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Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 23:39 - Feb 15 by HARRY10
Carpet bombing virtually wiped out Panzer Lehr, though the Yanks did kill 300 allied soldiers through bombing the wrong place.
being stuck in hospital some while back I did listen* to James Hollands ' The War in the West' and ''Brothers in Arms' - Sherwood Foresters (tanks), D-Day to VE Day, and a couple of other audiobooks re Normany etc
What did come out was why German soldiers continued to fight when it should have been obvious the war was lost.
Firstly Goebbels had told them that post war Germany would be turned into a fairly low grade agarian society should they be defeated and that as they would be nothing left then it was a case of taking as many of the enemy as possible before you were killed.
There was laso the belief in the new wonder weapons, that they beleieved had already flattened New York and were in the process of doing so to London, so hang in there and the Allies would sue for peace. There was also the belief that at some point the allies would have to fight the Russians so better to join forces with the Germans.
The panzerfaust was a development of the US bazooka captured in Tunis. And it was from that battle, Torch and after, that the US learnt vital lessons for D-Day (see Kasserine). Supply was honed to a very high standard. The Germans in Normandy bemoaned the fact that the Allies could pull knocked out tanks from the battle and have them back in service within days.
A British soldier records that the Allies were able to use artillery etc to clear any obstacle ahead. The level was coded X, Y Z. The chap on the radio had given the wrong code on the net, everything in range let loose from mortars upwards. Instead of being local artillery hitting what was a couple of guns in a wood, 11 inch cruisers lying off shore joined in. Suffice to say once the air cleared it resembled a WW1 battlefield.No more guns, no more wood either. And altgough the target was nearly half a mile away it was testament to the incredible accuracy on the part of all involved.
It also went on to explain why captured Panthers, MK4s were not put back into action by the allies - lack of parts and ammunition. There were more important things to do than go looking for German amunition.
One of the books also adds a fascinating bit about 'souvenirs'. How allied troops would often strip captured German stuff of anything that had German markings on. That could then be traded with supply blokes who would then trade it with those crossing the channel to flog in ports along the south coast. Lugers, watches and insignia one way, whisky and fags the other.
* Audible co.uk, you can get one book free if you join...... naughty types get friends etc to join, get a free book then cancel before the month is up
Navy support on and after DDay was hugely important. Navy guns were very accurate and a battleship’s 15 inch gun could reach around 17 miles. They were far more accurate than using the strategic air forces.
There were incidents of allies getting it wrong and blowing up our own, but incidents were relatively few, given the numbers involved from what I’ve read of it. The level of coordination between two separate armies was quite remarkable.
In terms of Germans fighting on in a hopeless cause, pledging a personal oath to Hitler was a factor, as was the way the army was organised in that even if a company had lost all its officers and NCOs, the senior man left would take over. Remarkable resilience though. The SS were different in that they were fanatics, well trained and always highly equipped.
Supply was everything really. The logistical effort for DDay was astonishing and the product of the allies industrial war. Air power, Pluto, Mulberry, the creativeness of the ‘’funnies’ (flail tanks, Crocodiles etc), the deception campaign was incredible. The Germans stood no chance.
Americans believe DDay was an all American affair. Looking at who supplied air support, navy and the number of divisions that landed, the truth is rather different. History is written by the winners I suppose.
As for souvenirs, German stuff was much prized. You didn’t want to get captured with anything like that on you though. It meant instant death by and large.
I have a good interest in DDay but have never been to Normandy, to my shame. I have my father in law’s tattered, blackened White Ensign from his ML that was used as a navigation boat leading landing craft into Gold Beach.
Brave men all.
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Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 20:40 - Feb 16 with 1972 views
One of the whole aircraft is possibly an Avro, the other is definitely a Maurice Farman Shorthorn. No brakes, few gauges, no heating, little power, unreliable but stable. Basic! A bit like flying a tea chest.
Many thanks for the information
My grandad was a larger than life character who looked like and reminded me of Bill Shankly. He was always on the look out ventures, and very nearly bought a Scottish island back in the '40s, which would have been nice.
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Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 22:16 - Feb 16 with 1932 views
Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 19:07 - Feb 15 by Churchman
I thoroughly recommend James Holland’s book Normandy 44 which picks up on your correct point about the German army’s inability to resupply. It’s a fascinating book and by far the best I’ve read on the topic.
It was critical in that Germany’s best divisions faced less than half their number in the Caen area (British and Canadians) and were as you rightly say worn down. In fact, largely destroyed. It was the pinning of those divisions that allowed the US to break out.
Part of this was an inability to resupply. Air power was of course crucial, particularly ground attack Hawker Typhoons and P47 Thunderbolts that made daytime movement a grisly affair.
