| Vive le france 19:33 - May 7 with 5095 views | unstableblue |
Good on you
Look forward to our Tory back bencher oriented isolationism - woop woop |  |
| |  |
| Vive le france on 10:25 - May 8 with 2068 views | No9 |
| Vive le france on 09:59 - May 8 by WeWereZombies |
And my reply to you would be the same as to Glassers.
Not seen the final numbers but it looks like just under 35% of a 65% turnout voted for Le Pen, i.e.around 23% of those entitled to vote decided to put a cross against the name of an only slightly reformed fascist. I think this is around eleven million citizens of France. Glasgow Blue does make a valid point that this is alarming. I doubt that he clicked on the link to an Al Jazeera article that I posted last week but it made me aware that the Front Nationale have their roots in the Vichy collabaration and also that they have recently changed policy with regard to French culpability for the rounding up of Jews into French concentration camps for onward transport to Auschwitz - nothing to do with France, it was the Vichy government wot done it, guv!
And apologies to Glassers - I seemed to have invoked Godwin's Law in defending you... |
It was this time of year about 40 years ago I was working in the French city of Caen. The hotel I was staying in informed me that on the Sunday I would not be able to take lunch in the main dining room but would be accommodated in on of the prrivate dining rooms.
I asked why & was told Sunday was the day of the national Elections and the hotel was fully resereved for voters whow would take lunch after casting their vote.
From then on French politics fascinated me but I have, in reality learned very little & understood even less. |  | | |
| Vive le france on 10:28 - May 8 with 2064 views | WeWereZombies |
| Vive le france on 10:23 - May 8 by BanksterDebtSlave |
I saw a map showing the departments after the first round where Le Pen got a majority.....other than Paris it pretty much divided France in half with a line down the middle from north to south . |
I think they said on the Radio Four news last night that the Le Pen vote was mostly rural (and perhaps the majority in rural France) whilst Macron won in the cities. |  |
| |
| Vive le france on 10:37 - May 8 with 2059 views | hype313 |
|  |
| |
| Vive le france on 10:37 - May 8 with 2057 views | No9 |
It is an interesting read & ther are some truths in it but the author has overlooked some important points.
Is anyone in doubt that the reality behind this election is to divide & rule? A re-run of the 80's. | | | |
| Vive le france on 10:47 - May 8 with 2043 views | WeWereZombies |
OK, I have stopped reading this a third of the way through, three reasons:
1. Typo in the first paragraph 'Trump will life the US'. I think they mean lift but perhaps they are, in deference to that American habit of turning nouns into adjectives, using a more polite four letter word.
2. 'The Tories are deeply divided between pro- and anti-Brexit forces. Labour is divided along those same lines, and adds pro- and anti-Corbyn sentiments for good measure. Other parties don’t really matter much, but they have similar dividing lines as well.' Other parties don't really matter? Try leaving England once in a while, mate.
3. My coffee has gone cold and the garden needs watering. | |
| |
| Vive le france on 11:31 - May 8 with 2020 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Vive le france on 10:47 - May 8 by WeWereZombies |
OK, I have stopped reading this a third of the way through, three reasons:
1. Typo in the first paragraph 'Trump will life the US'. I think they mean lift but perhaps they are, in deference to that American habit of turning nouns into adjectives, using a more polite four letter word.
2. 'The Tories are deeply divided between pro- and anti-Brexit forces. Labour is divided along those same lines, and adds pro- and anti-Corbyn sentiments for good measure. Other parties don’t really matter much, but they have similar dividing lines as well.' Other parties don't really matter? Try leaving England once in a while, mate.
3. My coffee has gone cold and the garden needs watering. |
He's Dutch and has spent a great deal of time in Greece of late ! [Post edited 8 May 2017 11:31]
|  |
| |
| AND THAT IS MY POINT on 11:35 - May 8 with 2016 views | unstableblue |
| Vive le france on 08:05 - May 8 by Steve_M |
Still, Macron won by rejecting the message of the far right rather than by trying to absorb it. |
Thank you. | |
| |
Login to get fewer ads
| Vive le france on 12:19 - May 8 with 1989 views | Clapham_Junction |
Although Macron's victory is undoubtedly welcome in the short-term, in the long-term I worry if he pushes ahead with economically liberal policies, it will only end up pushing more disillusioned lower income voters towards Le Pen. |  | | |
| Vive le france on 12:30 - May 8 with 1981 views | WeWereZombies |
| Vive le france on 11:31 - May 8 by BanksterDebtSlave |
He's Dutch and has spent a great deal of time in Greece of late ! [Post edited 8 May 2017 11:31]
|
OK, I should have read to the end of the article but to ignore the effect of the SNP and the parlous state of governance (or lack of) in Northern Ireland leaves a big hole in the analysis of British politics.
