| ITFC as the lightning rod 07:38 - Mar 26 with 1099 views | jasondozzell |
It's strange how things work out.
Who would have thought that Town would become the focus of the country's battle for its soul?
Like most, I am deeply disappointed with the behaviour of the club. The issue isn't Farage appearing on a tour or even taking a photo with the ground - whether people like it or not he's a mainstream political figure - it's that we have courted it and facilitated the shooting of a promotional release for Reform. Then to compound things, the club has tried to backtrack with false claims before releasing a statement that is dripping with disdain for supporters with any intellect.
To be honest as soon as I saw the shirts had been moved, I kind of knew this was at best tacit approval from those up top, at worst coordinated help. I bet anyone else on the tour hasn't been moving shirts and hanging up their own ones.
Anyway,.what has followed has followed. And it's essentially a taking the temperature of the country.
I feel aggrieved. In my own opinion, Farage and Reform's upcoming domination of the council elections and 2029 is because of the failure of liberalism, the centre and most shockingly the Labour Party itself. The centrists and Labour are the real culprits.
But what we're also seeing is a realignment. Because as much as I'm opposed to Reform, there is a smidgen of truth, as uncomfortable as it may be, from those who say that Farage and his supporters are being scapegoated for having political views that they are entitled to. There's a particular outrage aimed at Reform that probably wouldn't be countenanced elsewhere. It's like watching Brexit again, where one group's disdain and repulsion for another only confirms what the other group thinks about liberal snobbishness and the divide in this country. You can see it play out on here everyday.
Reform polling around 30% means significant support. Dismissing every one of those voters as racist or idiotic is very dangerous.
What needs to happen is understanding. A political system has failed its people for decades. Even more significantly there has been a huge cultural change and there are key shifting class dynamics. The petit bourgeoisie, once a narrow class, have expanded, and their views and cultural outlook are the prevailing ones. In fact, they are challenging the liberal middle classes who for a long time have run the country. Those middle classes are losing that power,, it's draining away, and panic is setting in because they have lived in an elite bubble for a long period. Meanwhile the petit bourgeoise's key beliefs (family first, ''Im alright Jack'' 'Ive worked hard for this so i deserve it', .'anylone can make it if you want it and work hard enough' and suspicion of all that can be deemed 'woke' in part because of the way that the professional managerial class uses progressivism as a kind of individual badge of achievement to mark themselves out) is not only reflected in Reform's politics but in the social fabric of the country. Individualism and the decline of collectivism is at the heart of everything. We're all guilty of it.
The confluence of all these factors is about to unleash profound political change and upheaval. Much of which is not going to be very palatable. Who to blame? Thatcherism would be rhe easy answer but perhaps it's all closer to home than we'd like to admit.
I suppose my point is that we should be trying to understand why we are here. If we just condemn or say people are falling for the actions of a grifter then we lose an important part of the analysis required. Why have we created conditions where nastiness and aggressiveness are in vogue and how do you change it?
How can we imagine a different future? [Post edited 26 Mar 7:42]
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| ITFC as the lightning rod on 09:44 - Mar 26 with 868 views | Pinewoodblue |
You have put a lot of effort into your post seems a shame that, until now, it has gone without response. I suspect it maybe because it is difficult to know which bit to respond to.
I’ll respond to the question at the end. How can we imagine a different future?
Procrastination isn’t the answer if you want to change things get involved and be a part of it. I am not talking about Farage fiasco. |  |
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| ITFC as the lightning rod on 10:01 - Mar 26 with 814 views | jasondozzell |
| ITFC as the lightning rod on 09:44 - Mar 26 by Pinewoodblue |
You have put a lot of effort into your post seems a shame that, until now, it has gone without response. I suspect it maybe because it is difficult to know which bit to respond to.
I’ll respond to the question at the end. How can we imagine a different future?
Procrastination isn’t the answer if you want to change things get involved and be a part of it. I am not talking about Farage fiasco. |
Thanks, Pinewood. Appreciate it.
