| Where have these Conservatives been the past few years? 13:49 - Feb 26 with 4997 views | DanTheMan |
https://news.sky.com/story/tory-one-nation-group-urges-jeremy-hunt-to-cut-taxes-
A bunch of fairly sensible policies on the face of it, even if I don't agree with all of them.
Of particular interest though for me...
and has called for income to be taxed at the same rate, regardless of the source - whether that be earnings, benefits, or dividends.
Think this is the first time I've heard MPs talk about this. Raised it a few times on here that I'm surprised we've still not done this. |  |
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| Where have these Conservatives been the past few years? on 03:39 - Feb 27 with 1043 views | Zapers |
| Where have these Conservatives been the past few years? on 18:22 - Feb 26 by BlueBadger |
Yes, but what was the 'very good reason' beyond feeble macho posturing? [Post edited 26 Feb 2024 18:22]
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"Feeble macho posturing" where on earth did you dream that one up!
It's really quite simple badger, when there is not enough government income to support the required spend, cuts have to be made.
It's called budgeting.
If your answer is the usual tax the rich, the rich don't stay. They move to countries or principalities that support lower income taxes. Many move to places like Monaco where there is zero income tax. The same applies to large corporations.
I'm afraid the only ideology takes place with people who think spend, spend, spend, tax, tax, tax is the answer. |  | | |
| Where have these Conservatives been the past few years? on 04:10 - Feb 27 with 1036 views | Zapers |
| Where have these Conservatives been the past few years? on 19:33 - Feb 26 by GlasgowBlue |
The deficit as a percentage of GDP in 2010 was 7.3%. At the end of World War 2 it was just 3%.
The NHS was set up in 1948. After 8 years of austerity, 1947 being the last, Attlee's government managed to run a surplus of 6% by 1950. Economic conditions in 1948 were very good. Low unemployment. Low interest rates.
It's worth noting that we currently spend 12% of GDP on health. In 1948 it was 2%. So basically, you are comparing apples with oranges.
Telling people you are going to slash public service spending is not playing to the electorate. Brown went ballistic at Darling for his honesty. The reason all three parties advocated austerity in 2010 was because the economy was fcuked.
The issue wasn't' austerity. It was that Osborne was rubbish at it. Public spending actually went up year on year but the cuts that were made wnet on far too long. He should have cut fast and hard for one year. Denis Healey, the Labour Chancellor in 1976, cut more in one year than Osborne did in six. Because he did so he left a decent legacy for Thatcher to build on. |
Appreciated GB. As countries battle for wealthy individuals i can only think it will become harder for governments to balance the books.
In Thailand with the visa we have, as long as we do not work in Thailand, we do not pay any taxes.
Now I'm not suggesting we are wealthy, far from it, however there are many wealthy people here.
Government here realises that wealthy people spend money, as a result, the economy improves.
Bangkok has changed dramatically over the last few years. Huge shopping malls to rival anything the West has to offer. All the major brand names, and all the high end brands.
Hospitals to rival anything the West can offer.
People spending money, it's simple really. Taxing people out of existence doesn't work any more. | | | |
| Where have these Conservatives been the past few years? on 08:19 - Feb 27 with 942 views | DanTheMan |
| Where have these Conservatives been the past few years? on 04:10 - Feb 27 by Zapers |
Appreciated GB. As countries battle for wealthy individuals i can only think it will become harder for governments to balance the books.
In Thailand with the visa we have, as long as we do not work in Thailand, we do not pay any taxes.
Now I'm not suggesting we are wealthy, far from it, however there are many wealthy people here.
Government here realises that wealthy people spend money, as a result, the economy improves.
Bangkok has changed dramatically over the last few years. Huge shopping malls to rival anything the West has to offer. All the major brand names, and all the high end brands.
Hospitals to rival anything the West can offer.
People spending money, it's simple really. Taxing people out of existence doesn't work any more. |
"Government here realises that wealthy people spend money, as a result, the economy improves."
