| Why are we still backing this? 09:55 - Nov 1 with 3899 views | Darth_Koont |
And how is this leading towards peace and stability for both Israeli and Palestinian civilians, not to mention the wider region?
Considering how we and the US misread Afghanistan and Iraq I think we need to be much more solid on what the actual plan is. Especially as it’s looking like more and more of the same self-interest and callous indifference to brown people.
https://www.ochaopt.org/content/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-reported-impac |  |
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| Why are we still backing this? on 11:43 - Nov 1 with 1179 views | Radlett_blue |
| Why are we still backing this? on 11:40 - Nov 1 by lowhouseblue |
but by implication you're labelling one group as 'brown' and one group as 'not brown'. the geographic boundaries don't run on those lines. many of those massacred in the pogrom of 7th october would also meet your criteria. |
Indeed, these things are never "black and white". An Arab former work colleague of mine used to love pointing out the many similarities between the Israelis and the Arabs. |  |
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| That’s what I suspected. (n/t) on 11:58 - Nov 1 with 1131 views | Bloots |
| Start it then…. on 11:43 - Nov 1 by Darth_Koont |
Sounds like a plan.
For now, I’m more interested in discussing the need for a ceasefire to end war crimes. |
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| "Great to see you back on here mate, I was considering deactivating my account if you hadn’t returned" - TWTD User (Aug 2025) |
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| Why are we still backing this? on 11:58 - Nov 1 with 1138 views | Darth_Koont |
| Why are we still backing this? on 11:40 - Nov 1 by lowhouseblue |
but by implication you're labelling one group as 'brown' and one group as 'not brown'. the geographic boundaries don't run on those lines. many of those massacred in the pogrom of 7th october would also meet your criteria. |
I’m putting it in the context of the Middle East and our mistakes there. Of course, a great many Israelis aren’t Europeans but most are and they are treated as Western. Even though an ethnocracy that colonises and oppresses another people is nothing we should be normalising — even if that’s what we in the West have done in the past and still unfortunately err towards to often.
But if how we consciously or subconsciously lean towards colonists on our own flawed terms is the sticking point, then we can base it in purely human terms of all lives being equal including their inalienable rights to a home, peace and a future. I think “othering” is the best explanation for why we clearly don’t do that, but whatever the reason it needs to stop. | |
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| Why are we still backing this? on 12:14 - Nov 1 with 1071 views | lowhouseblue |
| Why are we still backing this? on 11:58 - Nov 1 by Darth_Koont |
I’m putting it in the context of the Middle East and our mistakes there. Of course, a great many Israelis aren’t Europeans but most are and they are treated as Western. Even though an ethnocracy that colonises and oppresses another people is nothing we should be normalising — even if that’s what we in the West have done in the past and still unfortunately err towards to often.
But if how we consciously or subconsciously lean towards colonists on our own flawed terms is the sticking point, then we can base it in purely human terms of all lives being equal including their inalienable rights to a home, peace and a future. I think “othering” is the best explanation for why we clearly don’t do that, but whatever the reason it needs to stop. |
"most are [europeans] and they are treated as Western". well that's not really true. a little less than half of all israeli jews are descended from jews who made aliyah from europe, others are descended from jews who made aliyah from arab countries, iran, turkey, and central asia, or ethiopian and indian jews. 26.5% of the israeli population aren't jews - but are arabs and other smaller ethnic groups. so most israelis being european is a myth - it's more like 35%. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Why are we still backing this? on 12:38 - Nov 1 with 979 views | Darth_Koont |
| Why are we still backing this? on 12:14 - Nov 1 by lowhouseblue |
"most are [europeans] and they are treated as Western". well that's not really true. a little less than half of all israeli jews are descended from jews who made aliyah from europe, others are descended from jews who made aliyah from arab countries, iran, turkey, and central asia, or ethiopian and indian jews. 26.5% of the israeli population aren't jews - but are arabs and other smaller ethnic groups. so most israelis being european is a myth - it's more like 35%. |
The Arab-Israeli citizens don’t have the same rights or a genuine voice so not sure why you are including those. Nor is there the right of return for them or anyone else non-Jewish.
If we see the de facto state and its citizens there is a significant European and/or non-indigenous majority there. And it’s clearly part of how Israel presents itself as a Western ally and in need of its support against what it terms as the barbarian forces in and around the region.
I agree that it’s not as simplistic as that but that’s the perception that’s been encouraged.
And by the way, I’m not for one minute saying that people in Israel don’t have a right to live there. I respect their rights as civilians who have made this their home, but we can’t accept the dismissal of other people’s rights to not be persecuted, thrown off their land and out of their homes at the same time. | |
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| Why are we still backing this? on 12:48 - Nov 1 with 919 views | lowhouseblue |
| Why are we still backing this? on 12:38 - Nov 1 by Darth_Koont |
The Arab-Israeli citizens don’t have the same rights or a genuine voice so not sure why you are including those. Nor is there the right of return for them or anyone else non-Jewish.
If we see the de facto state and its citizens there is a significant European and/or non-indigenous majority there. And it’s clearly part of how Israel presents itself as a Western ally and in need of its support against what it terms as the barbarian forces in and around the region.
I agree that it’s not as simplistic as that but that’s the perception that’s been encouraged.
