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5G makes surveillance so much easier for China. See here for example: https://www.newyorker.com/news/annals-of-communications/the-terrifying-potential "5G will catalogue exactly where someone has come from, where they are going, and what they are doing. “To give one made-up example,” Steve Bellovin, a computer-science professor at Columbia University, told the Wall Street Journal, “might a pollution sensor detect cigarette smoke or vaping, while a Bluetooth receiver picks up the identities of nearby phones? Insurance companies might be interested.” Paired with facial recognition and artificial intelligence, the data streams and location capabilities of 5G will make anonymity a historical artifact.
In China, which has installed three hundred and fifty thousand 5G relays–about ten times more than the United States–enhanced geolocation, coupled with an expansive network of surveillance cameras, each equipped with facial-recognition technology, has enabled authorities to track and subordinate the country’s eleven million Uighur Muslims. According to the Times, “the practice makes China a pioneer in applying next-generation technology to watch its people, potentially ushering in a new era of automated racism.”
And here (check out the snitching powers of 5G)... China Telecom celebrates the state surveillance potential of 5G: https://telecoms.com/501785/china-telecom-celebrates-the-state-surveillance-pote "Facial recognition technology is a big deal in China, with Beijing being at the forefront of a social credit system that promises 1984-style constant surveillance coupled with a system of incentives and punishments apparently designed to control almost every aspect of a person’s life. While there are presumably millions of CCTV cameras around the country to support this initiatives, there are many more smartphone cameras.
It’s perfectly conceivable that the social credit system will one day reward smartphone owners who inform on their fellow citizens, which in turn would massively increase the reach and efficiency of the surveillance state. No doubt the speed and low latency of 5G will augment this whole process, but it seems unwise for any individual telecoms company to align itself so closely to such a dystopian scheme."
It's a ridiculous move from China and will mean an increase in tensions with the US who have already said they will withdraw HK favourable trading terms and apply the Chinese ones to HK.
Protests will increase to the point where it's possible the army might get involved. It's a mess entirely of China's own making.
As you say, along with the horrific treatment of the Uighurs and the slow initial response internally to C19 they aren't doing much to change the opinions of them in the west. The whole strategy (both economic and political) the west has with regards to China needs to change.
Not sure that India and China will kick-off, it's a no-win fight for both sides. China also making eyes are parts of Siberia which it feels historically should be part of China but they are't silly enough to try anything with the Russians.
SB
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Meanwhile China breaches international treaties to rescind Hong Kong's autonomy on 10:21 - May 28 with 2738 views
Meanwhile China breaches international treaties to rescind Hong Kong's autonomy on 10:18 - May 28 by midastouch
5G makes surveillance so much easier for China. See here for example: https://www.newyorker.com/news/annals-of-communications/the-terrifying-potential "5G will catalogue exactly where someone has come from, where they are going, and what they are doing. “To give one made-up example,” Steve Bellovin, a computer-science professor at Columbia University, told the Wall Street Journal, “might a pollution sensor detect cigarette smoke or vaping, while a Bluetooth receiver picks up the identities of nearby phones? Insurance companies might be interested.” Paired with facial recognition and artificial intelligence, the data streams and location capabilities of 5G will make anonymity a historical artifact.
In China, which has installed three hundred and fifty thousand 5G relays–about ten times more than the United States–enhanced geolocation, coupled with an expansive network of surveillance cameras, each equipped with facial-recognition technology, has enabled authorities to track and subordinate the country’s eleven million Uighur Muslims. According to the Times, “the practice makes China a pioneer in applying next-generation technology to watch its people, potentially ushering in a new era of automated racism.”
And here (check out the snitching powers of 5G)... China Telecom celebrates the state surveillance potential of 5G: https://telecoms.com/501785/china-telecom-celebrates-the-state-surveillance-pote "Facial recognition technology is a big deal in China, with Beijing being at the forefront of a social credit system that promises 1984-style constant surveillance coupled with a system of incentives and punishments apparently designed to control almost every aspect of a person’s life. While there are presumably millions of CCTV cameras around the country to support this initiatives, there are many more smartphone cameras.
It’s perfectly conceivable that the social credit system will one day reward smartphone owners who inform on their fellow citizens, which in turn would massively increase the reach and efficiency of the surveillance state. No doubt the speed and low latency of 5G will augment this whole process, but it seems unwise for any individual telecoms company to align itself so closely to such a dystopian scheme."
None of that is specific to 5G and can all be done with existing networks if that is the aim. I don't think we need this thread turned into another 5G monster.
Maybe make another one if you want to discuss that?
