| One thing that's really bugged me about the left wing 20:58 - Jan 24 with 4405 views | Terra_Farma |
Communism. |  | | |  |
| One thing that's really bugged me about the left wing on 22:45 - Jan 24 with 1422 views | Terra_Farma |
| One thing that's really bugged me about the left wing on 22:13 - Jan 24 by footers |
Just playing devil's avocado, but can you put a rough guesstimate on the billions capitalism has killed?
No rush. |
I don't know footers, I don't think anyone has the answer to your question.
Capitalism has created many beasts and not near enough philanthropists. | | | |
| One thing that's really bugged me about the left wing on 22:52 - Jan 24 with 1404 views | WeWereZombies |
| One thing that's really bugged me about the left wing on 22:12 - Jan 24 by Guthrum |
It wasn't a cold, deliberate extermination policy in the same way as the Holocaust. Mao merely didn't care if it was a side effect of what he wanted to do (e.g. take an entire province's food supplies for use elsewhere). Much the same as Stalin with the Holodomor. No less evil, but no more so, either.
If damage and deaths are to be a measure of evil, then the time available to perpetrate them is a significant factor. How many more would Hitler have killed if he'd lasted over a decade longer? |
The middle of your first paragraph reminds me of the West Bengal famine of the early 1940s, now who was responsible for that?
See also origin of modern concentration camps... |  |
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| One thing that's really bugged me about the left wing on 22:54 - Jan 24 with 1403 views | jeera |
| One thing that's really bugged me about the left wing on 22:42 - Jan 24 by mos |
Pol Pot’s leadership of the Khmer Rouge was clearly dreadful, with the wiping out of 1/3rd of the population, along with the 20-25 million people killed under Stalin’s Soviet Union due to his Five Year Plans to industrialise the Soviet Union, and inducing the Great Terror... Although communism is built in the roots of worker rights and equality, industry was still put before the people, as made clear by the famines in the Soviet Union.
There were, as you said, anti-semitic elements to the founding of the Nazi party, but it was really the workers’ socialism elements that founded the Nazis early beginnings. I think it was only when Hitler became chancellor and pursued his policy of Gleichschaltung that Germany became a fascist state. Many people joined the Nazi party due to their promising work schemes, combatting of communists in the streets and powerful propaganda that motivated and gave belief to Germans that Hitler could save Germany from the economic crisis that they had found themselves in from the Wall St Crash of 1929. It is important to add that Hitler’s violent attempt at a revolt in 1923, the ‘Beer Hall Putsch’, failed to gain any traction and was crushed quickly, suggesting that his violent ways did not generate enough support and that it was only until the economic depression where people seek radical movements for what they can bring for them.
But I am sure Hitler held the views he is known for even in the early 1920s, my argument is that the Nazi party was not entirely founded upon anti-semitism.
It’s all up for interpretation, but interestingly it does raise and support the horseshoe political spectrum theory, where far-right and far-left idealogies are not as far as they seem on a linear spectrum, both sharing similar traits in the form of authoritarianism rule and totalitarianism. Mussolini began his political career as a Socialist, working for the socialist newspaper ‘Avanti!’ as an editor, yet became the first Fascist leader of the modern world! |
"Although communism is built in the roots of worker rights and equality, industry was still put before the people, as made clear by the famines in the Soviet Union."
I would argue that right there is the difference between Communism and Socialism:
That one isn't necessarily about individual rights per se, but is a method of [proposed] common interest via a one size fits all system imposed from the top.
The other is a democratically centered ideal, driven from the bottom. Not only about workers' rights, but also fairness and equality. |  |
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| One thing that's really bugged me about the left wing on 22:56 - Jan 24 with 1399 views | footers |
| One thing that's really bugged me about the left wing on 22:45 - Jan 24 by Terra_Farma |
I don't know footers, I don't think anyone has the answer to your question.
Capitalism has created many beasts and not near enough philanthropists. |
Unfortunately most philanthropists are simply giving back a little from something they've taken far more from.
If we are questioning systems, then maybe we should start with the one in which we currently live.
"It's easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism." |  |
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| One thing that's really bugged me about the left wing on 22:57 - Jan 24 with 1395 views | Terra_Farma |
| One thing that's really bugged me about the left wing on 22:12 - Jan 24 by Guthrum |
It wasn't a cold, deliberate extermination policy in the same way as the Holocaust. Mao merely didn't care if it was a side effect of what he wanted to do (e.g. take an entire province's food supplies for use elsewhere). Much the same as Stalin with the Holodomor. No less evil, but no more so, either.
If damage and deaths are to be a measure of evil, then the time available to perpetrate them is a significant factor. How many more would Hitler have killed if he'd lasted over a decade longer? |
I agree that extermination was the primary objective of Hitler, he wanted to rid Germany as quickly as "humanly" possible of the Jews.