I'm genuinely really interested in what everyone's response to this post might be. I feel as if we are in a significant period of history.
I agree about action. I wonder what vehicle or form that might use/take.
I also wonder how much political action can do. Imo we're dealing with something so huge, cultural and social, that it goes beyond normal politics. | | | |
| ITFC as the lightning rod on 10:07 - Mar 26 with 779 views | jasondozzell |
Interested in what you think Ryorry!
No problem with a downvote. Do you disagree with the analysis? I'm open to alternative interpretations. | | | |
| ITFC as the lightning rod on 10:09 - Mar 26 with 773 views | Ryorry |
Sorry, didn’t mean to vote, was just looking to see who had.
I really can’t agree with your comment “The centrists and Labour are the real culprits” though.
No, the real culprits are FarRage, Reform, and whoever it was at ITFC that f’d up. |  |
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| ITFC as the lightning rod on 10:29 - Mar 26 with 725 views | Guthrum |
There is a lot of truth in what you've written about the alienation of the "petit bourgeoisie". However, there is an underlying layer which it is also important to understand. For want of a better term, I shall call it "the decline of Western civilisation".
I do not mean that in the traditional sense of a moral decline softening our moral fibre, but really the erosion of the basis of civilisation in Western political thought. Supported upon a thin raft of myths floating on the bog of societal dissolution.
Individualism has long held that the best of humankind is brought out by standing alone (or as a family unit) upon their own two feet against the world. In reality, nothing could be further from the truth. As a species, our strength was built upon combining together into societies, with collected skillsets and numerical weight. It was at that point we went from a bunch of scared and hungry people wandering around in the woods to shaping the world to our benefit, protecting ourselves from predators.
The myths of modern individualism are themselves based upon a series of myths and knee-jerk reactions. Their origins (and those of their key philosophers) derive from a glamourised idea of the early US Frontier. Tales of Davy Crockett riding out alone against the elements and wild savages. Whereas the genuine historical frontiersmen were operating far from alone, fitting into (and often intermarrying with) existing social structures of the native tribes. Otherwise they died. Many of the early farmsteaders did die, not having access to the knowlege and skillsets those existing societies provided.
The knee-jerk reaction came from central and eastern Europe, the lands under Soviet domination. Rigid authoritarian state control (with a strong message of subsuming the individual into the whole, undermined by deep and visible hypocrisy) led to a desire for individual separation, to have the opposite of the smothering blanket they'd endured for decades. People yearned for a route to self-expression and personal improvement other than pure Party loyalty.
The third strand is the idea that it's even possible to live outside modern society, while still enjoying a decent standard of prosperity - without having a great deal of peronal wealth. Also that that wealth was somehow acquired without the aid of existing social structures (which somebody had to pay for).
There is also the weird conceit that the private sector is somehow more efficient than nationalised services. Despite all the evidence to the contrary (e.g. Thames Water). The illusion of "customer choice" is, in practical terms, wiped out by monopolistic franchises or the big players buying out all their competitors.
All of these things are based upon falsehoods, or are an overreaction to an extreme situation. What is needed is a bit of balance. But also overcoming decades of propaganda that anything not self-centered is tantamount to state oppression (it's practically communism). There needs to be a narrative that humans are stronger - particularly over the longer term - by working together. An emphasis upon the benefits, not merely the shortcomings of civilised society. And the injection of a bit of compassion for one's fellow man, in the knowlege that you could receive the same care if falling upon hard times. |  |
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| ITFC as the lightning rod on 10:30 - Mar 26 with 712 views | Guthrum |
| ITFC as the lightning rod on 09:44 - Mar 26 by Pinewoodblue |
You have put a lot of effort into your post seems a shame that, until now, it has gone without response. I suspect it maybe because it is difficult to know which bit to respond to.
I’ll respond to the question at the end. How can we imagine a different future?