This is a little naive or simplistic. What they are spending their money on matters. If they are buying produced things then yes, that helps. It also helps if they are investing in things in the country they reside in. If it were truly this simple, every single nation would just remove or massively lower taxes and be done with it. This has been tried in Kansas and was fairly disastrous.
I also think it's simplistic as well to say all rich people would just immediately jump countries if taxes were raised. Some might, sure, but not all. If they were going to, they'd have already left. As you say, Monaco has a lower rate of tax already. So why haven't they already moved? They always threaten this when countries say they'll raise taxes but they don't follow through.
If those wealthy people (and by wealthy I'm talking in the millions, not someone working on 100k) tend to spend their money on assets, things like houses which don't actually help the economy. Or they squirrel it away in one of the many ways you can hide it.
I'd also say that your other point (income vs. spending at a macro level) is fairly simplistic. Countries are not households, the budgeting does not work the same way. As DJR mentioned, the time to spend would have been after the original financial crash when interest rates were historically low so that we could borrow at a very low rate and actually invest in the country, so we could all benefit. Instead, we cut (we as GB points out was the dominant position at the time) and now we are in a place where there is nothing more to cut and interest rates are high so investing is now very difficult.
And where do we think all that money we spent during Covid went? We certainly spent a lot, but that money doesn't just disappear. And there really is only one small group that came out of Covid richer than they went in. [Post edited 27 Feb 2024 8:23]
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| Where have these Conservatives been the past few years? on 08:42 - Feb 27 with 922 views | DJR |
For those on here still sticking up for austerity, this from a Nobel Prize winning economist is worth a read, and it also includes criticism of Labour for not challenging it.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/ng-interactive/2015/apr/29/the-austerity-de
Here are some illuminating passages from the article.
"Part of the answer is that politicians were catering to a public that doesn’t understand the rationale for deficit spending, that tends to think of the government budget via analogies with family finances. When John Boehner, the Republican leader, opposed US stimulus plans on the grounds that “American families are tightening their belt, but they don’t see government tightening its belt,” economists cringed at the stupidity. But within a few months the very same line was showing up in Barack Obama’s speeches, because his speechwriters found that it resonated with audiences. Similarly, the Labour party felt it necessary to dedicate the very first page of its 2015 general election manifesto to a “Budget Responsibility Lock”, promising to “cut the deficit every year”.
Beyond these economic misconceptions, there were political reasons why many influential players opposed fiscal stimulus even in the face of a deeply depressed economy. Conservatives like to use the alleged dangers of debt and deficits as clubs with which to beat the welfare state and justify cuts in benefits; suggestions that higher spending might actually be beneficial are definitely not welcome. Meanwhile, centrist politicians and pundits often try to demonstrate how serious and statesmanlike they are by calling for hard choices and sacrifice (by other people). Even Barack Obama’s first inaugural address, given in the face of a plunging economy, largely consisted of hard-choices boilerplate. As a result, centrists were almost as uncomfortable with the notion of fiscal stimulus as the hard right.
I’ve already suggested one answer: scare talk about debt and deficits is often used as a cover for a very different agenda, namely an attempt to reduce the overall size of government and especially spending on social insurance. This has been transparently obvious in the United States, where many supposed deficit-reduction plans just happen to include sharp cuts in tax rates on corporations and the wealthy even as they take away healthcare and nutritional aid for the poor. But it’s also a fairly obvious motivation in the UK, if not so crudely expressed. The “primary purpose” of austerity, the Telegraph admitted in 2013, “is to shrink the size of government spending” – or, as Cameron put it in a speech later that year, to make the state “leaner ... not just now, but permanently”.
As it is. my fear is that Labour by sticking to the current Tory fiscal rules will be making the same mistake again if it wins power. [Post edited 27 Feb 2024 9:32]
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| Where have these Conservatives been the past few years? on 08:51 - Feb 27 with 897 views | Zapers |
| Where have these Conservatives been the past few years? on 08:19 - Feb 27 by DanTheMan |
"Government here realises that wealthy people spend money, as a result, the economy improves."
