| BBC2 ..is it safe to be gay in the UK 22:56 - Aug 1 with 18124 views | gtsb1966 |
Anyone watch it. I did. I don't understand it to be honest. I can't understand how people of the same sex can be attracted to each other. It doesn't bother me but the programme was about violence towards the gay community. Does gay pride fuel the fire? |  | | |  |
| BBC2 ..is it safe to be gay in the UK on 07:14 - Aug 2 with 6470 views | Benters |
oh ladyboys.
How do they work again? |  |
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| BBC2 ..is it safe to be gay in the UK on 07:17 - Aug 2 with 6480 views | groovyASH |
I am gay and really there is no choice or logic behind it. It's no more a choice than heterosexual people being attracted to the opposite sex. I just am! I also like it and wouldn't change it. I am in a happy long term relationship with someone I connect too and love in so many ways, that we both happen to be men does not really factor in.
Incidentally I have never felt it was not safe to be gay in the UK personally, but I do know many people who have been either physically or verbally assaulted for being gay- and that's what I don't understand. [Post edited 2 Aug 2017 7:25]
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| BBC2 ..is it safe to be gay in the UK on 07:17 - Aug 2 with 6469 views | connorscontract |
| BBC2 ..is it safe to be gay in the UK on 02:40 - Aug 2 by Ryorry |
Full marks for an outstanding reply CC, I'll read it more thoroughly at a sensible time.
Just a quick response from me meanwhile re the 'nature v nurture' debate. Anyone who's had pets or observed sheep and cattle in their fields, will have seen all genders mounting each other, both opposites and same sex. It's natural & frequent behaviour amongst animals, and that includes both juveniles and adults. |
Thanks to you and others for the kind responses, R. I've really only scratched the surface there, and haven't gone onto bisexuality, pansexuality, spectrum theories of sexual attraction and the role of sexual experimentation, or the much more complex world of transgender issues.
My wife went to a national day conference on youth work and transgender and non-binary issues, recently. The picture that emerged is that it is incredibly difficult, even for THE national experts in the NHS, to work out the right approach to respond to the increasing number of young people who are identifying as trans in early puberty.
They largely have questions not answers: is it better to make the transition early, and experience teenage years and the search for self-identity as their chosen gender? Should hormone therapies be given this young? At what age should operations be offered? At what age can consent be deemed to be informed?
The recent Eddie Redmayne film "The Danish Girl" does a very good job of humanising and personalising transgender issues, which for many of us could easily become a distant and abstract theoretical question.
And I should have mentioned the Benedict Cumberbatch film about WW2 hero amd mathematical genius and computing pioneer Alan Turing, "The Imitation Game", in response to the original questions about homoaexuality.
In case anyone is wondering, there are so many words with numbers replacing vowels in the original post because it kept saying "offensive language", so I kept changing words until eventually I worked out that "qu3er-bashing" was the filtered word. |  | | |
| BBC2 ..is it safe to be gay in the UK on 07:20 - Aug 2 with 6461 views | BlueBadger |
It 'fuels' it about as much as Mother's Day fuels domestic violence. |  |
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| BBC2 ..is it safe to be gay in the UK on 07:21 - Aug 2 with 6454 views | BlueBadger |
| BBC2 ..is it safe to be gay in the UK on 23:03 - Aug 1 by gtsb1966 |
What surprised me about the programme tonight was that the main protagonist was a woman!!! |
Despite what Queen Victoria told us, gay women exist as well..... | |
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| BBC2 ..is it safe to be gay in the UK on 07:23 - Aug 2 with 6442 views | Benters |
| BBC2 ..is it safe to be gay in the UK on 07:21 - Aug 2 by BlueBadger |
Despite what Queen Victoria told us, gay women exist as well..... |
I work in a gay ladies garden,she is always having a pop at me,miserable cow. | |
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| BBC2 ..is it safe to be gay in the UK on 07:35 - Aug 2 with 6421 views | connorscontract |
| BBC2 ..is it safe to be gay in the UK on 07:23 - Aug 2 by Benters |
I work in a gay ladies garden,she is always having a pop at me,miserable cow. |
I'm surprised she lets a man prune her lady garden at all.