Procrastination isn’t the answer if you want to change things get involved and be a part of it. I am not talking about Farage fiasco. |
I had to go off to the dentist in the middle of writing my response! | |
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| ITFC as the lightning rod on 10:42 - Mar 26 with 684 views | baxterbasics |
| ITFC as the lightning rod on 10:09 - Mar 26 by Ryorry |
Sorry, didn’t mean to vote, was just looking to see who had.
I really can’t agree with your comment “The centrists and Labour are the real culprits” though.
No, the real culprits are FarRage, Reform, and whoever it was at ITFC that f’d up. |
I think the mainstream governments of the last 30 years do bear some responsibility for driving people to the extremes. When they allow chunks of society to be ignored or become disaffected. When they try and bury difficult issues rather than tackle them (Rotherham gangs being a very visible example). When they let our immigration system become a mess. When they don't reform our welfare systems. When they focus more on the optics of diversity rather than root causes of inequality. This creates angst and a space for fringe groups left and right to establish themselves and attract support.
I'm reminded of the Jonathan Pie rant about the rise of Trump, in which he effectively blamed Democrats (and I think, by extension, mainstream Republicans) for driving voters that way by ignoring what was really going on. |  |
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| ITFC as the lightning rod on 11:18 - Mar 26 with 633 views | Guthrum |
| ITFC as the lightning rod on 10:42 - Mar 26 by baxterbasics |
I think the mainstream governments of the last 30 years do bear some responsibility for driving people to the extremes. When they allow chunks of society to be ignored or become disaffected. When they try and bury difficult issues rather than tackle them (Rotherham gangs being a very visible example). When they let our immigration system become a mess. When they don't reform our welfare systems. When they focus more on the optics of diversity rather than root causes of inequality. This creates angst and a space for fringe groups left and right to establish themselves and attract support.
I'm reminded of the Jonathan Pie rant about the rise of Trump, in which he effectively blamed Democrats (and I think, by extension, mainstream Republicans) for driving voters that way by ignoring what was really going on. |
Again, there is much truth in that. However, it is very easy to blame the people who have been trying to operate in the real world when opposed by agitators with no actual responsibilities, who can make promises and hold up imagined futures which are completely unachievable.
There's also a lot of hijacking goes on. I'm not convinced that Farage is himself ideologically racist or xenophobic. He is, instead, cynically using those energies and discontents to achieve the core aim of massive deregulation in areas such as hedge fund management. It's all a means of getting into power (or, at least, exerting influence) so the country can be plundered. Much like Trump. There is no intention of actually trying to tackle pretty unsolveable problems, even if they could. | |
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| ITFC as the lightning rod on 11:41 - Mar 26 with 585 views | Perublue |
Interestingly the Clintons and their circle have connections to the state of how things are and have come to be .. “it’s the economy stupid” and “basket of deplorables” .. cause and effect… are both shining examples (not reasons) in my view how we are were we are in relation to the well put together OP. |  |
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| ITFC as the lightning rod on 11:47 - Mar 26 with 572 views | Perublue |
| ITFC as the lightning rod on 10:30 - Mar 26 by Guthrum |
I had to go off to the dentist in the middle of writing my response! |
In this day and age I think that sadly qualifies as a “look at me” post  | |
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| ITFC as the lightning rod on 12:22 - Mar 26 with 517 views | mellowblue |
UK Government has seemed out of touch, complacent and basically sleep-walking for 20 years plus. The last time it had a clear agenda was early Blair years. Despite it being a fairly decent time, really, with low inflation and interest rates there is a feeling of deep disattachment and disaffection leading to polarizing views and a wish for a more radical approach? Similar thing has happened in the US hence the emergence of Trump and his ensuing victory in 2016 partly due to his better understanding of the sound-bite and what the "common" man wants to hear, power of social media and promotion in general and bascially pushing the envelope as to what you can get away with as opposed to the traditional staid promotional outlook of the establishment at that time. If Farage has read the room and followed a successful pathway, then kudos to him. If the population cannot see through it, then we will get what we deserve. If only we had politicians with substance, charisma, galvanising nature a plan of action to challenge Farage and the current status quo. But in truth, politics is no longer attracting such winners as a career-path .