This is a little naive or simplistic. What they are spending their money on matters. If they are buying produced things then yes, that helps. It also helps if they are investing in things in the country they reside in. If it were truly this simple, every single nation would just remove or massively lower taxes and be done with it. This has been tried in Kansas and was fairly disastrous.
I also think it's simplistic as well to say all rich people would just immediately jump countries if taxes were raised. Some might, sure, but not all. If they were going to, they'd have already left. As you say, Monaco has a lower rate of tax already. So why haven't they already moved? They always threaten this when countries say they'll raise taxes but they don't follow through.
If those wealthy people (and by wealthy I'm talking in the millions, not someone working on 100k) tend to spend their money on assets, things like houses which don't actually help the economy. Or they squirrel it away in one of the many ways you can hide it.
I'd also say that your other point (income vs. spending at a macro level) is fairly simplistic. Countries are not households, the budgeting does not work the same way. As DJR mentioned, the time to spend would have been after the original financial crash when interest rates were historically low so that we could borrow at a very low rate and actually invest in the country, so we could all benefit. Instead, we cut (we as GB points out was the dominant position at the time) and now we are in a place where there is nothing more to cut and interest rates are high so investing is now very difficult.
And where do we think all that money we spent during Covid went? We certainly spent a lot, but that money doesn't just disappear. And there really is only one small group that came out of Covid richer than they went in. [Post edited 27 Feb 2024 8:23]
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Yes, I'm talking about emerging markets. You need to remember that many Asian countries have luxury tax, so yes, it does contribute to the economy.
Who do you think supports the many private hospitals and clinics. I can assure you it's not your average Thai national.
You cannot ignore how much the luxury market contributes to the economy, tourism is also involved when it comes to contributing.
We will have to agree to disagree regarding your other points. People nowadays are more inclined to work remotely. You might not like it, but more and more UK citizens are moving to places like Monaco. It's nonsense to say they would have already left, If labour win the next election, and whoever is Prime minister at the time raises stealth taxes on the wealthy, then is a time to judge,
Yes budgeting is simple. you either reduce taxes and increase spending, and attract more tax payers. Or you increase taxes, lose wealth, and at the same time decrease spending. | | | |
| Where have these Conservatives been the past few years? on 10:14 - Feb 27 with 828 views | DJR |
| Where have these Conservatives been the past few years? on 04:10 - Feb 27 by Zapers |
Appreciated GB. As countries battle for wealthy individuals i can only think it will become harder for governments to balance the books.
In Thailand with the visa we have, as long as we do not work in Thailand, we do not pay any taxes.
Now I'm not suggesting we are wealthy, far from it, however there are many wealthy people here.
Government here realises that wealthy people spend money, as a result, the economy improves.
Bangkok has changed dramatically over the last few years. Huge shopping malls to rival anything the West has to offer. All the major brand names, and all the high end brands.
Hospitals to rival anything the West can offer.
People spending money, it's simple really. Taxing people out of existence doesn't work any more. |
The following executive summary from a World Bank report in November suggests things in Thailand are not as rosy as you suggest, but with a friend whose niece lives there I realise it is great for wealthy Westerners.
https://documents1.worldbank.org/curated/en/099112823133018003/P17759905901d70ed
During the past two decades, Thailand has made progress towards reducing its significant levels of inequality. In the early 2000s, the country had the highest level of income-based inequality in the East Asia and Pacific (EAP) region, with an estimated income Gini coefficient of 52.4 percent, and the region’s second-highest level of consumption-based inequality, with a consumption Gini coefficient of 42.8 percent.
Inequality has declined significantly since then, though progress has slowed since 2015.
Yet inequality remains high. In 2021, with an income Gini coefficient of 43.3 percent, Thailand still had the highest level of income-based inequality in EAP, and it ranked as the 13th most unequal of the 63 countries for which income Gini coefficients are available. At its current rate, Thailand’s income Gini coefficient is in line with the median level (43.5 percent) of upper-middle income countries (UMICs) but well above the median (31.6 percent) of high-income countries (HICs). In terms of consumption inequality, Thailand has performed better. With a consumption Gini coefficient of 35 percent, it ranked 45th out of 72 countries for which consumption Gini coefficients are available, though it continues to rank higher on this measure than half of the countries in EAP.