Maybe use hand moisturiser and she won't be quite so unhappy.
Hope that helps. | | | |
| BBC2 ..is it safe to be gay in the UK on 07:38 - Aug 2 with 6414 views | gtsb1966 |
| BBC2 ..is it safe to be gay in the UK on 07:21 - Aug 2 by BlueBadger |
Despite what Queen Victoria told us, gay women exist as well..... |
The woman i was referring to was the one dishing out the beating!!!! [Post edited 2 Aug 2017 7:41]
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| BBC2 ..is it safe to be gay in the UK on 07:44 - Aug 2 with 6394 views | chicoazul |
| BBC2 ..is it safe to be gay in the UK on 07:38 - Aug 2 by gtsb1966 |
The woman i was referring to was the one dishing out the beating!!!! [Post edited 2 Aug 2017 7:41]
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I'm not sure what this means but i would say that lesbians and gay men often hate each other. |  |
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| BBC2 ..is it safe to be gay in the UK on 07:55 - Aug 2 with 6385 views | gtsb1966 |
| BBC2 ..is it safe to be gay in the UK on 07:44 - Aug 2 by chicoazul |
I'm not sure what this means but i would say that lesbians and gay men often hate each other. |
She was straight but beating up a gay man. | | | |
| BBC2 ..is it safe to be gay in the UK on 07:59 - Aug 2 with 6367 views | chicoazul |
| BBC2 ..is it safe to be gay in the UK on 07:55 - Aug 2 by gtsb1966 |
She was straight but beating up a gay man. |
Ah. That's your standard gay bashing then. Happens quite a lot even nowadays so I understand. | |
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| BBC2 ..is it safe to be gay in the UK on 08:40 - Aug 2 with 6327 views | factual_blue |
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| BBC2 ..is it safe to be gay in the UK on 09:24 - Aug 2 with 6277 views | gordon |
| BBC2 ..is it safe to be gay in the UK on 00:41 - Aug 2 by connorscontract |
You watched the programme and say that it doesn't bother you and in another post say that the people committing the violence are in the wrong, so I'll take your questions at face value. Part of the difficulty here is that fear of causing offence, or of being accused of being prejudiced means that those, particularly of older generations, who are expected to change their views and values to be more inclusive don't feel able to ask questions or talk about it honestly.
So...
You raise 2 main issues.
1) you don't understand how people of the same sex can be attracted to each other.
2) you ask why there is violence towards gay people, and ask whether gay pride fuels the fire.
1) Psychologists and Geneticists are divided on the extent to which sexuality is genetically presdisposed and the extent to which it is socially learned, acquired behaviour. This is called the Nature (genes) v Nurture (learned behaviour) debate. Whilst there have been strong proponents of either position over the years the prevailing consensus is that both play a role, and that predispositions may be switched on or off through life experiences.
That's quite a dry debate, though, and people often take one or other position for their own reasons. For example, those who hate gay people may argue that homosexuality is unnatural (that is argue against the genetic theory) and the result of corruption, entrapment or, as some psychologists have done in the past, the result of a failure of bonding or the result of the absence of a father figure.
In contrast, and in response to the tone of some of these psychological theories (homosexuality was classified as a disorder in the American Diagnostic Manuals used in every US hospital within the last 40 years) and especially in response to those who rant against homosexuals as "unnatural" or "p3rverted", many within the gay pride movement have wanted to emphasise the genetic theories to be able to say "I was born this way".
So the dry debate heats up. But it doesn't get to the heart of your question, really. What is sexual attraction? When does it start? How does it develop? What were the points along that journey that you remember?