I have a signed copy of Normandy '44. A rattling good read! Do you listen to the We Have Ways podcast with James and Al Murray on? It was good listening to James' thought processes as he wrote Brothers in Arms, he's now doing a similar thing with Italy 43. Can't wait for We Have Ways Fest in September, last year's was great!
It's 106 miles to Portman Road, we've got a full tank of gas, half a round of Port Salut, it's dark... and we're wearing blue tinted sunglasses.
Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 22:16 - Feb 16 by Plums
I have a signed copy of Normandy '44. A rattling good read! Do you listen to the We Have Ways podcast with James and Al Murray on? It was good listening to James' thought processes as he wrote Brothers in Arms, he's now doing a similar thing with Italy 43. Can't wait for We Have Ways Fest in September, last year's was great!
I have listened to some of the podcasts and some of the interviews. They’re excellent.
Brothers in Arms is really interesting and debunks a good few myths about Sherman’s, Fireflys, Panthers and Tigers. Great book. Holland’s book on 617 was excellent too.
Both Holland and Al Murray are so knowledgeable on so many aspects.
The We Have Ways fest sounds interesting.
1
Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 22:49 - Feb 16 with 1897 views
Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 22:33 - Feb 16 by Churchman
I have listened to some of the podcasts and some of the interviews. They’re excellent.
Brothers in Arms is really interesting and debunks a good few myths about Sherman’s, Fireflys, Panthers and Tigers. Great book. Holland’s book on 617 was excellent too.
Both Holland and Al Murray are so knowledgeable on so many aspects.
The We Have Ways fest sounds interesting.
I've just finished reading Snow and Steel by Peter Caddick-Adams, I now have a really burning desire to go rambling round the Ardennes for a week or two! Some of the new perspectives on what in many cases have been Hollywood inspired collective memory are fascinating, particularly how some individual reputations have been enhanced or damaged by the narrative. Every day's a school day.
It's 106 miles to Portman Road, we've got a full tank of gas, half a round of Port Salut, it's dark... and we're wearing blue tinted sunglasses.
Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 22:49 - Feb 16 by Plums
I've just finished reading Snow and Steel by Peter Caddick-Adams, I now have a really burning desire to go rambling round the Ardennes for a week or two! Some of the new perspectives on what in many cases have been Hollywood inspired collective memory are fascinating, particularly how some individual reputations have been enhanced or damaged by the narrative. Every day's a school day.
I’d love to do the DDay area and I really need to do the Somme.
Years ago, I took my mum to the Ypres area believing that was where her dad had been in WW1. A fascinating and moving place, ‘the salient’. Unfortunately her father fought further south the whole time he was in France but I only found that out after she no longer in a position to understand it.
Having done a bit of research, I now know where he went, where he was within a couple of hundred yards on 1st July and exactly where he was when his war ended in Sept 1917. So if there is no other reason, I need to go for my late mum and to Normandy with Mrs C for her dad. I’m also personally very interested - obviously.
I’ve not read Snow and Steel - I’ll definitely seek that out at. All recommendations gratefully received!
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Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 23:30 - Feb 16 with 1845 views
Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 22:16 - Feb 16 by Plums
I have a signed copy of Normandy '44. A rattling good read! Do you listen to the We Have Ways podcast with James and Al Murray on? It was good listening to James' thought processes as he wrote Brothers in Arms, he's now doing a similar thing with Italy 43. Can't wait for We Have Ways Fest in September, last year's was great!
Sciciky 43. I've just started to listen to it - presume Italy 43 is a seperate book.
The two supply chains were different, By 1944 productiion went untouched in the UK, as it ws to getting stuff across the channeal andbthen on to where it was need. The Germans had put a lot of production into tunnels, but much was still hindered by allied bombing. It then faced the long journey to the frontline in Normandy, where once in transit it became subject to the attentions of the resistence and allied fighter bombers. Then,once there, there was the requirement to move it at night.
the Tiger was OK in the west if the Allies had to fight it on it's own terms, otherwse as with Italy it was limited ro where it could go, hampered by breakdown, and time consuming maintenance and repairs. Basically it was a pillbox on wheels. I do wonder if this fixation with ever bigger tanks (the mouse ?) derived from the Germans experience of being on the end of Allied tank attacks in WW1.
Tenasciously fighting rear guard actiona are admirablen if there is an end goal - as with Dunkirk 1940. How many German troops fought to hold out in ports on the Bay of BIscay, to what purpose ? Hitler was OK on tactics, as were his soldiers, more so given they were well experienced by 1944. Much of the Allied forces were not.
Howevr there was still the contradiction of german soldiers at the ground level being given far greater autonomy and, having an ability to form a 'battle group' to often great effect with that of an overall commader hundreds of miles away who often retain his WW1 sdictum of holding on the the lst man, and a swift counter attack.
