| Genuine question - how can anyone justify the vote supporting the 1% cap? 10:19 - Jun 29 with 12443 views | Superfrans |
Honestly, honestly, honestly. I'm just trying to understand how the Tories can justify voting against lifting the 1% cap on pay rises. I'd appreciate any thoughts from any Tory voters on here, or those who are right of centre.
Everyone knows what a great job these people do (nurses, fire-fighters, teachers etc).
And this cap prevents them receiving what is surely fair for any worker - an annual wage rise in line with inflation, to ensure wages keep in line with the general cost of living.
A 1% pay rise vs RPI of 3.7% (as it currently is).
As a political stand, it makes no sense - given the amount of love/support there is for fir-fighters, police and health workers atm, especially given all they've contributed following the terror attacks and the Grenfell Fire.
On any level (politics, moral, economic) I can't see how it makes sense (apart from, maybe, to give Labour a bloody nose). |  |
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| Genuine question - how can anyone justify the vote supporting the 1% cap? on 10:22 - Jun 29 with 6958 views | homer_123 |
Doubt many are against.
Playing devils advocate for a second - who pays for it?
In answer, it does appear more people are happy to pay more tax to fund such things but still lower than in the 90's. |  |
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| Genuine question - how can anyone justify the vote supporting the 1% cap? on 10:24 - Jun 29 with 6950 views | GeoffSentence |
The justification is that it saves the public purse a lot of money at a time when the country is still spending more money than it earns. So we have to stick with it in order to reduce and ultimately get rid of the deficit.
However, whilst getting rid of the deficit is a worthy aim, to stick with this whilst reducing corporation tax and offering the prospect of more tax cuts really does tell you where this tory government's priorities are. And they are not with hard working public sector workers who are just about managing. |  |
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| Genuine question - how can anyone justify the vote supporting the 1% cap? on 10:26 - Jun 29 with 6938 views | chicoazul |
It's politics. They are going to lift it in the Autumn budget and want to take the credit for it all themselves. No way in a million years would they vote with Labour.
Also i would add that everyone has their own RPI and RPI is based on a basket of goods. Nurses may not buy much paint, cut flowers or sat navs. |  |
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| Genuine question - how can anyone justify the vote supporting the 1% cap? on 10:29 - Jun 29 with 6920 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
It sounds like the Tories are going to address it, so dont get your knickers in a twist.
My wife works in the private sector, her organisation restructured and she got a 20% pay cut.
....1% pay rise sounds pretty good in comparison.
I think the emergency services deserve a better deal, but lets not pretend its isolated to the local authority workers.
Genuine question.... do public sector workers still get salary related pensions??!?!? |  |
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| Genuine question - how can anyone justify the vote supporting the 1% cap? on 10:39 - Jun 29 with 6879 views | StokieBlue |
I don't think anyone objects to an increase, I think people disagree on if it's possible to fund it.
"And this cap prevents them receiving what is surely fair for any worker - an annual wage rise in line with inflation, to ensure wages keep in line with the general cost of living.
A 1% pay rise vs RPI of 3.7% (as it currently is). "
I think a lot of private sector workers haven't had a pay rise in line with inflation in quite some time.
SB |  |
| Avatar - M51 - The Whirlpool Galaxy - Taken on 29th April 2024 |
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| Genuine question - how can anyone justify the vote supporting the 1% cap? on 11:01 - Jun 29 with 6847 views | Steve_M |
It's more that the vote on the Queen's Speech is a vote of confidence in the government, that makes it pretty hard for any Tory MP to vote against it and in support of the Labour amendment.
That's just politics, as was Labour's amendment knowing that this would be the outcome. Smart politics in Labour's case though. |  |
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| Genuine question - how can anyone justify the vote supporting the 1% cap? on 11:07 - Jun 29 with 6828 views | CaptainObvious |
it was a vote of confidence in the government, the content of the amendment was effectively irrelevant. |  |
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| Genuine question - how can anyone justify the vote supporting the 1% cap? on 11:15 - Jun 29 with 6796 views | xrayspecs |
There has been a general squeeze on pay across both public and private sector. We have also seen introduction of zero hour contracts and similar. All are looking to keep wages under control.
Public sector salaries have traditionally been lower than private sector but job security and benefits were higher, including final salary pension schemes.