As for the club, they should have known better, incredible naivety. What did they expect would happen. Controversial-views politician, who is savvy in social media promotion, who is actively campaigning for election, whose lifeblood is publicity. Very foolish. Yet he is a local mp and the club have always been welcoming of local mps, how do you avoid the exploitation that has come with it. Norwich with it's jocular t&c s reference is probably near the mark. I suspect somebody is being tasked with benchmarking whatever t&c s we do have with other clubs. The horse has already bolted, but lessons will be learned. In the meantime this humiliation and embarrassment to the club will remain for quite a while. Promotion, if it happens, will be very nice, but is it already tarnished ? |  | | |
| ITFC as the lightning rod on 16:23 - Mar 26 with 438 views | jasondozzell |
| ITFC as the lightning rod on 10:09 - Mar 26 by Ryorry |
Sorry, didn’t mean to vote, was just looking to see who had.
I really can’t agree with your comment “The centrists and Labour are the real culprits” though.
No, the real culprits are FarRage, Reform, and whoever it was at ITFC that f’d up. |
Fair comment. And I agree in terms of the ITFC situation that the club only have themselves to blame.
I'm not so sure about the national picture. I genuinely believe that centrism is the most immoderate force there is. And incredibly damaging.
But I understand not everyone will share that view.
We can all agree it's bleak times. | | | |
| ITFC as the lightning rod on 16:26 - Mar 26 with 428 views | jasondozzell |
| ITFC as the lightning rod on 10:29 - Mar 26 by Guthrum |
There is a lot of truth in what you've written about the alienation of the "petit bourgeoisie". However, there is an underlying layer which it is also important to understand. For want of a better term, I shall call it "the decline of Western civilisation".
I do not mean that in the traditional sense of a moral decline softening our moral fibre, but really the erosion of the basis of civilisation in Western political thought. Supported upon a thin raft of myths floating on the bog of societal dissolution.
Individualism has long held that the best of humankind is brought out by standing alone (or as a family unit) upon their own two feet against the world. In reality, nothing could be further from the truth. As a species, our strength was built upon combining together into societies, with collected skillsets and numerical weight. It was at that point we went from a bunch of scared and hungry people wandering around in the woods to shaping the world to our benefit, protecting ourselves from predators.
The myths of modern individualism are themselves based upon a series of myths and knee-jerk reactions. Their origins (and those of their key philosophers) derive from a glamourised idea of the early US Frontier. Tales of Davy Crockett riding out alone against the elements and wild savages. Whereas the genuine historical frontiersmen were operating far from alone, fitting into (and often intermarrying with) existing social structures of the native tribes. Otherwise they died. Many of the early farmsteaders did die, not having access to the knowlege and skillsets those existing societies provided.
The knee-jerk reaction came from central and eastern Europe, the lands under Soviet domination. Rigid authoritarian state control (with a strong message of subsuming the individual into the whole, undermined by deep and visible hypocrisy) led to a desire for individual separation, to have the opposite of the smothering blanket they'd endured for decades. People yearned for a route to self-expression and personal improvement other than pure Party loyalty.
The third strand is the idea that it's even possible to live outside modern society, while still enjoying a decent standard of prosperity - without having a great deal of peronal wealth. Also that that wealth was somehow acquired without the aid of existing social structures (which somebody had to pay for).
There is also the weird conceit that the private sector is somehow more efficient than nationalised services. Despite all the evidence to the contrary (e.g. Thames Water). The illusion of "customer choice" is, in practical terms, wiped out by monopolistic franchises or the big players buying out all their competitors.