Even then it would not have stopped what was inevitable - only making it a question of how long. the current war in Ukraine is much the same. Germany and France alone are tghe population size of Russia, and without embargos of vital electronic and computer stuff could well match Russia if put on the same war footing, then add all the various European countries and it does look to be inevitable. And that does not include the US which has a population of around two and a half times that of Russia. Japan, Australia, Canada....... ?
Putin will be lucky to stay in office never mind clinging to Crimea.
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Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 23:40 - Feb 16 with 1842 views
Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 23:30 - Feb 16 by HARRY10
Sciciky 43. I've just started to listen to it - presume Italy 43 is a seperate book.
The two supply chains were different, By 1944 productiion went untouched in the UK, as it ws to getting stuff across the channeal andbthen on to where it was need. The Germans had put a lot of production into tunnels, but much was still hindered by allied bombing. It then faced the long journey to the frontline in Normandy, where once in transit it became subject to the attentions of the resistence and allied fighter bombers. Then,once there, there was the requirement to move it at night.
the Tiger was OK in the west if the Allies had to fight it on it's own terms, otherwse as with Italy it was limited ro where it could go, hampered by breakdown, and time consuming maintenance and repairs. Basically it was a pillbox on wheels. I do wonder if this fixation with ever bigger tanks (the mouse ?) derived from the Germans experience of being on the end of Allied tank attacks in WW1.
Tenasciously fighting rear guard actiona are admirablen if there is an end goal - as with Dunkirk 1940. How many German troops fought to hold out in ports on the Bay of BIscay, to what purpose ? Hitler was OK on tactics, as were his soldiers, more so given they were well experienced by 1944. Much of the Allied forces were not.
Howevr there was still the contradiction of german soldiers at the ground level being given far greater autonomy and, having an ability to form a 'battle group' to often great effect with that of an overall commader hundreds of miles away who often retain his WW1 sdictum of holding on the the lst man, and a swift counter attack.
Even then it would not have stopped what was inevitable - only making it a question of how long. the current war in Ukraine is much the same. Germany and France alone are tghe population size of Russia, and without embargos of vital electronic and computer stuff could well match Russia if put on the same war footing, then add all the various European countries and it does look to be inevitable. And that does not include the US which has a population of around two and a half times that of Russia. Japan, Australia, Canada....... ?
Putin will be lucky to stay in office never mind clinging to Crimea.
Yes, the new book follows from the toe of Italy up to Cassino so not all 43. He tweeted a draft cover yesterday and it seems that will be the title - although he has said the battle for the monastery is only a small part of the story (and one that's been pretty heavily covered).
It's 106 miles to Portman Road, we've got a full tank of gas, half a round of Port Salut, it's dark... and we're wearing blue tinted sunglasses.
Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 07:23 - Feb 17 by Plums
Yes, the new book follows from the toe of Italy up to Cassino so not all 43. He tweeted a draft cover yesterday and it seems that will be the title - although he has said the battle for the monastery is only a small part of the story (and one that's been pretty heavily covered).
A good friend of mine’s dad was at Cassino. She says he could never talk about it and it took her years to understand what a nightmare it was. The war in Italy is often forgotten, but it was far removed from Churchill’s hopeful notion that it was the ‘soft underbelly’.
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Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 08:27 - Feb 17 with 1771 views
Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 23:30 - Feb 16 by HARRY10
Sciciky 43. I've just started to listen to it - presume Italy 43 is a seperate book.
The two supply chains were different, By 1944 productiion went untouched in the UK, as it ws to getting stuff across the channeal andbthen on to where it was need. The Germans had put a lot of production into tunnels, but much was still hindered by allied bombing. It then faced the long journey to the frontline in Normandy, where once in transit it became subject to the attentions of the resistence and allied fighter bombers. Then,once there, there was the requirement to move it at night.
the Tiger was OK in the west if the Allies had to fight it on it's own terms, otherwse as with Italy it was limited ro where it could go, hampered by breakdown, and time consuming maintenance and repairs. Basically it was a pillbox on wheels. I do wonder if this fixation with ever bigger tanks (the mouse ?) derived from the Germans experience of being on the end of Allied tank attacks in WW1.
Tenasciously fighting rear guard actiona are admirablen if there is an end goal - as with Dunkirk 1940. How many German troops fought to hold out in ports on the Bay of BIscay, to what purpose ? Hitler was OK on tactics, as were his soldiers, more so given they were well experienced by 1944. Much of the Allied forces were not.
Howevr there was still the contradiction of german soldiers at the ground level being given far greater autonomy and, having an ability to form a 'battle group' to often great effect with that of an overall commader hundreds of miles away who often retain his WW1 sdictum of holding on the the lst man, and a swift counter attack.