Do you remember shivering with excitement as you were about to experience a new milestone sexually? Well, for gay people it's the same, but they get that response when anticipating intimacy with someone of the same sex. Do you sometimes find yourself just a little bit more keen to talk to someone, that there is a bit of a spark there, that you are flirting? Well, for gay people they get that feeling with someone of the same sex.
That's the heart of it. Heart beating faster, pupils opening wider, looking at the shape of another's body, electricity on touching an arm, oh and er3ct pen1ses and n1pples or mo1stness, the same physical responses and the same desire to be touched, held, loved, f0ndled or to take or be taken, but in response to the close physical proximity of someone of the same sex.
That's all there is to get or understand. It's just what the combination of their hormones, imaginations, and response to physical closeness does to their body. Some blokes fancy blokes. Some women fancy women. Some blokes fancy women. Some women fancy blokes.
I'm assuming that you are a bloke, and from what you are saying here, that you fancy women Can you understand how women can fancy blokes, even though you are not a woman and don't fancy blokes? Well, it's like that. Only a bit different.
2) The history of the repression of homosexuality in this country (and abroad, but that's for another time) goes back quite a long way, although there is evidence that there have been prominent gay people in the Royal Courts who were completely accepted, and indeed very influential, going back centuries. But the roots are many and varied, and include religious teachings.
But let's be honest, most of the white people who indulge in qu3er-bashing are more likely to be in right wing gangs than Sunday School. So what is it about the sociology of these gangs and the psychology of their members that causes them to attack gay people?
For some there may be Far Right political doctrine that influences them. H1tler, and other Naz1s, presented a vision of society based on an ideal type of German citizen. He drew on the philosophy of Nietsche and deplored those he saw as lesser and weaker specimens of humanity. Freud's teachings on psychology were still prevalent and homosexuality was seen as the result of failures to bond and thrive and make appropriate relationships. Homosexual culture, represented in the 20's and 30's cabaret and jazz scenes in Germany was seen as decadent, corrupting and un-German. Many gay people were sent to concentration camps, and died there, as a result of his policies.
So hatred of gays amongst Far Right groups has a long history.
Then there is the question of what drives people to join these groups? Disaffection with society- almost always. A feeling of having no stake in society- often. A need to belong? That's the heart of it. And these groups identify themselves by what they oppose, those who they hate. And gay people are seen by them as symptoms of a multicultural, inclusive society which they despise. Above all they are identifiably different.
But it also happens when a bunch of insecure teenage boys call another teenage boy, who stands out as different, "gay" in an insulting way. Or pick on those few individuals who come out as gay whilst still at school. In these cases a need to fit in, and possibly insecurity about their own sexuality or fear of standing out, leads to verbal or physical abuse.
So to blame Pride is to miss the point, unless you also want to blame anyone who goes to a pop concert for inflaming Jihadi terrorism. Pride is a response to the fear of coming out by brave and strong people who have done it already, sometimes at cost to their acceptance within their family or to the detriment of their career. Pride is their way of encouraging others who haven't yet made that step to embrace self-acceptance.
There will always be hate, but we really shouldn't blame those who suffer the violence.
Two films that may help you to understand further: American Beauty (which covers, amongst other themes, the way in which repressing homosexuality can lead to hatred of homosexuals) and recent Oscar contender "Moonlight" which tells the story of a young African American's journey to adulthood and raises many questions around nature and nurture, identity and sexuality. [Post edited 2 Aug 2017 0:47]
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As I understand it there is fairly clear evidence now that being gay is biologically determined, and a bunch of chromosomes have been identified as carrying sexual orientation:
http://www.slate.com/blogs/outward/2015/06/11/the_science_of_sexual_orientation_
However, there's an enormous amount to learn about genes, sexuality, gender and sex, as you eloquently described in your other post. |  | | |
| BBC2 ..is it safe to be gay in the UK on 09:28 - Aug 2 with 6274 views | gordon |
| BBC2 ..is it safe to be gay in the UK on 23:21 - Aug 1 by gtsb1966 |
To me...yes. Why are we built the way we are. The thing is nobody can have an opinion on here anymore. Homophobic, racist etc are regularly used on here. |
You've not said anything homophobic or racist at all in this thread, so no reason why you should be called such, and I don't think you have.