I am coming round to the idea of proportional representation and coalition as a better way of directing the affairs of state (even if it gives seats to UKIP or the BNP) because this binary view of politics turns some people off, leaves others without a voice and stifles genuine political engagement.
It was quite refreshing to able post off a ballot form under the single transferable vote a few days ago, even if I do not fully understand how it works and had to read a newspaper review of the hustings to get an idea of where the seven (out of the twelve) independent candidates were coming from. | |
| |
| Vive le france on 12:38 - May 8 with 1976 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Vive le france on 12:30 - May 8 by WeWereZombies |
OK, I should have read to the end of the article but to ignore the effect of the SNP and the parlous state of governance (or lack of) in Northern Ireland leaves a big hole in the analysis of British politics.
I am coming round to the idea of proportional representation and coalition as a better way of directing the affairs of state (even if it gives seats to UKIP or the BNP) because this binary view of politics turns some people off, leaves others without a voice and stifles genuine political engagement.
It was quite refreshing to able post off a ballot form under the single transferable vote a few days ago, even if I do not fully understand how it works and had to read a newspaper review of the hustings to get an idea of where the seven (out of the twelve) independent candidates were coming from. |
I couldn't agree more. FPTP is an outdated system that leaves too many voters feeling disenfranchised. The French system is also poor. There are so many people from left to right who feel they didn't have a voice and as I said earlier, two thirds of people who voted Macron wished they could have voted for somebody else.
As for coalition politics? I floated this idea a few months back.
http://www.twtd.co.uk/forum/384850/friday-morning-thought-for-the-day/#0 |  |
| |
| Vive le france on 12:59 - May 8 with 1961 views | feelingblue |
| Vive le france on 12:38 - May 8 by GlasgowBlue |
I couldn't agree more. FPTP is an outdated system that leaves too many voters feeling disenfranchised. The French system is also poor. There are so many people from left to right who feel they didn't have a voice and as I said earlier, two thirds of people who voted Macron wished they could have voted for somebody else.
As for coalition politics? I floated this idea a few months back.
http://www.twtd.co.uk/forum/384850/friday-morning-thought-for-the-day/#0 |
On this we largely agree.
Since we lost the (vague) one nation consensus, every change of government leads to reversal or at least significant change in our approach to health, education, the economy, welfare and even planning and environmental policy.
That is why we have no sensible long-term industrial or regional policies, and is the root cause of much of our structural and economic and social problems.
It is not a coincidence that the majority of the successful economies and societies on earth have a long history of mainly coalition governments, and/or a general social and economic consensus.
As well as some form of PR, we also need a proper elected second house, with protections against it becoming a puppet of the lower house. |  | | |
| Vive le france on 13:32 - May 8 with 1941 views | Clapham_Junction |
| Vive le france on 12:38 - May 8 by GlasgowBlue |
I couldn't agree more. FPTP is an outdated system that leaves too many voters feeling disenfranchised. The French system is also poor. There are so many people from left to right who feel they didn't have a voice and as I said earlier, two thirds of people who voted Macron wished they could have voted for somebody else.
As for coalition politics? I floated this idea a few months back.
http://www.twtd.co.uk/forum/384850/friday-morning-thought-for-the-day/#0 |
I have often thought there is some merit in this, but looking at where this already happens, the results aren't entirely positive as people get frustrated that you can never vote parties out of power. Switzerland is probably the best example as the four main parties have been in coalition since WWII except a brief period in the 1950s), the permanent coalition has led to the UKIPish Swiss People's Party (who were already in the coalition) becoming far the largest party in Parliament and their obsession with immigration has meant something like 10 referendums on the subject in the last decade.
In Austria the semi-permanent coalition of the two main parties has led to the rise of the Freedom Party, although this is slightly different because smaller parties were generally excluded from the coalition.