And by the way, I’m not for one minute saying that people in Israel don’t have a right to live there. I respect their rights as civilians who have made this their home, but we can’t accept the dismissal of other people’s rights to not be persecuted, thrown off their land and out of their homes at the same time. |
"The Arab-Israeli citizens don’t have the same rights"
in what way legally? this isn't to dispute the extent of socio-economic inequality or the way in which that limits democratic participation, but are their legal rights as citizens different from those of israeli jewish citizens? | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Why are we still backing this? on 13:06 - Nov 1 with 867 views | Darth_Koont |
| Why are we still backing this? on 12:48 - Nov 1 by lowhouseblue |
"The Arab-Israeli citizens don’t have the same rights"
in what way legally? this isn't to dispute the extent of socio-economic inequality or the way in which that limits democratic participation, but are their legal rights as citizens different from those of israeli jewish citizens? |
They have the same civilian rights. But not as an ethnic group nor politically given their lack of involvement in any coalition building.
They’re a people without any real say while their neighbours of the same community in the West Bank and Gaza are being occupied and oppressed. | |
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| Why are we still backing this? on 13:11 - Nov 1 with 843 views | lowhouseblue |
| Why are we still backing this? on 13:06 - Nov 1 by Darth_Koont |
They have the same civilian rights. But not as an ethnic group nor politically given their lack of involvement in any coalition building.
They’re a people without any real say while their neighbours of the same community in the West Bank and Gaza are being occupied and oppressed. |
so in fact nothing to justify you excluding them from the figures about the ethnicity of the israeli citizenship. full citizens with the same legal rights.
I have to say on this thread you have been relying more than usual on myths and misrepresentations to justify your position. israel as a mostly white european nation with it's arab citizens dismissed as non-existant. i'm certain gb is entirely right about why you misrepresent it in that way - so I will leave you to it. [Post edited 1 Nov 2023 13:13]
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| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Why are we still backing this? on 13:11 - Nov 1 with 843 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Why are we still backing this? on 12:48 - Nov 1 by lowhouseblue |
"The Arab-Israeli citizens don’t have the same rights"
in what way legally? this isn't to dispute the extent of socio-economic inequality or the way in which that limits democratic participation, but are their legal rights as citizens different from those of israeli jewish citizens? |
Their rights are certainly better than those of LGBT in Gaza. Let’s at least be objective here.
Otherwise, I agree a ceasefire is absolutely needed and really is in Israel’s hands - negotiations on the release of hostages will obviously need to follow |  | | |
| Why are we still backing this? on 13:18 - Nov 1 with 816 views | Darth_Koont |
| Why are we still backing this? on 13:11 - Nov 1 by lowhouseblue |
so in fact nothing to justify you excluding them from the figures about the ethnicity of the israeli citizenship. full citizens with the same legal rights.
I have to say on this thread you have been relying more than usual on myths and misrepresentations to justify your position. israel as a mostly white european nation with it's arab citizens dismissed as non-existant. i'm certain gb is entirely right about why you misrepresent it in that way - so I will leave you to it. [Post edited 1 Nov 2023 13:13]
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I think your “certainty” says much more about you and your weaponised view of politics and the wider world. | |
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| Why are we still backing this? on 13:59 - Nov 1 with 736 views | PassionNotAnger |
| Why are we still backing this? on 10:31 - Nov 1 by Darth_Koont |
There needs to be de-escalation starting with a ceasefire. As horrific as the Hamas attacks were the response against the civilian population is disproportionate, criminal, traumatic and de-stabilising. Not to mention that the response is spilling over into the West Bank and the wider region.
Ultimately the plan has to recognize the rights of both sets of civilians. Currently, we are taking the side of the racist extremists in the Israeli government who have ethnic cleansing and genocide on the agenda under the more palatable “right to self-defence” banner. |
Thank you for your answer.
So a ceasefire (and on a purely humanitarian basis that is something I should suspect most people could understand if not support)
But I am curious as to what you might think is an acceptable response from Israel to what Hamas did recently. If they had a ceasefire now would you think they could do as an alternative? I genuinely don’t know what is right or wrong by the way but, I get the sense that most people calling for a ceasefire see that as a pathway to peace presumably only if Israel don’t take further military action. I don’t think that’s likely or going to be palatable to those outraged by the butchery of Hamas is it? (And effectively it would somewhat legitimize their tactics to get at least part of their ideological goals)
I may well be missing something key in my oversimplification! | | | |
| Why are we still backing this? on 14:48 - Nov 1 with 691 views | ChampionsofInnsbruck |
| Why are we still backing this? on 10:19 - Nov 1 by PassionNotAnger |
What do you think the plan should be?
What do you think would be an appropriate response from Israel to the Hamas attack in Oct?
I don’t have any answers to such a complex situation, I think I’m barely capable of identifying the right questions to ask but for people to discuss (or debate) things it would perhaps be helpful for those who feel better qualified or with more knowledge to offer their views on solutions or resolutions. |
I think we should start by not arming or investing in either side of the conflict. As much as I despise Hamas, Israel is as heavy handed as Putin is and we are still open with them, yet Russia is under blockade, it's a double standard. Of course Israel has a right to protect it's people from terror, but the innocent Arabs also have a right not to be annihilated indiscriminately due to actions of terrorists. Cut them off like Russia, Iran and so on and see the attitude change. |  | | |
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