| Israel easing restrictions but only if you have a vaccination passport 09:34 - Feb 21 with 3612 views | StokieBlue |
After vaccinating half their population with the first dose they are opening up a number of sites such as gyms and religious locations but only if you've been vaccinated.
People will need a "green passport", based in an app, which proves they have been vaccinated or are exempt.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-56143126
How well would a system like that go down here? Looking at the papers today it would essentially mean that most things would stay closed for the younger age cohorts until the end of July. Doesn't seem that feasible given that timeline.
SB |  | | |  |
| Israel easing restrictions but only if you have a vaccination passport on 15:58 - Feb 21 with 501 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Israel easing restrictions but only if you have a vaccination passport on 14:07 - Feb 21 by StokieBlue |
This really isn't an argument, in fact it's just another angle of the slippery slope fallacy.
Places like Germany and France have had national ID cards for decades and it's not happened.
Give an example where it has happened?
SB |
Did Nazi Germany use id cards?
I saved you looking...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kennkarte |  |
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| Israel easing restrictions but only if you have a vaccination passport on 16:05 - Feb 21 with 490 views | StokieBlue |
Jumping straight to Nazi Germany in order to try and justify your point is essentially conceding the argument when plenty of other countries exist with ID cards.
So let's look at your case.
There were ~7 years of Nazism when an ID card existed in Germany. Since there there has been 70 years (since 1951) of ID cards existing in Germany without authoritarian rule. So Germany as an example wouldn't seem to support your point at all.
I would also argue that the ID cards didn't create the dystopian state, they were issued after it had already arrived.
Nobody is saying they would have to be carried all the time but the authoritarian arguments against them seem pretty weak unless someone can provide some better examples.
SB [Post edited 21 Feb 2021 16:09]
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| Israel easing restrictions but only if you have a vaccination passport on 16:12 - Feb 21 with 477 views | bluelagos |
Apartheid South Africa had the pass laws which required people to carry a pass that identified their racial group. The passes were used to control many aspects of life such as where a person could or couldn't go.
The idea that we would seek to identify those who have chosen not to accept a vaccine, so we can dictate where they can go and where they can't doesn't sit easily with me.
I say that as someone who will be getting vaccinated and hope as many people as possible do.
Our challenge should be how to convince as many people as possible to get vaccinated rather than seeking ways to further isolate those people (Many of whom are scared of the vaccine) from large parts of ordinary society. |  |
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| Israel easing restrictions but only if you have a vaccination passport on 16:13 - Feb 21 with 477 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Israel easing restrictions but only if you have a vaccination passport on 16:05 - Feb 21 by StokieBlue |
Jumping straight to Nazi Germany in order to try and justify your point is essentially conceding the argument when plenty of other countries exist with ID cards.
So let's look at your case.
There were ~7 years of Nazism when an ID card existed in Germany. Since there there has been 70 years (since 1951) of ID cards existing in Germany without authoritarian rule. So Germany as an example wouldn't seem to support your point at all.
I would also argue that the ID cards didn't create the dystopian state, they were issued after it had already arrived.
Nobody is saying they would have to be carried all the time but the authoritarian arguments against them seem pretty weak unless someone can provide some better examples.
SB [Post edited 21 Feb 2021 16:09]
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You asked for an example...I provided one. You really can't see the prospect of populist/authoritarian/corporate regimes using data in a dangerous way at any point in the future? | |
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| Israel easing restrictions but only if you have a vaccination passport on 16:21 - Feb 21 with 463 views | StokieBlue |
| Israel easing restrictions but only if you have a vaccination passport on 16:13 - Feb 21 by BanksterDebtSlave |
You asked for an example...I provided one. You really can't see the prospect of populist/authoritarian/corporate regimes using data in a dangerous way at any point in the future? |
You've reframed the question now to something that is totally different to my original point.
With regards specifically to ID which was the discussion (data which is your reframing is a far broader discussion), there are countless examples over a long period of time where this hasn't happened in other countries.
SB | | | |
| Israel easing restrictions but only if you have a vaccination passport on 16:24 - Feb 21 with 461 views | StokieBlue |
| Israel easing restrictions but only if you have a vaccination passport on 16:12 - Feb 21 by bluelagos |
Apartheid South Africa had the pass laws which required people to carry a pass that identified their racial group. The passes were used to control many aspects of life such as where a person could or couldn't go.
The idea that we would seek to identify those who have chosen not to accept a vaccine, so we can dictate where they can go and where they can't doesn't sit easily with me.