A couple of alternative suggestions to go alongside a proportional electoral system to get the most desirable (or least objectional) government:
- Allow voters to express a preference for coalition on their ballot papers - e.g. one column for the party you want to win and then in the second you rank the parties that you want your party to go into coalition with. Using the relative strength of preferences, parties could be added together until one side emerged that had a majority of seats.
- Have a two-round election where we elect MPs first (on a proportional basis), and then if no party has a majority, the two biggest have a run-off to decide which one gets to form the government; if other parties choose to join one of the two challengers prior to the vote, then they are included in the government to be formed. If no other party joins, then the party that wins the run-off get a bonus number of seats to give them a majority. A very similar system is used in San Marino. | | | |
| Vive le france on 13:33 - May 8 with 1937 views | Coastalblue |
Le Pen is playing the longer game. By getting as far as she has this time around she has effectively now got a legitimacy that would have been seen as missing prior to these elections.
Macron however is going to face a very difficult period and will struggle to weild any real power, we may even see two or three years down the line that he's effectively over.
Sadly all this likely means that Le Pen will be far far stronger in the next elections, I wouldn't rule her out of winning an election but it was never going to be this one.
Still worrying times across Europe even after this result. |  |
| |
| Vive le france on 13:38 - May 8 with 1925 views | feelingblue |
| Vive le france on 13:33 - May 8 by Coastalblue |
Le Pen is playing the longer game. By getting as far as she has this time around she has effectively now got a legitimacy that would have been seen as missing prior to these elections.
Macron however is going to face a very difficult period and will struggle to weild any real power, we may even see two or three years down the line that he's effectively over.
Sadly all this likely means that Le Pen will be far far stronger in the next elections, I wouldn't rule her out of winning an election but it was never going to be this one.
Still worrying times across Europe even after this result. |
That is pretty much what people said when her father reached the run off in 2002. I think what happens next time will depend on many factors. This could just as easily have been the peak of her success.
However, I agree that the move to the right in many European countries, including this one, is worrying. | | | |
| Vive le france on 14:16 - May 8 with 1904 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Vive le france on 13:38 - May 8 by feelingblue |
That is pretty much what people said when her father reached the run off in 2002. I think what happens next time will depend on many factors. This could just as easily have been the peak of her success.
However, I agree that the move to the right in many European countries, including this one, is worrying. |
However, she has polled over double what her father did in 2002.
Edit. Jean-Luc Mélenchon came very close to making the second round on a platform of leaving the EU.
I wouldn't be surprised to see the far left and the far right face each other in the second round in five years. [Post edited 8 May 2017 14:22]
| |
| |
| Vive le france on 14:18 - May 8 with 1896 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Vive le france on 13:32 - May 8 by Clapham_Junction |
I have often thought there is some merit in this, but looking at where this already happens, the results aren't entirely positive as people get frustrated that you can never vote parties out of power. Switzerland is probably the best example as the four main parties have been in coalition since WWII except a brief period in the 1950s), the permanent coalition has led to the UKIPish Swiss People's Party (who were already in the coalition) becoming far the largest party in Parliament and their obsession with immigration has meant something like 10 referendums on the subject in the last decade.
In Austria the semi-permanent coalition of the two main parties has led to the rise of the Freedom Party, although this is slightly different because smaller parties were generally excluded from the coalition.
A couple of alternative suggestions to go alongside a proportional electoral system to get the most desirable (or least objectional) government:
- Allow voters to express a preference for coalition on their ballot papers - e.g. one column for the party you want to win and then in the second you rank the parties that you want your party to go into coalition with. Using the relative strength of preferences, parties could be added together until one side emerged that had a majority of seats.
- Have a two-round election where we elect MPs first (on a proportional basis), and then if no party has a majority, the two biggest have a run-off to decide which one gets to form the government; if other parties choose to join one of the two challengers prior to the vote, then they are included in the government to be formed. If no other party joins, then the party that wins the run-off get a bonus number of seats to give them a majority. A very similar system is used in San Marino. |
Showing a preference for the make up of a coalition is a good idea. A lot of Liberal voters didn't realise that Clegg had said he would talk to the largest party about forming a coalition i the run up to the 2010 election. | |
| |
| Vive le france on 14:22 - May 8 with 1891 views | WeWereZombies |
| Vive le france on 13:32 - May 8 by Clapham_Junction |
I have often thought there is some merit in this, but looking at where this already happens, the results aren't entirely positive as people get frustrated that you can never vote parties out of power. Switzerland is probably the best example as the four main parties have been in coalition since WWII except a brief period in the 1950s), the permanent coalition has led to the UKIPish Swiss People's Party (who were already in the coalition) becoming far the largest party in Parliament and their obsession with immigration has meant something like 10 referendums on the subject in the last decade.
