| Dishonest to the last 08:15 - Sep 6 with 3664 views | ZXBlue |
Or perhaps just so painfully lacking in objectivity and self awareness, that the difference becomes meaningless.
""We are one whole and entire United Kingdom", Johnson says, making the case for the union.
He adds he believes the "union is so strong that those that want to break it up will keep trying, but they will never, ever succeed"
This would be a union on the point of destruction as a result of the Bre4xit project, and the dishonest dealings on the NI protocol and borders (which were always a fundamental issue without a solution, but were deliberately ignored and washed over by Johnson) |  | | |  |
| Dishonest to the last on 21:59 - Sep 7 with 713 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Dishonest to the last on 21:48 - Sep 7 by Darth_Koont |
You’re getting every bit as bad as your chums at ducking and weaving. |
I gave up waiting for a link to a credible economic analysis.
Or even acknowledgment that outside 2 economic political unions would be years of hardship. Scotland hasn’t applied for EU membership, might have it blocked by current members with independent movements, and don’t meet the economic criteria. If successful, they will be at the back of the queue behind current accession candidates, appetite for expansion is limited given the circumstances, and the process is lengthy. It could feasibly be 20 years. | | | |
| Dishonest to the last on 22:50 - Sep 7 with 677 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Dishonest to the last on 21:59 - Sep 7 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
I gave up waiting for a link to a credible economic analysis.
Or even acknowledgment that outside 2 economic political unions would be years of hardship. Scotland hasn’t applied for EU membership, might have it blocked by current members with independent movements, and don’t meet the economic criteria. If successful, they will be at the back of the queue behind current accession candidates, appetite for expansion is limited given the circumstances, and the process is lengthy. It could feasibly be 20 years. |
Yeah, tough one. Fundamentally, there's no reason Scotland or Wales couldn't go alone. In terms of size they'd be far from the smallest independent, successful nations if they did. There's a lot of IFs and BUTs though, a lot to disentangle with England, and uncertainties over future EU relationships (or any other alliances).
I'd be happy with with independence for both, but a re-negotiated 'union' with each as equal partners. So we could maintain open borders, freedom of movement and free trade, etc., yet give each nation the opportunity to shape their own future (that would free England too btw, as they seem to want to go in a different direction to the rest of the UK nations). A confident England should allow that.
What we have now is akin to an abusive relationship. Yes, we get money back (much of which we contributed in the first place though taxes, or through activity/resources owned by the devolved nations that are not included in the Barnet calculation) but it's used to control. Levelling up is a case in point. It used to be the case that the EU dealt directly with the devolved parliaments - besides replacing only a fraction of the EU money lost, Westminster has now cut the devolved parliaments out of the loop completely. That's a political decision to blunt influence. It's not healthy behaviour.
PS. apologies to NI for not including them; similar arguments but just turbo charged and I can't do them justice. The way Westminster has behaved over the NI protocol (and now appointing another senior ERGer to NI Sec) shows their utter contempt for the people of N. Ireland and Ireland too. [Post edited 7 Sep 2022 23:03]
|  |
| |
| Dishonest to the last on 08:32 - Sep 8 with 626 views | Darth_Koont |
| Dishonest to the last on 21:59 - Sep 7 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
I gave up waiting for a link to a credible economic analysis.
Or even acknowledgment that outside 2 economic political unions would be years of hardship. Scotland hasn’t applied for EU membership, might have it blocked by current members with independent movements, and don’t meet the economic criteria. If successful, they will be at the back of the queue behind current accession candidates, appetite for expansion is limited given the circumstances, and the process is lengthy. It could feasibly be 20 years. |
Denmark is your credible economic analysis. Or Ireland. Or even Norway if it’s just about single market access.
But you’ve ducked that from the start. As you ducked me saying that of course the short term costs would be high but long term the benefits of being a proper nation and economy like all our neighbours would make it easily worthwhile.
Especially given the alternative of continuing to lose even more ground economically and socially to those neighbours as part of a dysfunctional UK that’s hoovering money, resources and opportunities up and away from the majority and from the regions themselves.
The upside for Scotland is to increase their GDP by several tens of billions and get somewhat closer to our neighbours (who don’t even have the same natural and human resources Scotland has).
