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Miriam Margolyes telling it like it is on 15:06 - Jul 13 by WeWereZombies
Of course I watched the video (and the one that was posted of her interview with David Baddiel) and I then formed an opinion of whether she was justified in calling on Jews around the World to denounce the unbalanced response. When I read your post that suggested that she went too far in doing that I was moved to defend the first video and explain why. I think she made very persuasive arguments in the Channel Four one too.
You do not agree with me and that is your prerogative.
Unfortunately you are wrong in the conclusions you have so far taken in this matter though.
[Post edited 13 Jul 2024 15:10]
When I read your post that suggested that she went too far in doing that I was moved to defend the first video and explain why.
Miriam Margolyes telling it like it is on 14:38 - Jul 13 by BanksterDebtSlave
Yeah tbf there is no way that those of the Jewish faith around the World have any sense of emotional connection to Israel and might therefore feel any sense of wanting to express their outrage at what that country's government and military are doing. And there is also no way that the notion of a dual loyalty trope has been created specifically to prevent people from suggesting there is any reason they should. Shame on Margoyles.
Miriam Margolyes telling it like it is on 15:17 - Jul 13 by WeWereZombies
Probably just as well.
'If all she had done was give an unfavourable opinion of the Israeli government', it is there in black and white, if all she had done...
I remain an enemy of those who try and close down debate.
Don’t you get the point that in her video, she could have said that it was the responsibility of all decent people everywhere in the world to speak out against Israel’s policies and appalling actions? Why address exclusively Jewish people, most of whom have no connection with Israel at all?
Miriam Margolyes telling it like it is on 16:37 - Jul 13 by Ryorry
Don’t you get the point that in her video, she could have said that it was the responsibility of all decent people everywhere in the world to speak out against Israel’s policies and appalling actions? Why address exclusively Jewish people, most of whom have no connection with Israel at all?
That seems to me to be an extraordinary thing to say.
Jewish people have the right of free speech as much as anyone else.
Or are you saying that there are certain things that Jewish people can't say, and if they do they should be condemned?
As it is, the video was originally shared by the Jewish Council of Australia, so I am not really sure what the issue is.
[Post edited 13 Jul 2024 17:31]
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Miriam Margolyes telling it like it is on 17:57 - Jul 13 with 1197 views
Miriam Margolyes telling it like it is on 16:37 - Jul 13 by Ryorry
Don’t you get the point that in her video, she could have said that it was the responsibility of all decent people everywhere in the world to speak out against Israel’s policies and appalling actions? Why address exclusively Jewish people, most of whom have no connection with Israel at all?
Who are all these notional Jewish people with no connection to Israel at all? Is that including emotional affinity?
"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
Miriam Margolyes telling it like it is on 18:19 - Jul 13 by Ryorry
"Jewish people have the right of free speech as much as anyone else."
"Of *course* they bloody well do, it's extraordinary of you to think I meant Jewish people should be excluded from responding.
"Or are you saying that there are certain things that Jewish people can't say, and if they do they should be condemned?"
*Of course* I'm bloody well not. Ffs.
It's the fact she's singled out Jewish people to be responsible for objecting that's the problem.
Can't believe the extraordinary misunderstandings going on in this thread.
I agree that there is a misunderstanding on this thread but in my view it relates to the (mis}application of threads of the IHRA definition of antisemitism to Jewish people which to my mind is a complete nonsense.
Those thread are
"Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations."
"Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel."
As it is, I still don't see what is wrong with a Jewish person making a plea to fellow Jews, and it certainly isn't antisemitic.
Finally, because I don't have an antisemitic bone in my body, I would never condemn any Jewish person (even Netanyahu) for whatever view they have in relation to the conflict in Israel and Palestine. But I am more than happy to be critical of the action of the Israeli state.
[Post edited 13 Jul 2024 22:01]
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Miriam Margolyes telling it like it is on 19:50 - Jul 13 with 1048 views
Miriam Margolyes telling it like it is on 19:29 - Jul 13 by DJR
I agree that there is a misunderstanding on this thread but in my view it relates to the (mis}application of threads of the IHRA definition of antisemitism to Jewish people which to my mind is a complete nonsense.
Those thread are
"Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations."
"Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel."
As it is, I still don't see what is wrong with a Jewish person making a plea to fellow Jews, and it certainly isn't antisemitic.
Finally, because I don't have an antisemitic bone in my body, I would never condemn any Jewish person (even Netanyahu) for whatever view they have in relation to the conflict in Israel and Palestine. But I am more than happy to be critical of the action of the Israeli state.
[Post edited 13 Jul 2024 22:01]
I was very simply referring to MM's vdeo, not using the IHRA definition. The only person to have (possibly) referred to that was Bankster, whose post around it was too convoluted with double negatives for me to understand what he meant.