In general if you want to express homophobic or racist views, fair enough, but you need to be tough enough to accept it if someone calls it what it is. | | | |
| BBC2 ..is it safe to be gay in the UK on 09:39 - Aug 2 with 6260 views | Swailsey |
Dear God. |  |
| Who said: "Colin Healy made Cesc Fabregas look like Colin Healy"? | We miss you TLA |
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| BBC2 ..is it safe to be gay in the UK on 09:53 - Aug 2 with 6243 views | MJallday |
| BBC2 ..is it safe to be gay in the UK on 00:41 - Aug 2 by connorscontract |
You watched the programme and say that it doesn't bother you and in another post say that the people committing the violence are in the wrong, so I'll take your questions at face value. Part of the difficulty here is that fear of causing offence, or of being accused of being prejudiced means that those, particularly of older generations, who are expected to change their views and values to be more inclusive don't feel able to ask questions or talk about it honestly.
So...
You raise 2 main issues.
1) you don't understand how people of the same sex can be attracted to each other.
2) you ask why there is violence towards gay people, and ask whether gay pride fuels the fire.
1) Psychologists and Geneticists are divided on the extent to which sexuality is genetically presdisposed and the extent to which it is socially learned, acquired behaviour. This is called the Nature (genes) v Nurture (learned behaviour) debate. Whilst there have been strong proponents of either position over the years the prevailing consensus is that both play a role, and that predispositions may be switched on or off through life experiences.
That's quite a dry debate, though, and people often take one or other position for their own reasons. For example, those who hate gay people may argue that homosexuality is unnatural (that is argue against the genetic theory) and the result of corruption, entrapment or, as some psychologists have done in the past, the result of a failure of bonding or the result of the absence of a father figure.
In contrast, and in response to the tone of some of these psychological theories (homosexuality was classified as a disorder in the American Diagnostic Manuals used in every US hospital within the last 40 years) and especially in response to those who rant against homosexuals as "unnatural" or "p3rverted", many within the gay pride movement have wanted to emphasise the genetic theories to be able to say "I was born this way".
So the dry debate heats up. But it doesn't get to the heart of your question, really. What is sexual attraction? When does it start? How does it develop? What were the points along that journey that you remember?
Do you remember shivering with excitement as you were about to experience a new milestone sexually? Well, for gay people it's the same, but they get that response when anticipating intimacy with someone of the same sex. Do you sometimes find yourself just a little bit more keen to talk to someone, that there is a bit of a spark there, that you are flirting? Well, for gay people they get that feeling with someone of the same sex.
That's the heart of it. Heart beating faster, pupils opening wider, looking at the shape of another's body, electricity on touching an arm, oh and er3ct pen1ses and n1pples or mo1stness, the same physical responses and the same desire to be touched, held, loved, f0ndled or to take or be taken, but in response to the close physical proximity of someone of the same sex.
That's all there is to get or understand. It's just what the combination of their hormones, imaginations, and response to physical closeness does to their body. Some blokes fancy blokes. Some women fancy women. Some blokes fancy women. Some women fancy blokes.
I'm assuming that you are a bloke, and from what you are saying here, that you fancy women Can you understand how women can fancy blokes, even though you are not a woman and don't fancy blokes? Well, it's like that. Only a bit different.
2) The history of the repression of homosexuality in this country (and abroad, but that's for another time) goes back quite a long way, although there is evidence that there have been prominent gay people in the Royal Courts who were completely accepted, and indeed very influential, going back centuries. But the roots are many and varied, and include religious teachings.