I’m still waiting for the credible analysis that says that’s not possible and why. But I think by now you’ve proved you can only duck around on this. [Post edited 8 Sep 2022 8:33]
|  |
| |
| Dishonest to the last on 08:39 - Sep 8 with 620 views | giant_stow |
| Dishonest to the last on 21:40 - Sep 7 by Darth_Koont |
You guys are running on empty and we’re still on the first page?
Jeez. |
People really are saying this! I think it would be a mean thing to do personally... like insisting a child who's left home, come back because you don't believe in them. They have to make their own mistakes.
Personally, I reckon that in time, a totally independent Scotland would eventually do ok, but only after a horrible slog and much social strife for many years. I guess the hard core nationalists could put up with that, but what about everyone else? |  |
| |
| Dishonest to the last on 08:50 - Sep 8 with 604 views | Darth_Koont |
| Dishonest to the last on 22:50 - Sep 7 by Swansea_Blue |
Yeah, tough one. Fundamentally, there's no reason Scotland or Wales couldn't go alone. In terms of size they'd be far from the smallest independent, successful nations if they did. There's a lot of IFs and BUTs though, a lot to disentangle with England, and uncertainties over future EU relationships (or any other alliances).
I'd be happy with with independence for both, but a re-negotiated 'union' with each as equal partners. So we could maintain open borders, freedom of movement and free trade, etc., yet give each nation the opportunity to shape their own future (that would free England too btw, as they seem to want to go in a different direction to the rest of the UK nations). A confident England should allow that.
What we have now is akin to an abusive relationship. Yes, we get money back (much of which we contributed in the first place though taxes, or through activity/resources owned by the devolved nations that are not included in the Barnet calculation) but it's used to control. Levelling up is a case in point. It used to be the case that the EU dealt directly with the devolved parliaments - besides replacing only a fraction of the EU money lost, Westminster has now cut the devolved parliaments out of the loop completely. That's a political decision to blunt influence. It's not healthy behaviour.
PS. apologies to NI for not including them; similar arguments but just turbo charged and I can't do them justice. The way Westminster has behaved over the NI protocol (and now appointing another senior ERGer to NI Sec) shows their utter contempt for the people of N. Ireland and Ireland too. [Post edited 7 Sep 2022 23:03]
|
Spot on.
We can discuss solutions and best ways forward for the UK and/or the regions and nations, but the nature of the relationship and the real problems that causes is rarely talked about and needs to be understood first.
The commonly accepted narrative is that the poorer regions and nations are bailed out by a generous UK government and people. But as you say it’s more like being trapped in an abusive relationship … while not being allowed to go out and work and having to be grateful for money that barely covers the basics let alone the needs of a well-functioning society in the 21st century.
That’s the current context we’re talking about. Not some flag-waving fantasy of “sunny highlands” filled with more hope than actual opportunity. And I don’t think anybody serious is talking like that in Scotland, Wales or Ireland anyway. As we see on here now but in the mainstream too, the silly hyperbole is coming from those denying the current reality and the need to do much better for people. | |
| |
| Dishonest to the last on 09:00 - Sep 8 with 592 views | Darth_Koont |
| Dishonest to the last on 08:39 - Sep 8 by giant_stow |
People really are saying this! I think it would be a mean thing to do personally... like insisting a child who's left home, come back because you don't believe in them. They have to make their own mistakes.
Personally, I reckon that in time, a totally independent Scotland would eventually do ok, but only after a horrible slog and much social strife for many years. I guess the hard core nationalists could put up with that, but what about everyone else? |
Address Swanners’ post at least.
The “horrible slog and much social strife” has been happening for decades already under the current arrangement. But you seem blissfully unaware or unconcerned about that.
Germany reunified and the former soviet states democratised and even split into different countries in many cases. Most of those countries even did that without the shelter and framework of EU membership.
And if it’s better for Scotland’s future economically to go it alone as our neighbours prove, then it will be worth borrowing to pay for the smaller and more short-term costs. Because we certainly can see that the Scottish economy hasn’t done as well within the UK. | |
| |
| Dishonest to the last on 09:37 - Sep 8 with 574 views | giant_stow |
| Dishonest to the last on 09:00 - Sep 8 by Darth_Koont |
Address Swanners’ post at least.
The “horrible slog and much social strife” has been happening for decades already under the current arrangement. But you seem blissfully unaware or unconcerned about that.