Even then it would not have stopped what was inevitable - only making it a question of how long. the current war in Ukraine is much the same. Germany and France alone are tghe population size of Russia, and without embargos of vital electronic and computer stuff could well match Russia if put on the same war footing, then add all the various European countries and it does look to be inevitable. And that does not include the US which has a population of around two and a half times that of Russia. Japan, Australia, Canada....... ?
Putin will be lucky to stay in office never mind clinging to Crimea.
Hitler could be inspired tactically, but most of the time he was clueless and the more time went on the less attached to military reality he was. Fighting to the last man is as you say pretty wasteful if there is no purpose to it, as Stalingrad and dozens of other instances proved. As least there was a certain point to the defence of Calais in 1940. Hitler was fixated with ‘the triumph of the will’. Not exactly realistic if you are surrounded, rocketed, bombed, shelled, mortared day and night and you are down to your last MG42 barrel and a few rounds.
Divisions on paper we’re never the same as reality. They never are. Some of Hitler’s were excellent and very well equipped, many were not. Some consisted of experienced battle hardened troops, others the unfit, old, too young. Overall, the allied troops prove every bit as good individually as the Germans (I fundamentally disagree with Hastings on this). The mashing of 7 good German divisions by 3 British/Canadian in the Caen area is ample evidence of that - though of course air, naval, logistical support (repair and replacement) was a crucial factor.
In the end the Germans were out thought and out fought in every way imaginable. You are right about Russia/Ukraine.
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Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 10:39 - Feb 17 with 1727 views
Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 07:59 - Feb 17 by Churchman
A good friend of mine’s dad was at Cassino. She says he could never talk about it and it took her years to understand what a nightmare it was. The war in Italy is often forgotten, but it was far removed from Churchill’s hopeful notion that it was the ‘soft underbelly’.
My uncle fought in Italy, including at Anzio.
Those who fought in Italy came to be known as the D-Day Dodgers, partly as a result of words Lady Astor was reputed to have said.
The song seems to have developed organically, but these are the lyrics which Hamish Henderson (who fought in Italy) put together. The last two verses are particularly moving.
We're the D-Day Dodgers out in Italy Always on the vino, always on the spree. Eighth Army scroungers and their tanks We live in Rome — among the Yanks. We are the D-Day Dodgers, over here in Italy.
We landed at Salerno, a holiday with pay, Jerry brought the band down to cheer us on our way Showed us the sights and gave us tea, We all sang songs, the beer was free. We are the D-Day Dodgers, way out in Italy.[2]
The Volturno and Cassino were taken in our stride.[3] We didn't have to fight there. We just went for the ride. Anzio and Sangro were all forlorn. We did not do a thing from dusk to dawn.[4] For we are the D-Day Dodgers, over here in Italy.
On our way to Florence we had a lovely time. We ran a bus to Rimini right through the Gothic Line. On to Bologna we did go. Then we went bathing in the Po. For we are the D-Day Dodgers, over here in Italy.
Once we had a blue light that we were going home Back to dear old Blighty, never more to roam. Then somebody said in France you'll fight. We said never mind, we'll just sit tight, The windy D-Day Dodgers, out in Sunny Italy.
Now Lady Astor, get a load of this. Don't stand up on a platform and talk a load of piss. You're the nation's sweetheart, the nation's pride We think your mouth's too bloody wide. We are the D-Day Dodgers, in Sunny Italy.
When you look 'round the mountains, through the mud and rain You'll find the crosses, some which bear no name. Heartbreak, and toil and suffering gone The boys beneath them slumber on They were the D-Day Dodgers, who'll stay in Italy.[5]
So listen all you people, over land and foam Even though we've parted, our hearts are close to home. When we return we hope you'll say "You did your little bit, though far away All of the D-Day Dodgers, way out there in Italy.
[Post edited 17 Feb 2023 10:43]
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Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 11:28 - Feb 17 with 1687 views
The song seems to have developed organically, but these are the lyrics which Hamish Henderson (who fought in Italy) put together. The last two verses are particularly moving.
We're the D-Day Dodgers out in Italy Always on the vino, always on the spree. Eighth Army scroungers and their tanks We live in Rome — among the Yanks. We are the D-Day Dodgers, over here in Italy.
We landed at Salerno, a holiday with pay, Jerry brought the band down to cheer us on our way Showed us the sights and gave us tea, We all sang songs, the beer was free. We are the D-Day Dodgers, way out in Italy.[2]
The Volturno and Cassino were taken in our stride.[3] We didn't have to fight there. We just went for the ride. Anzio and Sangro were all forlorn. We did not do a thing from dusk to dawn.[4] For we are the D-Day Dodgers, over here in Italy.