But let's be honest, most of the white people who indulge in qu3er-bashing are more likely to be in right wing gangs than Sunday School. So what is it about the sociology of these gangs and the psychology of their members that causes them to attack gay people?
For some there may be Far Right political doctrine that influences them. H1tler, and other Naz1s, presented a vision of society based on an ideal type of German citizen. He drew on the philosophy of Nietsche and deplored those he saw as lesser and weaker specimens of humanity. Freud's teachings on psychology were still prevalent and homosexuality was seen as the result of failures to bond and thrive and make appropriate relationships. Homosexual culture, represented in the 20's and 30's cabaret and jazz scenes in Germany was seen as decadent, corrupting and un-German. Many gay people were sent to concentration camps, and died there, as a result of his policies.
So hatred of gays amongst Far Right groups has a long history.
Then there is the question of what drives people to join these groups? Disaffection with society- almost always. A feeling of having no stake in society- often. A need to belong? That's the heart of it. And these groups identify themselves by what they oppose, those who they hate. And gay people are seen by them as symptoms of a multicultural, inclusive society which they despise. Above all they are identifiably different.
But it also happens when a bunch of insecure teenage boys call another teenage boy, who stands out as different, "gay" in an insulting way. Or pick on those few individuals who come out as gay whilst still at school. In these cases a need to fit in, and possibly insecurity about their own sexuality or fear of standing out, leads to verbal or physical abuse.
So to blame Pride is to miss the point, unless you also want to blame anyone who goes to a pop concert for inflaming Jihadi terrorism. Pride is a response to the fear of coming out by brave and strong people who have done it already, sometimes at cost to their acceptance within their family or to the detriment of their career. Pride is their way of encouraging others who haven't yet made that step to embrace self-acceptance.
There will always be hate, but we really shouldn't blame those who suffer the violence.
Two films that may help you to understand further: American Beauty (which covers, amongst other themes, the way in which repressing homosexuality can lead to hatred of homosexuals) and recent Oscar contender "Moonlight" which tells the story of a young African American's journey to adulthood and raises many questions around nature and nurture, identity and sexuality. [Post edited 2 Aug 2017 0:47]
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i agree with everything except your last sentence
the two films which will help are "hot girls gone wild" and "hot chicks 4 : return of the black strap on"
apparently |  |
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| BBC2 ..is it safe to be gay in the UK on 10:11 - Aug 2 with 6207 views | connorscontract |
| BBC2 ..is it safe to be gay in the UK on 09:24 - Aug 2 by gordon |
As I understand it there is fairly clear evidence now that being gay is biologically determined, and a bunch of chromosomes have been identified as carrying sexual orientation:
http://www.slate.com/blogs/outward/2015/06/11/the_science_of_sexual_orientation_
However, there's an enormous amount to learn about genes, sexuality, gender and sex, as you eloquently described in your other post. |
But there is still much debate amongst geneticists and psychologists about pre-disposition, traits and genes being "switched on" or not.
So the dominant view is that it is believed that there may be a variety of genes involved in sexuality, but the extent to which they come to dominate over others (because we are all an exceedingly complex mix of many genes, some of which may be contradictory) is also influenced by life experiences. | | | |
| BBC2 ..is it safe to be gay in the UK on 10:13 - Aug 2 with 6204 views | unbelievablue |
It's a tagline title designed to intrigue and provoke, I guess, but in answer to it...