All of these things are based upon falsehoods, or are an overreaction to an extreme situation. What is needed is a bit of balance. But also overcoming decades of propaganda that anything not self-centered is tantamount to state oppression (it's practically communism). There needs to be a narrative that humans are stronger - particularly over the longer term - by working together. An emphasis upon the benefits, not merely the shortcomings of civilised society. And the injection of a bit of compassion for one's fellow man, in the knowlege that you could receive the same care if falling upon hard times. |
Brilliant post. Thank you!
I think you've captured the heart of the matter here. We've forgotten (or chosen to forget) what society working together is capable of.
I often think people only realise when they fall ill and they are grateful for the hospital care of doctors and nurses. Many even then don't put two and two together.
We are all members of one body to quote an English playwright! | | | |
| ITFC as the lightning rod on 16:29 - Mar 26 with 421 views | jasondozzell |
| ITFC as the lightning rod on 10:42 - Mar 26 by baxterbasics |
I think the mainstream governments of the last 30 years do bear some responsibility for driving people to the extremes. When they allow chunks of society to be ignored or become disaffected. When they try and bury difficult issues rather than tackle them (Rotherham gangs being a very visible example). When they let our immigration system become a mess. When they don't reform our welfare systems. When they focus more on the optics of diversity rather than root causes of inequality. This creates angst and a space for fringe groups left and right to establish themselves and attract support.
I'm reminded of the Jonathan Pie rant about the rise of Trump, in which he effectively blamed Democrats (and I think, by extension, mainstream Republicans) for driving voters that way by ignoring what was really going on. |
I completely agree. If you look at areas Reform is doing well in, it's the forgotten parts of the country. Left behind.
It's why the whole 'Bury is nicer than Ipswich, Ipswich is a sh#hole' thing drives me nuts. People don't understand that's not a failing of Ipswich. It's because money in this country is separating itself off.
We're close to gated communities here like the states.
P s Ipswich is great | | | |
| ITFC as the lightning rod on 16:31 - Mar 26 with 410 views | jasondozzell |
| ITFC as the lightning rod on 12:22 - Mar 26 by mellowblue |
UK Government has seemed out of touch, complacent and basically sleep-walking for 20 years plus. The last time it had a clear agenda was early Blair years. Despite it being a fairly decent time, really, with low inflation and interest rates there is a feeling of deep disattachment and disaffection leading to polarizing views and a wish for a more radical approach? Similar thing has happened in the US hence the emergence of Trump and his ensuing victory in 2016 partly due to his better understanding of the sound-bite and what the "common" man wants to hear, power of social media and promotion in general and bascially pushing the envelope as to what you can get away with as opposed to the traditional staid promotional outlook of the establishment at that time. If Farage has read the room and followed a successful pathway, then kudos to him. If the population cannot see through it, then we will get what we deserve. If only we had politicians with substance, charisma, galvanising nature a plan of action to challenge Farage and the current status quo. But in truth, politics is no longer attracting such winners as a career-path .
As for the club, they should have known better, incredible naivety. What did they expect would happen. Controversial-views politician, who is savvy in social media promotion, who is actively campaigning for election, whose lifeblood is publicity. Very foolish. Yet he is a local mp and the club have always been welcoming of local mps, how do you avoid the exploitation that has come with it. Norwich with it's jocular t&c s reference is probably near the mark. I suspect somebody is being tasked with benchmarking whatever t&c s we do have with other clubs. The horse has already bolted, but lessons will be learned. In the meantime this humiliation and embarrassment to the club will remain for quite a while. Promotion, if it happens, will be very nice, but is it already tarnished ? |
Agree wholeheartedly. There's no direction, no plan, no talent.
In contrast, Farage is a skilful politician. He knows exactly what he's doing.
We need a complete clear out of the political class. | | | |
| ITFC as the lightning rod on 18:03 - Mar 26 with 332 views | jasondozzell |
I wrote this this morning before this afternoon's news but it feels even more relevant .
ITFC is probably the first battle of the 2029 general election which I have for a long time thought Reform will win. Crazy to think Town are in the middle but we are.
This is the zeitgeist. And if we don't seem to understand what is happening we are finished. | | | |
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