| Who was asking about charges against politicians? 06:59 - Nov 2 with 1025 views | bluelagos |
No idea if this is a goer but the question has been asked. Presume something would have leaked out if it was genuinely being considered.
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| Who was asking about charges against politicians? on 09:36 - Nov 2 with 909 views | DJR |
I suppose an example that springs to mind is the decision to move hospital patients into care homes where they caught Covid and died. In this case, the Department of Health would appear to be the department to hold to account.
For corporate manslaughter, the following needs to be proved:
1. the defendant is a qualifying organisation (which the Department of Health is);
2. the organisation owed a relevant duty of care to the deceased;
3. there was a gross breach of that duty by the organisation;
4. the way in which its activities were managed or organised by its senior
management was a substantial element in the breach; and
5. the gross breach of the organisation’s duty caused or contributed to the death.
I certainly think that element 2 would be satisfied in the case of a person moved to a care home. But I think it would extremely difficult to prove elements 3 and 4, given the lack of knowledge of Covid transmission at that stage and the fact that the pandemic was a once in a lifetime event, making it difficult to argue that lack of organisation, at least so far as the Department of Health is concerned, was a key factor.
EDIT: this post has focused on corporate manslaughter. But I think there would be equal difficulty in pursuing a gross negligence manslaughter charge against an individual. [Post edited 2 Nov 2023 15:52]
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| Who was asking about charges against politicians? on 09:43 - Nov 2 with 886 views | Swansea_Blue |
I’ve mused on here before whether there’s an equivalent to corporate manslaughter for politicians. Never really got to the bottom of that and how they’re shielded, so it will be interesting to see how this plays out. There may even be a case to argue for something along the lines of treason, given how they’ve wilfully undermined the UK for personal gain. At the very least negligence and corruption in office. |  |
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| Who was asking about charges against politicians? on 09:54 - Nov 2 with 873 views | Churchman |
I was. If the current laws don’t allow it, change them. They did for the Nuremberg war criminals. There’s plenty of previous in English history too of retrospective action. Just ask Oliver Cromwell and the Regicides. |  | | |
| Who was asking about charges against politicians? on 14:07 - Nov 2 with 810 views | DJR |
| Who was asking about charges against politicians? on 09:36 - Nov 2 by DJR |
I suppose an example that springs to mind is the decision to move hospital patients into care homes where they caught Covid and died. In this case, the Department of Health would appear to be the department to hold to account.
For corporate manslaughter, the following needs to be proved:
1. the defendant is a qualifying organisation (which the Department of Health is);
2. the organisation owed a relevant duty of care to the deceased;
3. there was a gross breach of that duty by the organisation;
4. the way in which its activities were managed or organised by its senior
management was a substantial element in the breach; and
5. the gross breach of the organisation’s duty caused or contributed to the death.
I certainly think that element 2 would be satisfied in the case of a person moved to a care home. But I think it would extremely difficult to prove elements 3 and 4, given the lack of knowledge of Covid transmission at that stage and the fact that the pandemic was a once in a lifetime event, making it difficult to argue that lack of organisation, at least so far as the Department of Health is concerned, was a key factor.
EDIT: this post has focused on corporate manslaughter. But I think there would be equal difficulty in pursuing a gross negligence manslaughter charge against an individual. [Post edited 2 Nov 2023 15:52]
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The following from today's Covid hearing indicates it would be difficult to prove a gross breach of duty care in the case I suggested.
Simon Stevens [NHS head at the time]says Matt Hancock decided on 11 March that people being discharged from hospitals into care homes would not be prioritised for testing. He says Hancock took this decision on the basis of clinical advice.
At the time, he says, there was a recognition that people could have Covid without being symptomatic. But he says there was “uncertainty” around the extent to which that happened.
He says the courts have looked at this issue. He says the courts decided that it was reasonable for ministers to prioritise testing in the way that they did, but that better guidance should have been offered to care homes about isolating people being admitted from hospital. [Post edited 2 Nov 2023 15:39]
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| Who was asking about charges against politicians? on 14:53 - Nov 2 with 780 views | BloomBlue |
The law doesn't allow that. Same with the Iraq enquiry, Blair & Brown got away with mass murder.
The trouble is where decisions aren't black/white. Look at lockdown if this enquiry concludes lockdown was wrong (based on facts after the event) do we also lock up those scientists who said lockdown? Surely under her 'corporate manslaughter' point, those experts would also fall under the same law.
Again look at education. The consensus now seems to be moving towards shutting down schools was wrong from the aspect of childrens education/mental wellbeing. But from a teacher perspective being stuck in schools increasingly the chances of them catching covid, shutting down was correct. If this enquiry finds locking down was wrong, do we lock up those people (experts) who pushed for school lockdowns. |  | | |
| Who was asking about charges against politicians? on 15:14 - Nov 2 with 751 views | DJR |
| Who was asking about charges against politicians? on 14:53 - Nov 2 by BloomBlue |
The law doesn't allow that. Same with the Iraq enquiry, Blair & Brown got away with mass murder.
The trouble is where decisions aren't black/white. Look at lockdown if this enquiry concludes lockdown was wrong (based on facts after the event) do we also lock up those scientists who said lockdown? Surely under her 'corporate manslaughter' point, those experts would also fall under the same law.
Again look at education. The consensus now seems to be moving towards shutting down schools was wrong from the aspect of childrens education/mental wellbeing. But from a teacher perspective being stuck in schools increasingly the chances of them catching covid, shutting down was correct. If this enquiry finds locking down was wrong, do we lock up those people (experts) who pushed for school lockdowns. |
The Corporate Manslaughter Act 2007 does allow government departments (such as the Cabinet Office and the Department of Health) to be charged with corporate manslaughter.
There is, however, quite a high threshold, and in the examples you give, the fact that there might be views either way makes it even more difficult. And the offence has to be looked at the time, not with the benefit of hindsight.
And for similar reasons, I don't think a gross negligence manslaughter charge would succeed against an individual. The offence, in any event, tends to be confined to deaths in custody, deaths in the workplace and deaths in a medical setting. [Post edited 2 Nov 2023 15:55]
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