Yes, in the main, but sometimes no, and when no, sometimes it's horrific. |  |
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| BBC2 ..is it safe to be gay in the UK on 12:00 - Aug 2 with 6166 views | BergholtBru |
I have nothing against gay people and in fact recently signed an online petition asking that some gay guy not be deported because of persucution in his home country. However, what gets some peoples backs up is cases like those two in Torquay who vindictively took out that case against those guest house owners, and that guy in Belfast with the cake. Some people will take this as an attack on the straight population by gay rights activists which will hence cause annimosity towards gay people in general. |  |
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| BBC2 ..is it safe to be gay in the UK on 12:26 - Aug 2 with 6138 views | Bluestar |
Er... Nope. |  | | |
| BBC2 ..is it safe to be gay in the UK on 12:32 - Aug 2 with 6120 views | Lord_Lucan |
| BBC2 ..is it safe to be gay in the UK on 09:24 - Aug 2 by gordon |
As I understand it there is fairly clear evidence now that being gay is biologically determined, and a bunch of chromosomes have been identified as carrying sexual orientation:
http://www.slate.com/blogs/outward/2015/06/11/the_science_of_sexual_orientation_
However, there's an enormous amount to learn about genes, sexuality, gender and sex, as you eloquently described in your other post. |
I haven't researched this but isn't it blatantly obvious that you are born how you are. I can't believe for one instance that you can be born either straight or gay and then decide to change - unless of course you are bisexual but end up preferring to go down the man route just so you can enjoy some sensible conversation. |  |
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| BBC2 ..is it safe to be gay in the UK on 12:53 - Aug 2 with 6107 views | jaykay |
i dont understand the down votes for op or being gob smacked. he was completely honest about not understanding love of the same sex (i expect he ment physical love). he wasnt hostile in anyway or used homophobic language. people dont understand alot things about peoples life styles,eg being vegan,calling themselves mummy and daddy to their pets,supporting norwich etc. expect a load of down votes |  |
| forensic experts say footers and spruces fingerprints were not found at the scene after the weekends rows |
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| BBC2 ..is it safe to be gay in the UK on 12:54 - Aug 2 with 6102 views | GlasgowBlue |
| BBC2 ..is it safe to be gay in the UK on 12:53 - Aug 2 by jaykay |
i dont understand the down votes for op or being gob smacked. he was completely honest about not understanding love of the same sex (i expect he ment physical love). he wasnt hostile in anyway or used homophobic language. people dont understand alot things about peoples life styles,eg being vegan,calling themselves mummy and daddy to their pets,supporting norwich etc. expect a load of down votes |
That's how I read it. |  |
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| BBC2 ..is it safe to be gay in the UK on 13:02 - Aug 2 with 6087 views | Lord_Lucan |
| BBC2 ..is it safe to be gay in the UK on 12:53 - Aug 2 by jaykay |
i dont understand the down votes for op or being gob smacked. he was completely honest about not understanding love of the same sex (i expect he ment physical love). he wasnt hostile in anyway or used homophobic language. people dont understand alot things about peoples life styles,eg being vegan,calling themselves mummy and daddy to their pets,supporting norwich etc. expect a load of down votes |
As I commented just after the OP it plainly wasn't meant the way it might have came across but some people ignored this and thought they would rather be offended because - well, they enjoy being offended.
It was poorly worded but I don't believe there was any malice. I appreciate it's a minority but some posters can't wait to have a good old snarl and then stick the boot in.
This board is in grave danger of turning into Mumsnet 2 | |
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| BBC2 ..is it safe to be gay in the UK on 13:15 - Aug 2 with 6059 views | GavTWTD |
| BBC2 ..is it safe to be gay in the UK on 13:02 - Aug 2 by Lord_Lucan |
As I commented just after the OP it plainly wasn't meant the way it might have came across but some people ignored this and thought they would rather be offended because - well, they enjoy being offended.
It was poorly worded but I don't believe there was any malice. I appreciate it's a minority but some posters can't wait to have a good old snarl and then stick the boot in.
This board is in grave danger of turning into Mumsnet 2 |
Downvoting a post doesn't have to mean they were offended by it just that they don't like or disagree with it. I downvoted it, I wasnt offended. If you post something controversial, its quite fair to up or down vote it and its interesting to see numerically how popular that viewpoint is without each discussing it. |  |
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