DanFord |
Again it's a lazy piece of guesswork based on two female pundits seemingly knowing their stuff. Lots of the male pundits do too. Alex Scott may have put no work in at all, done no research, but just knows the game which is why she comes across well. Phil Neville may have been up all night studying but then talks complete nonsense. It's a very lazy generalisation that cannot be backed up. Nobody knows how much 'homework' they've done, just whether they seem to know what they are talking about or not. |
I fully agree.
I don't understand the point of the article. Its regressive if anything. | |
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| I've not been following the British coverage... on 15:36 - Jun 19 with 2356 views | SpruceMoose |
| I've not been following the British coverage... on 15:33 - Jun 19 by Marshalls_Mullet |
In a similar way to how you wrote off Savage, Lawro and Sutton without reasons? |
I've written them off because of my experience of watching them talk sh!te and appear as being uniformed over many years? | |
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"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| I've not been following the British coverage... on 15:38 - Jun 19 with 2351 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
| I've not been following the British coverage... on 15:35 - Jun 19 by SpruceMoose |
I agree. And I don't disagree with Marshall's points, which seem to be saying 'judge everyone on their merits'. I can get behind that. But I think it's important to recognise that not everybody starts off on a level playing field. |
I get that, and agree with it.
But that counts for the men too, some of them will have had it easier than others.
And why is it OK for a journo to 'applaud' Aluko, but not OK for Evra to do it. Yes I realise it was a bit patronising, but the journo is doing the same thing. | |
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| I've not been following the British coverage... on 15:39 - Jun 19 with 2348 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
| I've not been following the British coverage... on 15:36 - Jun 19 by SpruceMoose |
I've written them off because of my experience of watching them talk sh!te and appear as being uniformed over many years? |
Thats fine, so its also OK for someone to just say 'Aluko is rubbish from what Ive seen', no need to articulate any further. | |
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