The difference is, Hitler knew that he had violated the treaty of versailles and had neighboring countries breathing down his neck, hence his rapid "cleansing".
In contrast, these Communist leaders had the all the time in the world to execute, mane and starve their own people.
Both are truly as disgusting as the other. | | | |
| One thing that's really bugged me about the left wing on 23:02 - Jan 24 with 1389 views | Guthrum |
| One thing that's really bugged me about the left wing on 22:42 - Jan 24 by mos |
Pol Pot’s leadership of the Khmer Rouge was clearly dreadful, with the wiping out of 1/3rd of the population, along with the 20-25 million people killed under Stalin’s Soviet Union due to his Five Year Plans to industrialise the Soviet Union, and inducing the Great Terror... Although communism is built in the roots of worker rights and equality, industry was still put before the people, as made clear by the famines in the Soviet Union.
There were, as you said, anti-semitic elements to the founding of the Nazi party, but it was really the workers’ socialism elements that founded the Nazis early beginnings. I think it was only when Hitler became chancellor and pursued his policy of Gleichschaltung that Germany became a fascist state. Many people joined the Nazi party due to their promising work schemes, combatting of communists in the streets and powerful propaganda that motivated and gave belief to Germans that Hitler could save Germany from the economic crisis that they had found themselves in from the Wall St Crash of 1929. It is important to add that Hitler’s violent attempt at a revolt in 1923, the ‘Beer Hall Putsch’, failed to gain any traction and was crushed quickly, suggesting that his violent ways did not generate enough support and that it was only until the economic depression where people seek radical movements for what they can bring for them.
But I am sure Hitler held the views he is known for even in the early 1920s, my argument is that the Nazi party was not entirely founded upon anti-semitism.
It’s all up for interpretation, but interestingly it does raise and support the horseshoe political spectrum theory, where far-right and far-left idealogies are not as far as they seem on a linear spectrum, both sharing similar traits in the form of authoritarianism rule and totalitarianism. Mussolini began his political career as a Socialist, working for the socialist newspaper ‘Avanti!’ as an editor, yet became the first Fascist leader of the modern world! |
The Nazi Party was founded (as the German Workers Party) by members of the Thule Society, a group of German ultra-nationalists with a history of virulently anti-Jewish and anti-Marxist views and other similar fellow-travellers, such as Anton Drexler. Hitler, who joined seven months* later, wrote Mein Kampf, his manifesto for the party, in 1924 while in prison after the Beer Hall Putsch. A manifesto centered on German nationalism and racialist theory.
Regarding the Putsch, it was by no means a unique incident in Germany in the years after the war. There were attempted coups and counter coups going off all the time. Practically a civil war - especially in Bavaria, which had attempted to break away from the rest of Germany. Hitler's attempt is only really significant in light of his later prominence (and the brief involvement of General Ludendorff).
There were socialists in the Nazi party, the Strasserists and the Berlin faction. But they were sidelined and Gregor Strasser himself later murdered. It was a workers' organisation, in that it proclaimed a mission to improve their lot and dismantle capitalism (not that anything like the latter was ever done in practice; Hitler got a lot of financial support from wealthy German industrialists).
Mussolini's Fascism was much more genuinely socialist and quite a different beast from Nazism. Not specifically anti-Jewish, for a start. Indeed, there is a lot of confusion in the terminology nowadays.
* I misremembered, it wasn't as long as a year. Altho there were precursor groups before the DAP was formally started. [Post edited 24 Jan 2020 23:21]
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| One thing that's really bugged me about the left wing on 23:03 - Jan 24 with 1378 views | jeera |
| One thing that's really bugged me about the left wing on 22:57 - Jan 24 by Terra_Farma |
I agree that extermination was the primary objective of Hitler, he wanted to rid Germany as quickly as "humanly" possible of the Jews.
The difference is, Hitler knew that he had violated the treaty of versailles and had neighboring countries breathing down his neck, hence his rapid "cleansing".
In contrast, these Communist leaders had the all the time in the world to execute, mane and starve their own people.
Both are truly as disgusting as the other. |
Again, the difference is a system that was proposed to create equality and fairness.
And the same system in name only that has been hijacked and used as an oppressive and abusive structure by dictators.
We can call ourselves anything we like, but ultimately it's the actions that will provide definition. | |
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| One thing that's really bugged me about the left wing on 23:04 - Jan 24 with 1373 views | Terra_Farma |
| One thing that's really bugged me about the left wing on 23:03 - Jan 24 by jeera |
Again, the difference is a system that was proposed to create equality and fairness.
And the same system in name only that has been hijacked and used as an oppressive and abusive structure by dictators.