SB
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Meanwhile China breaches international treaties to rescind Hong Kong's autonomy on 10:24 - May 28 with 2732 views
Meanwhile China breaches international treaties to rescind Hong Kong's autonomy on 10:18 - May 28 by midastouch
5G makes surveillance so much easier for China. See here for example: https://www.newyorker.com/news/annals-of-communications/the-terrifying-potential "5G will catalogue exactly where someone has come from, where they are going, and what they are doing. “To give one made-up example,” Steve Bellovin, a computer-science professor at Columbia University, told the Wall Street Journal, “might a pollution sensor detect cigarette smoke or vaping, while a Bluetooth receiver picks up the identities of nearby phones? Insurance companies might be interested.” Paired with facial recognition and artificial intelligence, the data streams and location capabilities of 5G will make anonymity a historical artifact.
In China, which has installed three hundred and fifty thousand 5G relays–about ten times more than the United States–enhanced geolocation, coupled with an expansive network of surveillance cameras, each equipped with facial-recognition technology, has enabled authorities to track and subordinate the country’s eleven million Uighur Muslims. According to the Times, “the practice makes China a pioneer in applying next-generation technology to watch its people, potentially ushering in a new era of automated racism.”
And here (check out the snitching powers of 5G)... China Telecom celebrates the state surveillance potential of 5G: https://telecoms.com/501785/china-telecom-celebrates-the-state-surveillance-pote "Facial recognition technology is a big deal in China, with Beijing being at the forefront of a social credit system that promises 1984-style constant surveillance coupled with a system of incentives and punishments apparently designed to control almost every aspect of a person’s life. While there are presumably millions of CCTV cameras around the country to support this initiatives, there are many more smartphone cameras.
It’s perfectly conceivable that the social credit system will one day reward smartphone owners who inform on their fellow citizens, which in turn would massively increase the reach and efficiency of the surveillance state. No doubt the speed and low latency of 5G will augment this whole process, but it seems unwise for any individual telecoms company to align itself so closely to such a dystopian scheme."
That is just stuff which they have used the extra available bandwidth of 5G to layer into their systems. They don't need to be there, are reasonably detectable (there are clever people dedicated to such things) and can be countered if used as a hostile act (e.g. spying).
Moreover, it wouldn't be of any great use to the Chinese to know where all the phone users in the UK are at any given time. They'd have to discover which specific phones to track, which requires a lot more espionage. In any case, it can already be done with the existing technology.
There's plenty of videos circulating of troops fighting in contested border regions. See here for example:
And this one is from 2017, so it's been bubbling for a while:
The concern will be if the fighting escalates from fists (as is has been so far) to bullets. As SB says it's a no win but all you need is a hot head to pull a trigger and things could quickly spiral out of control. Let's hope both sides ultimately see sense as the world has enough big problems already.
Meanwhile China breaches international treaties to rescind Hong Kong's autonomy on 10:21 - May 28 by StokieBlue
None of that is specific to 5G and can all be done with existing networks if that is the aim. I don't think we need this thread turned into another 5G monster.
Maybe make another one if you want to discuss that?
SB
Indeed, the United Kingdom's enthusiastic use of CCTV a couple of decades ago was only surpassed by the Czech Republic if we want to look for comparisons earlier than Fifth Generation mobile technology. It might sound like the argument that the gun lobby make (people kill people etc., and they do have a point) but the reasons for excessive surveillance lie deeper than the technology used and have their foundation in culture.
Meanwhile China breaches international treaties to rescind Hong Kong's autonomy on 10:39 - May 28 by midastouch
There's plenty of videos circulating of troops fighting in contested border regions. See here for example:
And this one is from 2017, so it's been bubbling for a while:
The concern will be if the fighting escalates from fists (as is has been so far) to bullets. As SB says it's a no win but all you need is a hot head to pull a trigger and things could quickly spiral out of control. Let's hope both sides ultimately see sense as the world has enough big problems already.
There has been more serious fighting there in the past, to the extent of open warfare in 1962.
Meanwhile China breaches international treaties to rescind Hong Kong's autonomy on 10:49 - May 28 by Guthrum
Nobody could afford the stuff unless we paid our workers at Chinese rates (well below the UK cost of living).
Or we could just buy less stuff, have it made reliably so that it has less destructive impact on our environment and, sorry Newcy, we spend less on carting stuff around from place to place.
Meanwhile China breaches international treaties to rescind Hong Kong's autonomy on 10:46 - May 28 by StokieBlue
That was a different world though, both China and Indian were not nuclear powers then.
SB
Although, according to a display I saw at the A-bomb museum in Nagasaki back in January, neither are that much of a nuclear power in game theory terms today either. For all China's economic power (more fragile now than it was even four months ago) it's nuclear arsenal it not much more than Britain or France, i.e. together we out shoot China. You wouldn't want to prompt India or China to use their deterrent but if it came to a face down then neither nation has an ace in their hand.
