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This is worth reading on the concerns various regulators have with AZ vaccine 10:21 - Mar 18 with 1126 viewsSteve_M

Still likely that the benefits of vaccination exceed the risk of clots but this does appear a fair reason for concern.

Curious though that the data in the UK does not seem to show the same but maybe cases are so rare that the statistical signal is limited.

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/03/it-s-very-special-picture-why-vaccine-sa


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This is worth reading on the concerns various regulators have with AZ vaccine on 10:37 - Mar 18 with 1090 viewsFreddies_Ears

The odd thing is, UK has used AZ more than other European countries, but hasn't reported any such issues with fatal side-effects. Something isn't adding up.
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This is worth reading on the concerns various regulators have with AZ vaccine on 10:44 - Mar 18 with 1061 viewsStokieBlue

Thanks Steve.

There are a lot of unknowns at the moment, one being that we have mainly vaccinated older people and these cases are in younger people.

However if this is right then it's hard to see how there can ever be a C19 vaccine without some tiny amount of risk (and as the article says it's extremely small compared to actually having C19):

"In a paper published in October in Blood Brodsky and colleagues showed that the spike protein of SARS-CoV-2, by binding to the inner surface of blood vessels, can activate the complement system. In some people that leads to the cells lining the vessel being attacked, which in turn can lead to blood clotting and ultimately cause severe disease. Brodsky says he has had several patients with a complement disorder called paroxysmal nocturnal hemoglobinuria whose symptoms worsened after receiving a COVID-19 vaccine. “It doesn’t prove anything, but there is a lot of smoke here.”

The whole idea behind the vaccines is to get the body to produce spike proteins so it can recognise and fight off C19. If there is a tiny chance that those spike proteins cause clotting (as they sometimes do with natural C19 infection) then I don't really see a way around that and it would explain why the same issue is seen with Pfizer and Moderna. It's an unfortunate by-product of the way the spike proteins behave in a tiny number of individuals - it's possible that these same individuals would have been at higher risk of C19 itself due to this.

SB
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This is worth reading on the concerns various regulators have with AZ vaccine on 11:03 - Mar 18 with 1030 viewsBanksterDebtSlave

This is worth reading on the concerns various regulators have with AZ vaccine on 10:44 - Mar 18 by StokieBlue

Thanks Steve.

There are a lot of unknowns at the moment, one being that we have mainly vaccinated older people and these cases are in younger people.

However if this is right then it's hard to see how there can ever be a C19 vaccine without some tiny amount of risk (and as the article says it's extremely small compared to actually having C19):

"In a paper published in October in Blood Brodsky and colleagues showed that the spike protein of SARS-CoV-2, by binding to the inner surface of blood vessels, can activate the complement system. In some people that leads to the cells lining the vessel being attacked, which in turn can lead to blood clotting and ultimately cause severe disease. Brodsky says he has had several patients with a complement disorder called paroxysmal nocturnal hemoglobinuria whose symptoms worsened after receiving a COVID-19 vaccine. “It doesn’t prove anything, but there is a lot of smoke here.”

The whole idea behind the vaccines is to get the body to produce spike proteins so it can recognise and fight off C19. If there is a tiny chance that those spike proteins cause clotting (as they sometimes do with natural C19 infection) then I don't really see a way around that and it would explain why the same issue is seen with Pfizer and Moderna. It's an unfortunate by-product of the way the spike proteins behave in a tiny number of individuals - it's possible that these same individuals would have been at higher risk of C19 itself due to this.

SB


"....it's possible that these same individuals would have been at higher risk of C19 itself due to this."

I didn't think you were one for unsubstantiated conjecture Stokie.

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This is worth reading on the concerns various regulators have with AZ vaccine on 11:25 - Mar 18 with 980 viewsStokieBlue

This is worth reading on the concerns various regulators have with AZ vaccine on 11:03 - Mar 18 by BanksterDebtSlave

"....it's possible that these same individuals would have been at higher risk of C19 itself due to this."

I didn't think you were one for unsubstantiated conjecture Stokie.


I've not drawn a firm conclusion, it's called a hypothesis based on what I have written above it.

I am happen to explain my post more clearly if it's confusing and not clear.

SB
[Post edited 18 Mar 2021 11:29]
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This is worth reading on the concerns various regulators have with AZ vaccine on 12:02 - Mar 18 with 930 viewsGuthrum

This is worth reading on the concerns various regulators have with AZ vaccine on 10:37 - Mar 18 by Freddies_Ears

The odd thing is, UK has used AZ more than other European countries, but hasn't reported any such issues with fatal side-effects. Something isn't adding up.


I believe it's two cases in the UK, as against a few dozen dozen in Europe (Scandinavia, Germany and Austria). Which would suggest that either there is some underlying factor (e.g. the cohorts who are being vaccinated) or some difference in the makeup/manufacture of the vaccine itself between our supply and theirs. It may, indeed, relate to just a single batch.

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This is worth reading on the concerns various regulators have with AZ vaccine on 12:12 - Mar 18 with 911 viewsBanksterDebtSlave

This is worth reading on the concerns various regulators have with AZ vaccine on 11:25 - Mar 18 by StokieBlue

I've not drawn a firm conclusion, it's called a hypothesis based on what I have written above it.