The UK has been spending more than it can afford for some time and public sector salaries remains a large component, hence the focus on keeping this under control . Inflation has also been a lot lower than the 3.7% you state. It is only the post Brexit vote fall in the pound that has pushed the figure up, I believe RPI has been closer to 2% over recent years. |  | | |
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| Genuine question - how can anyone justify the vote supporting the 1% cap? on 11:16 - Jun 29 with 6778 views | blue_oyster |
There's no money left now the DUP have taken the last of it. |  |
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| Genuine question - how can anyone justify the vote supporting the 1% cap? on 11:48 - Jun 29 with 6693 views | Dubtractor |
| Genuine question - how can anyone justify the vote supporting the 1% cap? on 10:24 - Jun 29 by GeoffSentence |
The justification is that it saves the public purse a lot of money at a time when the country is still spending more money than it earns. So we have to stick with it in order to reduce and ultimately get rid of the deficit.
However, whilst getting rid of the deficit is a worthy aim, to stick with this whilst reducing corporation tax and offering the prospect of more tax cuts really does tell you where this tory government's priorities are. And they are not with hard working public sector workers who are just about managing. |
I wish I could give this more than one vote. |  |
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| Genuine question - how can anyone justify the vote supporting the 1% cap? on 11:57 - Jun 29 with 6650 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Genuine question - how can anyone justify the vote supporting the 1% cap? on 10:26 - Jun 29 by chicoazul |
It's politics. They are going to lift it in the Autumn budget and want to take the credit for it all themselves. No way in a million years would they vote with Labour.
Also i would add that everyone has their own RPI and RPI is based on a basket of goods. Nurses may not buy much paint, cut flowers or sat navs. |
This, I suspect. Petty scenes yesterday in HoC. Both sides more interested in scoring political points than doing what's best for the country. |  |
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| Genuine question - how can anyone justify the vote supporting the 1% cap? on 12:07 - Jun 29 with 6618 views | Darth_Koont |
It's all tied up with ideology. Why give "excessive" pay rises to an unnecessary cost that could/should be replaced in time by private enterprise?
But I agree entirely - there's zero basis in logic or reality. |  |
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| Genuine question - how can anyone justify the vote supporting the 1% cap? on 12:14 - Jun 29 with 6587 views | Superfrans |
| Genuine question - how can anyone justify the vote supporting the 1% cap? on 10:22 - Jun 29 by homer_123 |
Doubt many are against.
Playing devils advocate for a second - who pays for it?
In answer, it does appear more people are happy to pay more tax to fund such things but still lower than in the 90's. |
My question would be, how much does it cost? What is the cost of 3% increase vs 1% increase? And how does that then compare to the £1.5bn that has just been promised to the DUP? Or a 1% increase in corporation tax, which is worth £2.5bn? | |
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| Genuine question - how can anyone justify the vote supporting the 1% cap? on 12:15 - Jun 29 with 6582 views | Superfrans |
| Genuine question - how can anyone justify the vote supporting the 1% cap? on 10:29 - Jun 29 by Marshalls_Mullet |
It sounds like the Tories are going to address it, so dont get your knickers in a twist.
My wife works in the private sector, her organisation restructured and she got a 20% pay cut.
....1% pay rise sounds pretty good in comparison.
I think the emergency services deserve a better deal, but lets not pretend its isolated to the local authority workers.
Genuine question.... do public sector workers still get salary related pensions??!?!? |
A 1% pay rise isn't a pay rise if the cost of living is rising at a higher rate.
By all means, peg annual rises to RPI. That's fine. But capping it at a lower rate? Really?
Edit:
On your other points. Private sector pay is irrelevant. The Government isn't your wife's employer, lower pay for her isn't an excuse.
Besides, if you wife has been forced into a 20% pay cut, she will presumably have a different role/job. If not, she should get some legal advice and take her employer to a tribunal. [Post edited 29 Jun 2017 12:19]
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| Genuine question - how can anyone justify the vote supporting the 1% cap? on 12:16 - Jun 29 with 6574 views | Weekender |
| Genuine question - how can anyone justify the vote supporting the 1% cap? on 10:39 - Jun 29 by StokieBlue |
I don't think anyone objects to an increase, I think people disagree on if it's possible to fund it.
"And this cap prevents them receiving what is surely fair for any worker - an annual wage rise in line with inflation, to ensure wages keep in line with the general cost of living.
A 1% pay rise vs RPI of 3.7% (as it currently is). "
I think a lot of private sector workers haven't had a pay rise in line with inflation in quite some time.
SB |
The issue I have with this counter argument is that it creates a race to the bottom. It may be that some private firms cant raise pay by RPI but most can I suspect. The economy has been In reasonable shape for a few years now.
Should the argument not be that everyone should get an inflation matching raise, not, I don't get one so why should anyone else.