Meanwhile China breaches international treaties to rescind Hong Kong's autonomy on 10:46 - May 28 by StokieBlue
That was a different world though, both China and Indian were not nuclear powers then.
SB
Doesn't make a lot of difference. They both have huge conventional forces and would be unlikely to threaten nuclear war over a stretch of sparsely populated and extremely mountainous border.
Very difficult terrain to fight and resupply over, too.
Meanwhile China breaches international treaties to rescind Hong Kong's autonomy on 10:21 - May 28 by StokieBlue
None of that is specific to 5G and can all be done with existing networks if that is the aim. I don't think we need this thread turned into another 5G monster.
Maybe make another one if you want to discuss that?
SB
Fair enough. I'm in no mood for lighting a fire to a monster thread in any case right now as have a lot on my plate so I wouldn't be able to fight my corner very well (so we'll leave that for another day). I need to do more research on 5G in any case.
I do however grow more and more suspicious of China in a multitude of ways. They are becoming increasingly emboldened on the international stage and their geopolitics grows ever more strident with each passing year.
Meanwhile China breaches international treaties to rescind Hong Kong's autonomy on 10:07 - May 28 by floridaboy
Agree! Shame we cant start making our own stuff so not so reliant on China. Would maybe get the economy going and get people off the dole.
Wont happen though unfortunately!!
We can't pick our own fruit, let alone work year in and year out producing cheap enough goods.
I think consuming less is the real key. And maybe paying more for what we do consume too. That *may* have the effect of shifting manufacturing jobs back to the developed worlds and developing countries less set up for the cheapest, most unsustainable mass production.
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Meanwhile China breaches international treaties to rescind Hong Kong's autonomy on 11:06 - May 28 with 2628 views
Meanwhile China breaches international treaties to rescind Hong Kong's autonomy on 10:51 - May 28 by WeWereZombies
Or we could just buy less stuff, have it made reliably so that it has less destructive impact on our environment and, sorry Newcy, we spend less on carting stuff around from place to place.
Indeed. But that is the standard of living to which we have become accustomed. Gone are the days when many people didn't even have a single TV in the house, or could only afford a rental.
Meanwhile China breaches international treaties to rescind Hong Kong's autonomy on 11:01 - May 28 by midastouch
Fair enough. I'm in no mood for lighting a fire to a monster thread in any case right now as have a lot on my plate so I wouldn't be able to fight my corner very well (so we'll leave that for another day). I need to do more research on 5G in any case.
I do however grow more and more suspicious of China in a multitude of ways. They are becoming increasingly emboldened on the international stage and their geopolitics grows ever more strident with each passing year.
Not sure anybody would dispute your suspicions of China. They are hugely expansionist, to some extent in territory, but vastly more so in terms of influence.
Mind you, that was something started decades ago by Mao. Just nowadays they have the economic muscle to back it up.
Meanwhile China breaches international treaties to rescind Hong Kong's autonomy on 10:56 - May 28 by WeWereZombies
Although, according to a display I saw at the A-bomb museum in Nagasaki back in January, neither are that much of a nuclear power in game theory terms today either. For all China's economic power (more fragile now than it was even four months ago) it's nuclear arsenal it not much more than Britain or France, i.e. together we out shoot China. You wouldn't want to prompt India or China to use their deterrent but if it came to a face down then neither nation has an ace in their hand.
They have enough to threaten each other which is more likely than them threatening the UK or France.
3 missiles each way would be 1/4 billion people dead.
Still pretty unlikely though as has been pointed out.
SB
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Meanwhile China breaches international treaties to rescind Hong Kong's autonomy on 11:12 - May 28 with 2610 views
Meanwhile China breaches international treaties to rescind Hong Kong's autonomy on 10:57 - May 28 by Guthrum
Doesn't make a lot of difference. They both have huge conventional forces and would be unlikely to threaten nuclear war over a stretch of sparsely populated and extremely mountainous border.
Very difficult terrain to fight and resupply over, too.
Indeed.
Just pointing out it's another factor that wasn't there in 1962 and thus a possible risk which wasn't there when they last had open warfare.
SB
Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula
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Meanwhile China breaches international treaties to rescind Hong Kong's autonomy on 11:13 - May 28 with 2609 views
Meanwhile China breaches international treaties to rescind Hong Kong's autonomy on 11:09 - May 28 by Guthrum
Not sure anybody would dispute your suspicions of China. They are hugely expansionist, to some extent in territory, but vastly more so in terms of influence.
Mind you, that was something started decades ago by Mao. Just nowadays they have the economic muscle to back it up.
And their model for expansion (i.e. infrastructure building in exchange for access to key resources etc.) is difficult for less advanced and indebted countries to resist. It seems a far better model for winning heart and minds than sending in B52 bombers from a great height!
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