We can call ourselves anything we like, but ultimately it's the actions that will provide definition. |
GROUP HUG
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| One thing that's really bugged me about the left wing on 23:05 - Jan 24 with 1374 views | mos |
| One thing that's really bugged me about the left wing on 22:54 - Jan 24 by jeera |
"Although communism is built in the roots of worker rights and equality, industry was still put before the people, as made clear by the famines in the Soviet Union."
I would argue that right there is the difference between Communism and Socialism:
That one isn't necessarily about individual rights per se, but is a method of [proposed] common interest via a one size fits all system imposed from the top.
The other is a democratically centered ideal, driven from the bottom. Not only about workers' rights, but also fairness and equality. |
I think socialism would agree with you.
A major difference between socialism and communism, other than the classic “well socialism is just a less intense version of communism” is that a socialist would try and secure equality and greater worker rights through democratic means by forcing change through parliament and legislation rather than a (violent) revolutionary uprising that a communist would believe in. |  |
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| One thing that's really bugged me about the left wing on 23:09 - Jan 24 with 1362 views | Guthrum |
| One thing that's really bugged me about the left wing on 22:56 - Jan 24 by footers |
Unfortunately most philanthropists are simply giving back a little from something they've taken far more from.
If we are questioning systems, then maybe we should start with the one in which we currently live.
"It's easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism." |
That's partly because capitalism, in its most basic form, is the root of all trade and commerce. The use of funds to start businesses, produce goods or services and sell them, locally or elsewhere, to make a profit, providing employment as a by-product. Very difficult to get away from that model, which is as old as human civilisation.
It's how capitalism is applied, who drives it and how the benefits are distributed which become the moot points. Historically, that has always veered between laissez faire and government control. Currently, the balance is tipped rather a long way towards the former. | |
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| One thing that's really bugged me about the left wing on 23:16 - Jan 24 with 1349 views | footers |
| One thing that's really bugged me about the left wing on 23:04 - Jan 24 by Terra_Farma |
GROUP HUG
X |
You're eating at the adults' table but eating chicken nuggets. Well done. | |
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| One thing that's really bugged me about the left wing on 23:16 - Jan 24 with 1348 views | Guthrum |
| One thing that's really bugged me about the left wing on 22:57 - Jan 24 by Terra_Farma |
I agree that extermination was the primary objective of Hitler, he wanted to rid Germany as quickly as "humanly" possible of the Jews.
The difference is, Hitler knew that he had violated the treaty of versailles and had neighboring countries breathing down his neck, hence his rapid "cleansing".
In contrast, these Communist leaders had the all the time in the world to execute, mane and starve their own people.
Both are truly as disgusting as the other. |
Yes, they absolutely are as bad as each other. The political creed is almost irrelevant when it comes to such perpetrators of evil.
Hitler's long term planning was to be a lot more thorough than was possible during wartime. Given the time and space, he would have killed more, primarily slavs in Russia and Eastern Europe. | |
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| One thing that's really bugged me about the left wing on 23:23 - Jan 24 with 1339 views | footers |
| One thing that's really bugged me about the left wing on 23:09 - Jan 24 by Guthrum |
That's partly because capitalism, in its most basic form, is the root of all trade and commerce. The use of funds to start businesses, produce goods or services and sell them, locally or elsewhere, to make a profit, providing employment as a by-product. Very difficult to get away from that model, which is as old as human civilisation.
It's how capitalism is applied, who drives it and how the benefits are distributed which become the moot points. Historically, that has always veered between laissez faire and government control. Currently, the balance is tipped rather a long way towards the former. |
It's also true that Marx's works were critiques of and yet still based in capitalist theory... Whether a step beyond that can ever be reached, I dunno.
It may be the only way we as a species have ever been able to effectively articulate power and value in transactive terms, but if we're able to dream up life on other planets I can't see why a change in value-exchange (if we can even call it that) is that unrealistic at some point.
Brutal and effective as it is, capitalism still has some major downsides for humanity. But again, a different reality is probably a pipedream. | |
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| One thing that's really bugged me about the left wing on 23:33 - Jan 24 with 1329 views | Guthrum |
| One thing that's really bugged me about the left wing on 23:23 - Jan 24 by footers |
It's also true that Marx's works were critiques of and yet still based in capitalist theory... Whether a step beyond that can ever be reached, I dunno.
It may be the only way we as a species have ever been able to effectively articulate power and value in transactive terms, but if we're able to dream up life on other planets I can't see why a change in value-exchange (if we can even call it that) is that unrealistic at some point.
Brutal and effective as it is, capitalism still has some major downsides for humanity. But again, a different reality is probably a pipedream. |
The trickiest issue is what to replace it with. How else do we run a non-subsistence society where people have skills and time which they exchange with others to meet their own needs? Money is only a form of deferred, more portable and transferrable barter.
Most theories are really only looking to moderate and reorganise capitalism, rather than genuine radical replacements.