Similarly with pensions, the comment is often that private workers don't get generous company pensions so why should the public sector. You don't often hear anyone ask why private pensions aren't as good as public. |  |
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| Genuine question - how can anyone justify the vote supporting the 1% cap? on 12:18 - Jun 29 with 6562 views | StokieBlue |
| Genuine question - how can anyone justify the vote supporting the 1% cap? on 12:16 - Jun 29 by Weekender |
The issue I have with this counter argument is that it creates a race to the bottom. It may be that some private firms cant raise pay by RPI but most can I suspect. The economy has been In reasonable shape for a few years now.
Should the argument not be that everyone should get an inflation matching raise, not, I don't get one so why should anyone else.
Similarly with pensions, the comment is often that private workers don't get generous company pensions so why should the public sector. You don't often hear anyone ask why private pensions aren't as good as public. |
"Should the argument not be that everyone should get an inflation matching raise, not, I don't get one so why should anyone else. "
This would seem to be the inverse of the Labour argument of "the rich have more why shouldn't X" wouldn't it?
SB [Post edited 29 Jun 2017 12:27]
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| Avatar - M51 - The Whirlpool Galaxy - Taken on 29th April 2024 |
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| Genuine question - how can anyone justify the vote supporting the 1% cap? on 12:25 - Jun 29 with 6516 views | Superfrans |
| Genuine question - how can anyone justify the vote supporting the 1% cap? on 12:16 - Jun 29 by Weekender |
The issue I have with this counter argument is that it creates a race to the bottom. It may be that some private firms cant raise pay by RPI but most can I suspect. The economy has been In reasonable shape for a few years now.
Should the argument not be that everyone should get an inflation matching raise, not, I don't get one so why should anyone else.
Similarly with pensions, the comment is often that private workers don't get generous company pensions so why should the public sector. You don't often hear anyone ask why private pensions aren't as good as public. |
Every private firm should raise pay by RPI. If it were possible to legislate on this (I'm not sure it is), it should be a legal requirement to increase salary by a minimum inflation rate. Without this, an employer is effectively reducing wage levels by stealth.
And this issue on pensions - it maybe so that public sector pensions are often higher, but it is also so that private sector bonuses are often higher. This argument is pure deflection. There is no justification (moral or otherwise) for saying to anyone in work that the wage you are earning today should be lower next year, which is what a 1% cap effectively does.
There have been a couple of posts saying that it's politics.
That's not a justification - these issues should be above politics. Bad justification.
It's also not a good reason - the political impact is that this reinforces the view among many people that the Tories are the nasty party again. Bad politics. | |
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| Genuine question - how can anyone justify the vote supporting the 1% cap? on 12:26 - Jun 29 with 6500 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
| Genuine question - how can anyone justify the vote supporting the 1% cap? on 12:15 - Jun 29 by Superfrans |
A 1% pay rise isn't a pay rise if the cost of living is rising at a higher rate.
By all means, peg annual rises to RPI. That's fine. But capping it at a lower rate? Really?
Edit:
On your other points. Private sector pay is irrelevant. The Government isn't your wife's employer, lower pay for her isn't an excuse.
Besides, if you wife has been forced into a 20% pay cut, she will presumably have a different role/job. If not, she should get some legal advice and take her employer to a tribunal. [Post edited 29 Jun 2017 12:19]
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1% is a pay rise compared to zero.
You need to live in the real world my friend.
She WAS FORCED to take a pay cut!! They operated a redundancy process, and juggled the jobs around a little, she had to take a 20% pay cut to stay in a job. She works part time as we have kids, so finding another job isnt easy.
I will excuse your extreme ignorance. | |
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| Genuine question - how can anyone justify the vote supporting the 1% cap? on 12:27 - Jun 29 with 6495 views | Superfrans |
| Genuine question - how can anyone justify the vote supporting the 1% cap? on 12:18 - Jun 29 by StokieBlue |
"Should the argument not be that everyone should get an inflation matching raise, not, I don't get one so why should anyone else. "
This would seem to be the inverse of the Labour argument of "the rich have more why shouldn't X" wouldn't it?
SB [Post edited 29 Jun 2017 12:27]
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I don't understand your second sentence. How is it that the desire for people not to have their wages eroded is the inverse of the Labour argument? | |
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| Genuine question - how can anyone justify the vote supporting the 1% cap? on 12:28 - Jun 29 with 6487 views | StokieBlue |
| Genuine question - how can anyone justify the vote supporting the 1% cap? on 12:25 - Jun 29 by Superfrans |
Every private firm should raise pay by RPI. If it were possible to legislate on this (I'm not sure it is), it should be a legal requirement to increase salary by a minimum inflation rate. Without this, an employer is effectively reducing wage levels by stealth.