I am happen to explain my post more clearly if it's confusing and not clear.

SB
[Post edited 18 Mar 2021 11:29]


No problem Stokie, you know I am one for an interesting hypothesis.

"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
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This is worth reading on the concerns various regulators have with AZ vaccine on 12:36 - Mar 18 with 879 viewsRyorry

This is worth reading on the concerns various regulators have with AZ vaccine on 12:12 - Mar 18 by BanksterDebtSlave

No problem Stokie, you know I am one for an interesting hypothesis.


Do you use any medications at all? There are always risks, eg -

https://www.nhsinform.scot/tests-and-treatments/medicines-and-medical-aids/types

"Side effects of aspirin
Like all medications, there's a risk of side effects from aspirin.

The most common side effects are:

indigestion and stomach aches — taking your medicine with food may help reduce this risk
bleeding or bruising more easily than normal

Uncommon and rare side effects include:

hives — a raised, itchy rash
tinnitus — hearing sounds that come from inside your body
breathing difficulties or an asthma attack
an allergic reaction — this can cause breathing problems, swelling of the mouth, lips or throat, and a sudden rash
bleeding in the stomach — this can cause dark, tar-like stools or vomiting blood
bleeding in the brain — this can cause a sudden, severe headache, vision problems and stroke symptoms, such as slurred speech and weakness on one side of the body "

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This is worth reading on the concerns various regulators have with AZ vaccine on 12:40 - Mar 18 with 871 viewsStokieBlue

This is worth reading on the concerns various regulators have with AZ vaccine on 12:12 - Mar 18 by BanksterDebtSlave

No problem Stokie, you know I am one for an interesting hypothesis.


You get the point though right?

Research has shown that in some people, if they have C19 they are more likely to get blood clotting:

"In a paper published in October in Blood Brodsky and colleagues showed that the spike protein of SARS-CoV-2, by binding to the inner surface of blood vessels, can activate the complement system. In some people that leads to the cells lining the vessel being attacked, which in turn can lead to blood clotting and ultimately cause severe disease"

The vaccines deliberately get the body to create spike proteins so if you had this miniscule existing risk then the vaccines in theory could trigger than risk in a similar way to having C19. Given this it's not a huge leap to suggest that those people would have had the same small chance of blood clots from getting C19 (well it would likely be a bigger chance as more spike proteins would likely have been present in a natural infection).

It also explains why Pfizer and Moderna have also seem clotting issues as they also get the body to produce the spike protein and thus would have the same issues highlighted above.

So it's likely to be a general vaccine issue in a very tiny number of cases rather than something specific to AZ from what we know at the moment. That could obviously change with more data though.

SB
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This is worth reading on the concerns various regulators have with AZ vaccine on 12:46 - Mar 18 with 853 viewsBanksterDebtSlave

This is worth reading on the concerns various regulators have with AZ vaccine on 12:40 - Mar 18 by StokieBlue

You get the point though right?

Research has shown that in some people, if they have C19 they are more likely to get blood clotting:

"In a paper published in October in Blood Brodsky and colleagues showed that the spike protein of SARS-CoV-2, by binding to the inner surface of blood vessels, can activate the complement system. In some people that leads to the cells lining the vessel being attacked, which in turn can lead to blood clotting and ultimately cause severe disease"

The vaccines deliberately get the body to create spike proteins so if you had this miniscule existing risk then the vaccines in theory could trigger than risk in a similar way to having C19. Given this it's not a huge leap to suggest that those people would have had the same small chance of blood clots from getting C19 (well it would likely be a bigger chance as more spike proteins would likely have been present in a natural infection).

It also explains why Pfizer and Moderna have also seem clotting issues as they also get the body to produce the spike protein and thus would have the same issues highlighted above.

So it's likely to be a general vaccine issue in a very tiny number of cases rather than something specific to AZ from what we know at the moment. That could obviously change with more data though.

SB


Yes I got the point.

"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
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This is worth reading on the concerns various regulators have with AZ vaccine on 12:48 - Mar 18 with 848 viewsStokieBlue

This is worth reading on the concerns various regulators have with AZ vaccine on 12:46 - Mar 18 by BanksterDebtSlave

Yes I got the point.


Not sure why the flippant responses then if you got the point?

SB
[Post edited 18 Mar 2021 12:48]
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This is worth reading on the concerns various regulators have with AZ vaccine on 12:50 - Mar 18 with 841 viewsBanksterDebtSlave

This is worth reading on the concerns various regulators have with AZ vaccine on 12:48 - Mar 18 by StokieBlue

Not sure why the flippant responses then if you got the point?

SB
[Post edited 18 Mar 2021 12:48]


I guess it depends who is doing the hypothesising!

"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
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This is worth reading on the concerns various regulators have with AZ vaccine on 12:56 - Mar 18 with 828 viewsStokieBlue

This is worth reading on the concerns various regulators have with AZ vaccine on 12:50 - Mar 18 by BanksterDebtSlave

I guess it depends who is doing the hypothesising!


No.

It depends whether it's done with evidence.

SB
[Post edited 18 Mar 2021 12:58]
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