It has downsides as a venue for unbridled greed and aquisitiveness, but has also provided considerable - and sometimes very rapid - improvements for the human race. The biggest curse is uneven distribution of wealth, both within and between cultures. | |
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| One thing that's really bugged me about the left wing on 23:38 - Jan 24 with 1326 views | jeera |
| One thing that's really bugged me about the left wing on 23:33 - Jan 24 by Guthrum |
The trickiest issue is what to replace it with. How else do we run a non-subsistence society where people have skills and time which they exchange with others to meet their own needs? Money is only a form of deferred, more portable and transferrable barter.
Most theories are really only looking to moderate and reorganise capitalism, rather than genuine radical replacements.
It has downsides as a venue for unbridled greed and aquisitiveness, but has also provided considerable - and sometimes very rapid - improvements for the human race. The biggest curse is uneven distribution of wealth, both within and between cultures. |
"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs"
Never gonna happen. Not here at least.
But I do like the concept and if society had to reboot from nothing, that wouldn't be a terrible place to start. | |
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| One thing that's really bugged me about the left wing on 23:49 - Jan 24 with 1311 views | Guthrum |
| One thing that's really bugged me about the left wing on 23:38 - Jan 24 by jeera |
"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs"
Never gonna happen. Not here at least.
But I do like the concept and if society had to reboot from nothing, that wouldn't be a terrible place to start. |
An expression of that would be the idea of a Universal Basic Income, much talked of in recent years. Altho that, in itself, is merely a wealth distribution framework put onto the underlying capitalist structure.
However, by decoupling the need to find full-time jobs for everyone, in an era when mechanisation has drastically reduced the demand for human labour, it reduces the ill effects of the latter. | |
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| One thing that's really bugged me about the left wing on 23:50 - Jan 24 with 1309 views | Terra_Farma |
| One thing that's really bugged me about the left wing on 23:16 - Jan 24 by footers |
You're eating at the adults' table but eating chicken nuggets. Well done. |
McNuggets
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| One thing that's really bugged me about the left wing on 00:14 - Jan 25 with 1294 views | factual_blue |
| One thing that's really bugged me about the left wing on 22:18 - Jan 24 by jeera |
Already looking forward to your paper on it.
Although there is more to Communism than simply studying Marx and Engels and even Lenin, these will no doubt be works you are more than familiar with.
I'm hoping you can fill in the gaps for me and spell out the nuances when it comes to Communism, Marxism and Socialism, as well as the issues you have with each. |
I imagine you're right about him having issues. |  |
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| One thing that's really bugged me about the left wing on 00:16 - Jan 25 with 1294 views | jeera |
| One thing that's really bugged me about the left wing on 00:14 - Jan 25 by factual_blue |
I imagine you're right about him having issues. |
Some of us are trying to build bridges.
Anyways, what's the Scrabble score on Pykkerell or however it's spelt. | |
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| One thing that's really bugged me about the left wing on 00:27 - Jan 25 with 1281 views | Swansea_Blue |
This reminds me of the Keave v Jewell threads we used to have. TWTD. |  |
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| One thing that's really bugged me about the left wing on 00:34 - Jan 25 with 1267 views | factual_blue |
| One thing that's really bugged me about the left wing on 00:16 - Jan 25 by jeera |
Some of us are trying to build bridges.
Anyways, what's the Scrabble score on Pykkerell or however it's spelt. |
You can't make 'Pykkerell ' without a blank letter tile as there's only one 'k' in the English Scrabble set.
The Afrikaans version, however, has three 'k' tiles, and the Basque version five.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrabble_letter_distributions#English | |
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| One thing that's really bugged me about the left wing on 00:36 - Jan 25 with 1265 views | factual_blue |
| One thing that's really bugged me about the left wing on 00:27 - Jan 25 by Swansea_Blue |
This reminds me of the Keave v Jewell threads we used to have. TWTD. |
Were Pablo's grandparents Republicans or Franco-ists? | |
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| One thing that's really bugged me about the left wing on 00:37 - Jan 25 with 1265 views | jeera |
Well I'm not playing you at Scrabble then.
I'll give you a game of Chess one afternoon in the Swan instead. | |
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| One thing that's really bugged me about the left wing on 00:38 - Jan 25 with 1263 views | factual_blue |
| One thing that's really bugged me about the left wing on 00:37 - Jan 25 by jeera |
Well I'm not playing you at Scrabble then.
I'll give you a game of Chess one afternoon in the Swan instead. |
I'm rubbish at chess. No attention span. | |
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| One thing that's really bugged me about the left wing on 00:42 - Jan 25 with 1258 views | jeera |
| One thing that's really bugged me about the left wing on 00:38 - Jan 25 by factual_blue |
I'm rubbish at chess. No attention span. |
Well that should suit both o....
Ooh something shiny. | |
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