On our way to Florence we had a lovely time. We ran a bus to Rimini right through the Gothic Line. On to Bologna we did go. Then we went bathing in the Po. For we are the D-Day Dodgers, over here in Italy.
Once we had a blue light that we were going home Back to dear old Blighty, never more to roam. Then somebody said in France you'll fight. We said never mind, we'll just sit tight, The windy D-Day Dodgers, out in Sunny Italy.
Now Lady Astor, get a load of this. Don't stand up on a platform and talk a load of piss. You're the nation's sweetheart, the nation's pride We think your mouth's too bloody wide. We are the D-Day Dodgers, in Sunny Italy.
When you look 'round the mountains, through the mud and rain You'll find the crosses, some which bear no name. Heartbreak, and toil and suffering gone The boys beneath them slumber on They were the D-Day Dodgers, who'll stay in Italy.[5]
So listen all you people, over land and foam Even though we've parted, our hearts are close to home. When we return we hope you'll say "You did your little bit, though far away All of the D-Day Dodgers, way out there in Italy.
[Post edited 17 Feb 2023 10:43]
Hamish Henderson also wrote the lyrics for the 51st Highand Division's Farewell To Sicily, based on the bagpipe tune Farewell to the Creeks.
As an aside, the following is from the Wikipedia entry for Hamish Henderson.
Henderson collected the lyrics to "D-Day Dodgers," a satirical song to the tune of "Lili Marlene", attributed to Lance-Sergeant Harry Pynn, who served in Italy. Henderson also wrote the lyrics to "The 51st (Highland) Division's Farewell to Sicily", set to a pipe tune called "Farewell to the Creeks". The book in which these were collected, Ballads of World War II, was published "privately" to evade censorship, but earned Henderson a ten-year ban from BBC radio, preventing a series on ballad-making from being made.
EDIT: The reason Henderson was banned was presumably because the lyrics of some of the ballads did not reflect the establishment line on WW2, even though they reflected the views of those who actually fought, but for those interested, here is a link to the book which led to his ban. If nothing else, the preface is worth reading.
The song seems to have developed organically, but these are the lyrics which Hamish Henderson (who fought in Italy) put together. The last two verses are particularly moving.
We're the D-Day Dodgers out in Italy Always on the vino, always on the spree. Eighth Army scroungers and their tanks We live in Rome — among the Yanks. We are the D-Day Dodgers, over here in Italy.
We landed at Salerno, a holiday with pay, Jerry brought the band down to cheer us on our way Showed us the sights and gave us tea, We all sang songs, the beer was free. We are the D-Day Dodgers, way out in Italy.[2]
The Volturno and Cassino were taken in our stride.[3] We didn't have to fight there. We just went for the ride. Anzio and Sangro were all forlorn. We did not do a thing from dusk to dawn.[4] For we are the D-Day Dodgers, over here in Italy.
On our way to Florence we had a lovely time. We ran a bus to Rimini right through the Gothic Line. On to Bologna we did go. Then we went bathing in the Po. For we are the D-Day Dodgers, over here in Italy.
Once we had a blue light that we were going home Back to dear old Blighty, never more to roam. Then somebody said in France you'll fight. We said never mind, we'll just sit tight, The windy D-Day Dodgers, out in Sunny Italy.
Now Lady Astor, get a load of this. Don't stand up on a platform and talk a load of piss. You're the nation's sweetheart, the nation's pride We think your mouth's too bloody wide. We are the D-Day Dodgers, in Sunny Italy.
When you look 'round the mountains, through the mud and rain You'll find the crosses, some which bear no name. Heartbreak, and toil and suffering gone The boys beneath them slumber on They were the D-Day Dodgers, who'll stay in Italy.[5]
So listen all you people, over land and foam Even though we've parted, our hearts are close to home. When we return we hope you'll say "You did your little bit, though far away All of the D-Day Dodgers, way out there in Italy.
[Post edited 17 Feb 2023 10:43]
Thank you for posting that. They got a bit of a raw deal, nearly as much as those that fought in the Far East. The Italian campaign was hideous.
The allied commander was by then an American General called Mark Clark. He was about as incompetent as you can get and that’s being kind. He chose the ‘glory’ of liberating Rome the day before DDay to encircling the German army. The cost in lives was horrendous and he should have been fired.
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Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 20:51 - Feb 17 with 1579 views
Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 08:27 - Feb 17 by Churchman
Hitler could be inspired tactically, but most of the time he was clueless and the more time went on the less attached to military reality he was. Fighting to the last man is as you say pretty wasteful if there is no purpose to it, as Stalingrad and dozens of other instances proved. As least there was a certain point to the defence of Calais in 1940. Hitler was fixated with ‘the triumph of the will’. Not exactly realistic if you are surrounded, rocketed, bombed, shelled, mortared day and night and you are down to your last MG42 barrel and a few rounds.