In Austria the semi-permanent coalition of the two main parties has led to the rise of the Freedom Party, although this is slightly different because smaller parties were generally excluded from the coalition.
A couple of alternative suggestions to go alongside a proportional electoral system to get the most desirable (or least objectional) government:
- Allow voters to express a preference for coalition on their ballot papers - e.g. one column for the party you want to win and then in the second you rank the parties that you want your party to go into coalition with. Using the relative strength of preferences, parties could be added together until one side emerged that had a majority of seats.
- Have a two-round election where we elect MPs first (on a proportional basis), and then if no party has a majority, the two biggest have a run-off to decide which one gets to form the government; if other parties choose to join one of the two challengers prior to the vote, then they are included in the government to be formed. If no other party joins, then the party that wins the run-off get a bonus number of seats to give them a majority. A very similar system is used in San Marino. |
Your thoughts go some way towards addressing the worst 'game theory' aspects of proportional representation and coalitions (whoopee, we have won a seat but it means feck all if we are not the biggest party because by hook or by crook they will find a method of getting their own way).
I was surprised when I got my local council ballot paper a month or so ago to find I had twelve candidates to choose from (well, to rank in order of preference actually) and wondered if the SNP were practising a ruse that i had heard of in African politics. A party that looks like is going to get more votes than it's nearest rival but not enough to be outright winner funds a host of new entrants to the vote, thereby splitting the opposition vote in a dozen different directions and cruises into power with 45% of the vote whilst eleven or so other parties each get 5% or less and that is not enough for representation. I think we have too much scrutiny here for that to be the case (and one of the SNPs two candidates did not get in either).
And then there is the influence of the media... | |
| |
| Vive le france on 14:43 - May 8 with 1870 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Vive le france on 14:22 - May 8 by WeWereZombies |
Your thoughts go some way towards addressing the worst 'game theory' aspects of proportional representation and coalitions (whoopee, we have won a seat but it means feck all if we are not the biggest party because by hook or by crook they will find a method of getting their own way).
I was surprised when I got my local council ballot paper a month or so ago to find I had twelve candidates to choose from (well, to rank in order of preference actually) and wondered if the SNP were practising a ruse that i had heard of in African politics. A party that looks like is going to get more votes than it's nearest rival but not enough to be outright winner funds a host of new entrants to the vote, thereby splitting the opposition vote in a dozen different directions and cruises into power with 45% of the vote whilst eleven or so other parties each get 5% or less and that is not enough for representation. I think we have too much scrutiny here for that to be the case (and one of the SNPs two candidates did not get in either).
And then there is the influence of the media... |
I just heard an interesting stat. The SNP only got 32% of first preference votes last week with the Tories on 25%.
That's a kick in the teeth to to SNP in their bid for a second referendum. | |
| |
| Vive le france on 15:05 - May 8 with 1859 views | WeWereZombies |
| Vive le france on 14:43 - May 8 by GlasgowBlue |
I just heard an interesting stat. The SNP only got 32% of first preference votes last week with the Tories on 25%.
That's a kick in the teeth to to SNP in their bid for a second referendum. |
Well, and you probably won't be surprised to hear me say it, I did not vote for either and was quite disappointed the Lib Dems showed no improvement. Given Ruth Davidson's appeal to vote tactically I was hoping she meant, but could not say for fear of Central Office, to vote someone other than the Tories. In fact I was looking forward to four weeks of payback by telling you to GET BEHIND YOUR COUNTRY AND VOTE LIBERAL DEMOCRAT! Not going to happen now, is it?
And the SNP are still gaining votes so indyref2 is not off the table just yet. However I think the biggest downside in the council elections has been the reduction in women candidates - in Skye there was only one and she did not get in, similar pattern elsewhere in Highland. Strange when you consider, regardless of allegiance, the successful leaders of the SNP, Conservative and Labour parties. | |
| |
| |
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