And this issue on pensions - it maybe so that public sector pensions are often higher, but it is also so that private sector bonuses are often higher. This argument is pure deflection. There is no justification (moral or otherwise) for saying to anyone in work that the wage you are earning today should be lower next year, which is what a 1% cap effectively does.
There have been a couple of posts saying that it's politics.
That's not a justification - these issues should be above politics. Bad justification.
It's also not a good reason - the political impact is that this reinforces the view among many people that the Tories are the nasty party again. Bad politics. |
So you want laws which govern how private entities run their internal pay structures?
Why bother having private entities at all?
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| Avatar - M51 - The Whirlpool Galaxy - Taken on 29th April 2024 |
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| Genuine question - how can anyone justify the vote supporting the 1% cap? on 12:29 - Jun 29 with 6481 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
| Genuine question - how can anyone justify the vote supporting the 1% cap? on 12:25 - Jun 29 by Superfrans |
Every private firm should raise pay by RPI. If it were possible to legislate on this (I'm not sure it is), it should be a legal requirement to increase salary by a minimum inflation rate. Without this, an employer is effectively reducing wage levels by stealth.
And this issue on pensions - it maybe so that public sector pensions are often higher, but it is also so that private sector bonuses are often higher. This argument is pure deflection. There is no justification (moral or otherwise) for saying to anyone in work that the wage you are earning today should be lower next year, which is what a 1% cap effectively does.
There have been a couple of posts saying that it's politics.
That's not a justification - these issues should be above politics. Bad justification.
It's also not a good reason - the political impact is that this reinforces the view among many people that the Tories are the nasty party again. Bad politics. |
You really dont live in the real world do you, are you jeremy corbyn?
Private firms have a budget to work to, a fixed pay rise may lead to job losses.
Do you understand accounting? Ah, in Corbyns world there is endless money to go around.
Do you work in the public sector? Do you work at all? | |
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| Genuine question - how can anyone justify the vote supporting the 1% cap? on 12:30 - Jun 29 with 6468 views | Superfrans |
| Genuine question - how can anyone justify the vote supporting the 1% cap? on 12:29 - Jun 29 by Marshalls_Mullet |
You really dont live in the real world do you, are you jeremy corbyn?
Private firms have a budget to work to, a fixed pay rise may lead to job losses.
Do you understand accounting? Ah, in Corbyns world there is endless money to go around.
Do you work in the public sector? Do you work at all? |
I run a business with a multi-million pound turnover and everyone has a RPI (minimum) salary increase every January. | |
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| Genuine question - how can anyone justify the vote supporting the 1% cap? on 12:32 - Jun 29 with 6457 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
| Genuine question - how can anyone justify the vote supporting the 1% cap? on 12:30 - Jun 29 by Superfrans |
I run a business with a multi-million pound turnover and everyone has a RPI (minimum) salary increase every January. |
Good for you, your budget may allow that. That doesnt mean everyone should be forced to do it, not everyones budget would stand that. | |
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| Genuine question - how can anyone justify the vote supporting the 1% cap? on 12:43 - Jun 29 with 6415 views | StokieBlue |
| Genuine question - how can anyone justify the vote supporting the 1% cap? on 12:30 - Jun 29 by Superfrans |
I run a business with a multi-million pound turnover and everyone has a RPI (minimum) salary increase every January. |
Good for you.
What about the years you lose money?
SB | |
| Avatar - M51 - The Whirlpool Galaxy - Taken on 29th April 2024 |
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| Genuine question - how can anyone justify the vote supporting the 1% cap? on 12:45 - Jun 29 with 6405 views | Superfrans |
| Genuine question - how can anyone justify the vote supporting the 1% cap? on 12:32 - Jun 29 by Marshalls_Mullet |
Good for you, your budget may allow that. That doesnt mean everyone should be forced to do it, not everyones budget would stand that. |
I'm not grand-standing btw, but you asked a straight (and rather chippy) question - I gave a straight answer. I never talk about my work on here, by and large.
It is possible for businesses to operate in a sustainable way and absorb those kinds of costs. You're talking about probably a 1/2% increase in salary costs above the cap proposed. That is not unachievable, by any means.
I can totally see that there might need to be exceptions, but the general principle should be solid. There are too many businesses which offer below-inflation increases to maintain profit levels and protect bonuses. It shouldn't be accepted. | |
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