Divisions on paper we’re never the same as reality. They never are. Some of Hitler’s were excellent and very well equipped, many were not. Some consisted of experienced battle hardened troops, others the unfit, old, too young. Overall, the allied troops prove every bit as good individually as the Germans (I fundamentally disagree with Hastings on this). The mashing of 7 good German divisions by 3 British/Canadian in the Caen area is ample evidence of that - though of course air, naval, logistical support (repair and replacement) was a crucial factor.
In the end the Germans were out thought and out fought in every way imaginable. You are right about Russia/Ukraine.
It is almost impossible to make meaningful comparisosns given the number of variables to be taken into account.
In Normandy Poles and Alsace/Lorraine French when captured as German soldiers volunteered to serve with the allies. In fact the Frech were inundated with young Frenchmen wanting to join up with them, when their part of France was liberated.
There were also in the German ranks, Russian prsioners who were offered the chance to serve in the German army, and did. Large numbers of anti Russians s from the Baltic states, Belarus and Ukraine (hence the current accusations of them being Nazis).
Yes there was more knowledgeable 'field craft' by experienced Germans over inexperienced allied troops. But it was always going to be the better equiped allies who would win through, eventually.
Hitler and others had painted themselves into a corner. Attack and counter attack, at all costs. Much of the loss at Falaise was due to the hopeless and almost pointless attack westwards at Montagne. Perhaps if the US hadn't one eye on Paris the allies could have captured/destroyed more of the 7th Army at Falaise.
But then had the Germans stationed their tank divisions closer to the beach (as per Rommel) might they have driven the allies off the beach before they got a foothold ? Should the allies have stopped at the Belgian border and concentrated on the success of the US coming up from the south ?
It is easy to speculate knowing what those at the time didn't. What was 'on the other side of hill' is the expression used. However the allies did know a fair bit, through the ULTRA information. Which the begs the question of how would things have panned out were that knowledge to have been available to the Germans and not the allies - as with Rommel in the western desert ?
As expressed by the thought "if my granny had bo.llox she would be my grandfather" - and perhaps if Adolf had had both of his he may have just stayed as a man painting postcards, and not the enraged man he was
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Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 23:25 - Feb 17 with 1525 views
Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 20:51 - Feb 17 by HARRY10
It is almost impossible to make meaningful comparisosns given the number of variables to be taken into account.
In Normandy Poles and Alsace/Lorraine French when captured as German soldiers volunteered to serve with the allies. In fact the Frech were inundated with young Frenchmen wanting to join up with them, when their part of France was liberated.
There were also in the German ranks, Russian prsioners who were offered the chance to serve in the German army, and did. Large numbers of anti Russians s from the Baltic states, Belarus and Ukraine (hence the current accusations of them being Nazis).
Yes there was more knowledgeable 'field craft' by experienced Germans over inexperienced allied troops. But it was always going to be the better equiped allies who would win through, eventually.
Hitler and others had painted themselves into a corner. Attack and counter attack, at all costs. Much of the loss at Falaise was due to the hopeless and almost pointless attack westwards at Montagne. Perhaps if the US hadn't one eye on Paris the allies could have captured/destroyed more of the 7th Army at Falaise.
But then had the Germans stationed their tank divisions closer to the beach (as per Rommel) might they have driven the allies off the beach before they got a foothold ? Should the allies have stopped at the Belgian border and concentrated on the success of the US coming up from the south ?
It is easy to speculate knowing what those at the time didn't. What was 'on the other side of hill' is the expression used. However the allies did know a fair bit, through the ULTRA information. Which the begs the question of how would things have panned out were that knowledge to have been available to the Germans and not the allies - as with Rommel in the western desert ?
As expressed by the thought "if my granny had bo.llox she would be my grandfather" - and perhaps if Adolf had had both of his he may have just stayed as a man painting postcards, and not the enraged man he was
Great post Harry.. you are right to point out ULTRA. What we knew and did with it was astonishing. Anyone whose not been to Bletchley Park and finds themselves able to go should do so. Ive been twice, read a good few books on it and I’m still a mile off understanding what Turing, Flowers and all of them did. What I do know is that they shortened the war by a considerable margin.
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Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 09:41 - Feb 19 with 1424 views
Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 13:29 - Feb 17 by Churchman
Thank you for posting that. They got a bit of a raw deal, nearly as much as those that fought in the Far East. The Italian campaign was hideous.
The allied commander was by then an American General called Mark Clark. He was about as incompetent as you can get and that’s being kind. He chose the ‘glory’ of liberating Rome the day before DDay to encircling the German army. The cost in lives was horrendous and he should have been fired.