I have no idea why you came to such a weird misunderstanding of my post as you did - not only was it insulting (do you really think I'm that kind of person?) but I very carefully & specifically chose the words "all decent people" and "everywhere in the world" precisely to be inclusive, not just outside Israel but within it too, as I assume the internet's working smoothly there most of the time.
Of course ""Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel." is antisemitic - I can't believe you're even arguing about that.
Miriam Margolyes telling it like it is on 19:50 - Jul 13 by Ryorry
I was very simply referring to MM's vdeo, not using the IHRA definition. The only person to have (possibly) referred to that was Bankster, whose post around it was too convoluted with double negatives for me to understand what he meant.
I have no idea why you came to such a weird misunderstanding of my post as you did - not only was it insulting (do you really think I'm that kind of person?) but I very carefully & specifically chose the words "all decent people" and "everywhere in the world" precisely to be inclusive, not just outside Israel but within it too, as I assume the internet's working smoothly there most of the time.
Of course ""Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel." is antisemitic - I can't believe you're even arguing about that.
[Post edited 13 Jul 2024 20:03]
I think we are coming at this matter from different angles but that is the beauty of life.
I certainly don't intend to fall out with you, so apologies that anything I have said has offended you.
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Miriam Margolyes telling it like it is on 21:55 - Jul 13 with 945 views
Miriam Margolyes telling it like it is on 16:37 - Jul 13 by Ryorry
Don’t you get the point that in her video, she could have said that it was the responsibility of all decent people everywhere in the world to speak out against Israel’s policies and appalling actions? Why address exclusively Jewish people, most of whom have no connection with Israel at all?
She exhorted Jews to make their feelings known to their rabbis and communities because she, perhaps mistakenly given Netanyahu's blindsiding of protests against his actions by Jews within Israel, probably feels that Jewish anger at the genocide will carry far more weight than the opinions of other people. It certainly does for me.
Miriam Margolyes telling it like it is on 19:29 - Jul 13 by DJR
I agree that there is a misunderstanding on this thread but in my view it relates to the (mis}application of threads of the IHRA definition of antisemitism to Jewish people which to my mind is a complete nonsense.
Those thread are
"Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations."
"Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel."
As it is, I still don't see what is wrong with a Jewish person making a plea to fellow Jews, and it certainly isn't antisemitic.
Finally, because I don't have an antisemitic bone in my body, I would never condemn any Jewish person (even Netanyahu) for whatever view they have in relation to the conflict in Israel and Palestine. But I am more than happy to be critical of the action of the Israeli state.
[Post edited 13 Jul 2024 22:01]
Edited out as replied to wrong post - correct one is below.
Miriam Margolyes telling it like it is on 21:42 - Jul 13 by DJR
I think we are coming at this matter from different angles but that is the beauty of life.
I certainly don't intend to fall out with you, so apologies that anything I have said has offended you.
In a post on p1, you said "I speak as someone who knows well both a Jewish person whose views on Israel accord with Miriam Margoyles and a Jewish person supportive of Israel.
I would not condemn either view because to do so would seem to me to be straying into antisemitism."
Yet there you were later, not only insulting me by making the assumption that I am someone who you think would actually exclude/shut down the comments/opinions of Jews, but also choosing to come up with an interpretation (& implied condemnation) of my comments that was the pole opposite of what I'd actually written, & which are still there in black & white. I'll say it again to be clear - I think MM should have addressed her comments to *all* decent people everywhere in the world, not just to Jewish people.
On a lighter note, if the communications of even (mostly) well-intentioned, peaceful people on a UK forum are getting so badly misinterpreted, no wonder the actual conflict in that region has been going on for the best part of 75 years!
Miriam Margolyes telling it like it is on 01:29 - Jul 14 by Ryorry
In a post on p1, you said "I speak as someone who knows well both a Jewish person whose views on Israel accord with Miriam Margoyles and a Jewish person supportive of Israel.
I would not condemn either view because to do so would seem to me to be straying into antisemitism."
Yet there you were later, not only insulting me by making the assumption that I am someone who you think would actually exclude/shut down the comments/opinions of Jews, but also choosing to come up with an interpretation (& implied condemnation) of my comments that was the pole opposite of what I'd actually written, & which are still there in black & white. I'll say it again to be clear - I think MM should have addressed her comments to *all* decent people everywhere in the world, not just to Jewish people.
On a lighter note, if the communications of even (mostly) well-intentioned, peaceful people on a UK forum are getting so badly misinterpreted, no wonder the actual conflict in that region has been going on for the best part of 75 years!
[Post edited 14 Jul 2024 1:34]
The idea that you would would actually exclude/shut down the comments/opinions of Jews is pretty ironic.
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