I say that as someone who will be getting vaccinated and hope as many people as possible do.
Our challenge should be how to convince as many people as possible to get vaccinated rather than seeking ways to further isolate those people (Many of whom are scared of the vaccine) from large parts of ordinary society. |
The real question to ask here is why are some people scared of the vaccine?
SB | | | |
| Israel easing restrictions but only if you have a vaccination passport on 16:29 - Feb 21 with 457 views | bluelagos |
| Israel easing restrictions but only if you have a vaccination passport on 16:21 - Feb 21 by StokieBlue |
You've reframed the question now to something that is totally different to my original point.
With regards specifically to ID which was the discussion (data which is your reframing is a far broader discussion), there are countless examples over a long period of time where this hasn't happened in other countries.
SB |
Your argument Stokie seems to be that as other countries have had ID cards which haven't been abused (as some feared) it's therefore not a risk for us?
I'd just challenge that by looking at our government's recent conduct during the windrush scandal. Our own government sought to create a "hostile environment" for illegal migrants that saw them deporting innocent people too.
Had we also had compulsory ID cards, it isn't a massive leap to see our police stopping people of colour and detaining them for a failure to produce ID. Once detained, many could/would end up illegally deported.
Our politicians have proven themselves quite capable of coming up with policies that illegally target minorities. Our police regularly targeting people of colour without good reason. The more powers we give them, the more we will see these powers being misused.
So it's a no thanks for me. Our politicians, authorities and police are dangerous enough as it is without giving them even more powers with little perceived benefits. | |
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| Israel easing restrictions but only if you have a vaccination passport on 16:31 - Feb 21 with 452 views | bluelagos |
| Israel easing restrictions but only if you have a vaccination passport on 16:24 - Feb 21 by StokieBlue |
The real question to ask here is why are some people scared of the vaccine?
SB |
Indeed. And carrying ID or a green passport is unlikely to address that very important question. | |
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| Israel easing restrictions but only if you have a vaccination passport on 16:32 - Feb 21 with 449 views | footers |
| Israel easing restrictions but only if you have a vaccination passport on 16:29 - Feb 21 by bluelagos |
Your argument Stokie seems to be that as other countries have had ID cards which haven't been abused (as some feared) it's therefore not a risk for us?
I'd just challenge that by looking at our government's recent conduct during the windrush scandal. Our own government sought to create a "hostile environment" for illegal migrants that saw them deporting innocent people too.
Had we also had compulsory ID cards, it isn't a massive leap to see our police stopping people of colour and detaining them for a failure to produce ID. Once detained, many could/would end up illegally deported.
Our politicians have proven themselves quite capable of coming up with policies that illegally target minorities. Our police regularly targeting people of colour without good reason. The more powers we give them, the more we will see these powers being misused.
So it's a no thanks for me. Our politicians, authorities and police are dangerous enough as it is without giving them even more powers with little perceived benefits. |
The good thing about this government is how incompetent they are. If they outsourced national IDs we'd all probably be listed as 200-year-old people of colour with three arms on the database anyway :) |  |
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| Israel easing restrictions but only if you have a vaccination passport on 16:34 - Feb 21 with 445 views | bluelagos |
| Israel easing restrictions but only if you have a vaccination passport on 16:32 - Feb 21 by footers |
The good thing about this government is how incompetent they are. If they outsourced national IDs we'd all probably be listed as 200-year-old people of colour with three arms on the database anyway :) |
I know where you are coming from. Especially when it comes to IT stuff. The test and trace app - is that even still going? | |
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| Israel easing restrictions but only if you have a vaccination passport on 16:39 - Feb 21 with 437 views | StokieBlue |
| Israel easing restrictions but only if you have a vaccination passport on 16:31 - Feb 21 by bluelagos |
Indeed. And carrying ID or a green passport is unlikely to address that very important question. |
They are do different points.
One is about opening up the country given the current status quo and one is about the messaging around scientific information and why it's not getting across to some people. I suspect it's because a lot of people rely far too heavily on social media to get their information but I have no studies to prove that hypothesis.
I'm not really sure if I am for or against something like a green passport for C19 vaccinations, I think you're going to struggle to see full cinemas, gigs or anything else indoors in the short-to-medium term without something like that though. The government here and elsewhere are unlikely to take the risk.