I'm not really into military history but I do wish I'd had a chance to talk to my uncles about their experiences in the various conflicts they were involved in, namely, North Africa, Italy, D-Day and Burma.
Sadly, I didn't know them well (or at all) because our family was so far flung, and in any event, they all died when I was too young to appreciate what they had done.
Perhaps the most remarkable of my uncles was the one involved in the Normandy landings and beyond.
He served in the 1st Assault Brigade Royal Engineers who used modified tanks to support the D-Day landings and beyond. The vehicles were known as Armoured Vehicle Royal Engineers or AVRE, and were one of the types of vehicles known as Hobart's Funnies.
Despite coming from fairly humble origins, he attained the rank of Captain, and received the Military Cross and bar (effectively two Military Crosses) for two separate act of gallantry, one of only 482 people in WW2 to do so.
I remember my father showing me a local newspaper clipping from the time (the whereabouts of which I am not sure) showing he had accepted the actual surrender of Boulogne by the German commander of the town. As it turned out, he was not of sufficient rank to formally do this, so the formal surrender took place a little later. My uncle did, however, get to keep the binoculars which the German commander gave him.
Doing a bit of further digging, the operation to take Boulogne was known as Operation Wellhit. The 3rd Canadian Division of the First Canadian Army were involved in the operation but they were supported by AVREs. According to the following, the German Commander was General Ferdinand Heim, and the formal surrender was accepted by Canadian Brigadier John Meredith Rockingham, presumably shortly after Heim's capture after armour was brought forward.
My uncle was injured later in the war, and maybe it was this incident which was one of those which led to the award of the Military Cross. My dad was certainly very proud of him but, sadly, I never really probed him about all he knew about my uncle's involvement.
[Post edited 19 Feb 2023 9:50]
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Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 09:59 - Feb 19 with 1415 views
Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 09:41 - Feb 19 by DJR
I'm not really into military history but I do wish I'd had a chance to talk to my uncles about their experiences in the various conflicts they were involved in, namely, North Africa, Italy, D-Day and Burma.
Sadly, I didn't know them well (or at all) because our family was so far flung, and in any event, they all died when I was too young to appreciate what they had done.
Perhaps the most remarkable of my uncles was the one involved in the Normandy landings and beyond.
He served in the 1st Assault Brigade Royal Engineers who used modified tanks to support the D-Day landings and beyond. The vehicles were known as Armoured Vehicle Royal Engineers or AVRE, and were one of the types of vehicles known as Hobart's Funnies.
Despite coming from fairly humble origins, he attained the rank of Captain, and received the Military Cross and bar (effectively two Military Crosses) for two separate act of gallantry, one of only 482 people in WW2 to do so.
I remember my father showing me a local newspaper clipping from the time (the whereabouts of which I am not sure) showing he had accepted the actual surrender of Boulogne by the German commander of the town. As it turned out, he was not of sufficient rank to formally do this, so the formal surrender took place a little later. My uncle did, however, get to keep the binoculars which the German commander gave him.
Doing a bit of further digging, the operation to take Boulogne was known as Operation Wellhit. The 3rd Canadian Division of the First Canadian Army were involved in the operation but they were supported by AVREs. According to the following, the German Commander was General Ferdinand Heim, and the formal surrender was accepted by Canadian Brigadier John Meredith Rockingham, presumably shortly after Heim's capture after armour was brought forward.
My uncle was injured later in the war, and maybe it was this incident which was one of those which led to the award of the Military Cross. My dad was certainly very proud of him but, sadly, I never really probed him about all he knew about my uncle's involvement.
[Post edited 19 Feb 2023 9:50]
You should be very proud of him. To win an MC is extraordinary. Twice over? Wow. It’s actually only one down from a VC. If you get the time, try and track your relations experiences. It’s important they are not lost.
Getting people to talk of their experiences isn’t easy. Some things are just off limits. My grandfather refused to talk about his WW1 time to my mum who was interested and my father in law refused to talk about WW2 to me, despite having an interesting naval career both in Europe and later against the Japanese. I offered to take him to the Normandy Vets reunions, but he refused.
Hobart’s Funnies we’re really innovative bits of kit. They included flamethrower tanks (Crocodiles), flail tanks (mines), AVRE (mortar tank), Sherman DD (floating tanks), ones that carried bridges, fillies in trenches, bulldozer/plough tanks, ramp tanks. You name it. They proved very useful on DDay and beyond.
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Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 10:25 - Feb 19 with 1400 views
Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 09:59 - Feb 19 by Churchman
You should be very proud of him. To win an MC is extraordinary. Twice over? Wow. It’s actually only one down from a VC. If you get the time, try and track your relations experiences. It’s important they are not lost.