Germany reunified and the former soviet states democratised and even split into different countries in many cases. Most of those countries even did that without the shelter and framework of EU membership.
And if it’s better for Scotland’s future economically to go it alone as our neighbours prove, then it will be worth borrowing to pay for the smaller and more short-term costs. Because we certainly can see that the Scottish economy hasn’t done as well within the UK. |
Which bits of Swanner's post would you like me to address?
I'm aware that people have been suffering already (all over the UK) but am saying that Scotland's budget deficit is huge and financed by the UK. Without that financing, there will have to be enormous cuts to spending and/or huge borrowing.
And If you feel Scotland really is in a worse position than the rest of the UK, then I'd ask why? They already control many parts of society and the economy — perhaps the SNP hasn’t been any good at it?
In your last paragraph, I see echoes of your opinions on politic and labour — ie screw social distress now and wait for perfect, with no guarantee that it’ll ever come. Basically a project which more interested in identity than wellbeing. | |
| |
| Dishonest to the last on 13:17 - Sep 8 with 549 views | Darth_Koont |
| Dishonest to the last on 09:37 - Sep 8 by giant_stow |
Which bits of Swanner's post would you like me to address?
I'm aware that people have been suffering already (all over the UK) but am saying that Scotland's budget deficit is huge and financed by the UK. Without that financing, there will have to be enormous cuts to spending and/or huge borrowing.
And If you feel Scotland really is in a worse position than the rest of the UK, then I'd ask why? They already control many parts of society and the economy — perhaps the SNP hasn’t been any good at it?
In your last paragraph, I see echoes of your opinions on politic and labour — ie screw social distress now and wait for perfect, with no guarantee that it’ll ever come. Basically a project which more interested in identity than wellbeing. |
Swanners’ post addresses what you constantly don’t understand.
Ignorance really is no barrier for you, is it? | |
| |
Login to get fewer ads
| Dishonest to the last on 13:19 - Sep 8 with 546 views | giant_stow |
| Dishonest to the last on 13:17 - Sep 8 by Darth_Koont |
Swanners’ post addresses what you constantly don’t understand.
Ignorance really is no barrier for you, is it? |
I love you too Darth, but that wasn't a particularly intelligent post. Please deal with my points and tell me what you'd like me deal with, or of course, just continue to blather on. | |
| |
| Dishonest to the last on 13:38 - Sep 8 with 536 views | Darth_Koont |
| Dishonest to the last on 13:19 - Sep 8 by giant_stow |
I love you too Darth, but that wasn't a particularly intelligent post. Please deal with my points and tell me what you'd like me deal with, or of course, just continue to blather on. |
Go back to the beginning and start again.
Intentional or not, you’re wasting your own time most of all. And I’m not wasting it with you. | |
| |
| Dishonest to the last on 13:54 - Sep 8 with 529 views | giant_stow |
| Dishonest to the last on 13:38 - Sep 8 by Darth_Koont |
Go back to the beginning and start again.
Intentional or not, you’re wasting your own time most of all. And I’m not wasting it with you. |
The mighty Darth has spoken! It's ok to be a bit confused fella. | |
| |
| Dishonest to the last on 18:05 - Sep 8 with 498 views | Darth_Koont |
| Dishonest to the last on 13:54 - Sep 8 by giant_stow |
The mighty Darth has spoken! It's ok to be a bit confused fella. |
Not when it’s your default mister. | |
| |
| Dishonest to the last on 18:44 - Sep 8 with 471 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Dishonest to the last on 09:00 - Sep 8 by Darth_Koont |
Address Swanners’ post at least.
The “horrible slog and much social strife” has been happening for decades already under the current arrangement. But you seem blissfully unaware or unconcerned about that.
Germany reunified and the former soviet states democratised and even split into different countries in many cases. Most of those countries even did that without the shelter and framework of EU membership.
And if it’s better for Scotland’s future economically to go it alone as our neighbours prove, then it will be worth borrowing to pay for the smaller and more short-term costs. Because we certainly can see that the Scottish economy hasn’t done as well within the UK. |
I may have laid it on a bit thick, but yeah fundamentally the relationship isn’t health or mutually equal. Slovenia is another example of a small successful country that stands out from places I’ve visited. It’s surprising how quickly some countries have been restructured/re-born, if there’s the will. | |
| |
| |
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