Inequality is particularly high when considering the concentration of income and wealth in the wealthiest ten percent of households. In 2021, the share of net personal income earned by the richest 10 percent in Thailand reached 48.8 percent, the highest among countries with available data. When measured in terms of net personal wealth, this figure soars to 74.2 percent, reflecting high concentration of wealth among the few at the top. Thus, a perception of low mobility prevails, coupled with the perception that inequality is unfair, and meritocracy is low. [Post edited 27 Feb 2024 10:18]
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| Where have these Conservatives been the past few years? on 10:23 - Feb 27 with 809 views | leitrimblue |
| Where have these Conservatives been the past few years? on 04:10 - Feb 27 by Zapers |
Appreciated GB. As countries battle for wealthy individuals i can only think it will become harder for governments to balance the books.
In Thailand with the visa we have, as long as we do not work in Thailand, we do not pay any taxes.
Now I'm not suggesting we are wealthy, far from it, however there are many wealthy people here.
Government here realises that wealthy people spend money, as a result, the economy improves.
Bangkok has changed dramatically over the last few years. Huge shopping malls to rival anything the West has to offer. All the major brand names, and all the high end brands.
Hospitals to rival anything the West can offer.
People spending money, it's simple really. Taxing people out of existence doesn't work any more. |
A excellent pro immigration post Zapers. Good to see your up for worldwide free movement. |  | | |
| Where have these Conservatives been the past few years? on 10:37 - Feb 27 with 777 views | Zapers |
| Where have these Conservatives been the past few years? on 10:23 - Feb 27 by leitrimblue |
A excellent pro immigration post Zapers. Good to see your up for worldwide free movement. |
Yes, I’m all for a Singapore on Thames future Britain. | | | |
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| Where have these Conservatives been the past few years? on 10:41 - Feb 27 with 768 views | chrice |
From the article:
"Damian Green, chair of the One Nation caucus of Tory MPs, said "the best way" to grow the economy was by "cutting taxes and giving people the opportunity to buy their own homes and invest in their future"."
The obsession that growing the economy is the only marker of success as a country is the fundamental issue here.
The true markers of success should be life expectancy because of good healthcare, literacy levels cause of good schools, thriving culture because of investment in the arts, low crime rates because of investment in communities and support systems for the vulnerable etc etc.
You might just find that all those things also lead to a balanced and thriving economy but for the benefit of more than just the top 1%, which is probably why it hasn't been done thus far. | | | |
| Where have these Conservatives been the past few years? on 10:44 - Feb 27 with 759 views | leitrimblue |
| Where have these Conservatives been the past few years? on 10:37 - Feb 27 by Zapers |
Yes, I’m all for a Singapore on Thames future Britain. |
Thought you might been offering to fund a few speed boats across the Channel. At least something to help immigrants reach the UK easier  | | | |
| Where have these Conservatives been the past few years? on 10:55 - Feb 27 with 741 views | Zapers |
| Where have these Conservatives been the past few years? on 10:44 - Feb 27 by leitrimblue |
Thought you might been offering to fund a few speed boats across the Channel. At least something to help immigrants reach the UK easier |
Why would I apply your twisted logic. | | | |
| Where have these Conservatives been the past few years? on 10:56 - Feb 27 with 736 views | leitrimblue |
| Where have these Conservatives been the past few years? on 10:55 - Feb 27 by Zapers |
Why would I apply your twisted logic. |
Because you are so pro immigration? | | | |
| Where have these Conservatives been the past few years? on 10:58 - Feb 27 with 731 views | Zapers |
| Where have these Conservatives been the past few years? on 10:56 - Feb 27 by leitrimblue |
Because you are so pro immigration? |
Is that a problem? | | | |
| Where have these Conservatives been the past few years? on 11:14 - Feb 27 with 713 views | leitrimblue |
| Where have these Conservatives been the past few years? on 10:58 - Feb 27 by Zapers |
Is that a problem? |
Not at all I'm glad to see it. Yer an inspiration to many | | | |
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