My general point around ID's in response to DBS was that there isn't much evidence that having them in this country will lead to the authoritarian regime he fears. I know you've cited some examples in your previous post but that's not what I said: I said they wouldn't be compulsory to carry but might be needed for some things (like a full cinema for instance). I do understand your points around the government (although the days of this one are hopefully finite) and the police (and perhaps the time is not yet to be fair) but sooner or later we need to stop using historical actions as a justification to not do something looking forward.
So in summary, I am not decided about it yet, understand the negative but believe the government are unlikely to allow some indoor things without some verification of vaccination in the medium term.
SB [Post edited 21 Feb 2021 16:40]
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| Israel easing restrictions but only if you have a vaccination passport on 16:40 - Feb 21 with 433 views | footers |
| Israel easing restrictions but only if you have a vaccination passport on 16:34 - Feb 21 by bluelagos |
I know where you are coming from. Especially when it comes to IT stuff. The test and trace app - is that even still going? |
God knows! But if EG is right and we've already got a private partner lined up to pitch this, it's certainly worrying. If not for authoritarian reasons then definitely for another massive waste of time and taxpayer cash.
I just can't see how they'd do it. They've proven they can't rollout these big IT projects properly many times over now, so how could or would they enforce it when they've shown every sign that they don't really want to.
It'll be some fudge of a voluntary app or some bollcks and no one will pay attention anyway. | |
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| Israel easing restrictions but only if you have a vaccination passport on 16:54 - Feb 21 with 419 views | bluelagos |
| Israel easing restrictions but only if you have a vaccination passport on 16:39 - Feb 21 by StokieBlue |
They are do different points.
One is about opening up the country given the current status quo and one is about the messaging around scientific information and why it's not getting across to some people. I suspect it's because a lot of people rely far too heavily on social media to get their information but I have no studies to prove that hypothesis.
I'm not really sure if I am for or against something like a green passport for C19 vaccinations, I think you're going to struggle to see full cinemas, gigs or anything else indoors in the short-to-medium term without something like that though. The government here and elsewhere are unlikely to take the risk.
My general point around ID's in response to DBS was that there isn't much evidence that having them in this country will lead to the authoritarian regime he fears. I know you've cited some examples in your previous post but that's not what I said: I said they wouldn't be compulsory to carry but might be needed for some things (like a full cinema for instance). I do understand your points around the government (although the days of this one are hopefully finite) and the police (and perhaps the time is not yet to be fair) but sooner or later we need to stop using historical actions as a justification to not do something looking forward.
So in summary, I am not decided about it yet, understand the negative but believe the government are unlikely to allow some indoor things without some verification of vaccination in the medium term.
SB [Post edited 21 Feb 2021 16:40]
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"My general point around ID's in response to DBS was that there isn't much evidence that having them in this country will lead to the authoritarian regime he fears."
My point is that I don't want to wait for evidence of them being misused - I simply don't trust our politicians/authorities or police enough to even give them the opportunity to misuse them. Once they are out there, they are out there forever.
And one day we might just have a Farage type in power. Or Priti Patel, who was happily calling for the death penalty just a few years ago and could easily be our PM in the next few years. | |
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| Had a quick word with GB's archivist Stokie... on 14:14 - Mar 4 with 319 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Israel easing restrictions but only if you have a vaccination passport on 16:39 - Feb 21 by StokieBlue |
They are do different points.
One is about opening up the country given the current status quo and one is about the messaging around scientific information and why it's not getting across to some people. I suspect it's because a lot of people rely far too heavily on social media to get their information but I have no studies to prove that hypothesis.
I'm not really sure if I am for or against something like a green passport for C19 vaccinations, I think you're going to struggle to see full cinemas, gigs or anything else indoors in the short-to-medium term without something like that though. The government here and elsewhere are unlikely to take the risk.
My general point around ID's in response to DBS was that there isn't much evidence that having them in this country will lead to the authoritarian regime he fears. I know you've cited some examples in your previous post but that's not what I said: I said they wouldn't be compulsory to carry but might be needed for some things (like a full cinema for instance). I do understand your points around the government (although the days of this one are hopefully finite) and the police (and perhaps the time is not yet to be fair) but sooner or later we need to stop using historical actions as a justification to not do something looking forward.
So in summary, I am not decided about it yet, understand the negative but believe the government are unlikely to allow some indoor things without some verification of vaccination in the medium term.
SB [Post edited 21 Feb 2021 16:40]
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"My general point around ID's in response to DBS was that there isn't much evidence that having them in this country will lead to the authoritarian regime he fears."
....something about carts and horses or is it chickens and eggs! [Post edited 4 Mar 2021 14:16]
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