Getting people to talk of their experiences isn’t easy. Some things are just off limits. My grandfather refused to talk about his WW1 time to my mum who was interested and my father in law refused to talk about WW2 to me, despite having an interesting naval career both in Europe and later against the Japanese. I offered to take him to the Normandy Vets reunions, but he refused.
Hobart’s Funnies we’re really innovative bits of kit. They included flamethrower tanks (Crocodiles), flail tanks (mines), AVRE (mortar tank), Sherman DD (floating tanks), ones that carried bridges, fillies in trenches, bulldozer/plough tanks, ramp tanks. You name it. They proved very useful on DDay and beyond.
I certainly am. As it is, I still am in very intermittent contact with his two sons (my cousins), usually only at the time of a family death. They obviously will know much more about his experiences.
My digging, and your prompting, has made me want to contact them about what they know, and I'll add that to my list of things to do.
[Post edited 19 Feb 2023 10:26]
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Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 10:51 - Feb 19 with 1380 views
Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 10:25 - Feb 19 by DJR
I certainly am. As it is, I still am in very intermittent contact with his two sons (my cousins), usually only at the time of a family death. They obviously will know much more about his experiences.
My digging, and your prompting, has made me want to contact them about what they know, and I'll add that to my list of things to do.
[Post edited 19 Feb 2023 10:26]
Good luck with it. As an officer and one of renown as MC holders rightly are, there will be a lot of material out there. Some may well be held at the RE Museum in Chatham and company records that you should be able to find at the Public Record Office (Kew) will help. Officers tend to be named, ORs are not.
Edit: noticed this. Not read it, but might be worth tracking down a copy new, second hand, library
Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 10:51 - Feb 19 by Churchman
Good luck with it. As an officer and one of renown as MC holders rightly are, there will be a lot of material out there. Some may well be held at the RE Museum in Chatham and company records that you should be able to find at the Public Record Office (Kew) will help. Officers tend to be named, ORs are not.
Edit: noticed this. Not read it, but might be worth tracking down a copy new, second hand, library
Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 11:07 - Feb 19 by DJR
Many thanks for that. I signed up to the the Forces War Records website yesterday but that had no information on it that I didn't already know.
I don't actually live that far from Chatham, so the Museum would seem to be the first port of call.
It’s somewhere within Brompton Barracks. It might well be worth contacting them as a start. It’s quite easy to get to. I actually attend the ABF charity lunch in the Officers Mess each year and that’s worth a look if you can get in.
Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 11:17 - Feb 19 by Churchman
It’s somewhere within Brompton Barracks. It might well be worth contacting them as a start. It’s quite easy to get to. I actually attend the ABF charity lunch in the Officers Mess each year and that’s worth a look if you can get in.
Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 09:41 - Feb 19 by DJR
I'm not really into military history but I do wish I'd had a chance to talk to my uncles about their experiences in the various conflicts they were involved in, namely, North Africa, Italy, D-Day and Burma.
Sadly, I didn't know them well (or at all) because our family was so far flung, and in any event, they all died when I was too young to appreciate what they had done.
Perhaps the most remarkable of my uncles was the one involved in the Normandy landings and beyond.
He served in the 1st Assault Brigade Royal Engineers who used modified tanks to support the D-Day landings and beyond. The vehicles were known as Armoured Vehicle Royal Engineers or AVRE, and were one of the types of vehicles known as Hobart's Funnies.
Despite coming from fairly humble origins, he attained the rank of Captain, and received the Military Cross and bar (effectively two Military Crosses) for two separate act of gallantry, one of only 482 people in WW2 to do so.
I remember my father showing me a local newspaper clipping from the time (the whereabouts of which I am not sure) showing he had accepted the actual surrender of Boulogne by the German commander of the town. As it turned out, he was not of sufficient rank to formally do this, so the formal surrender took place a little later. My uncle did, however, get to keep the binoculars which the German commander gave him.
Doing a bit of further digging, the operation to take Boulogne was known as Operation Wellhit. The 3rd Canadian Division of the First Canadian Army were involved in the operation but they were supported by AVREs. According to the following, the German Commander was General Ferdinand Heim, and the formal surrender was accepted by Canadian Brigadier John Meredith Rockingham, presumably shortly after Heim's capture after armour was brought forward.
My uncle was injured later in the war, and maybe it was this incident which was one of those which led to the award of the Military Cross. My dad was certainly very proud of him but, sadly, I never really probed him about all he knew about my uncle's involvement.
[Post edited 19 Feb 2023 9:50]
One of the Funnies - The Spigot Mortar version based on a Churchill tank chassis. You don’t want to be anywhere near the wrong end of one of these.
Giles Milton's book on 'Churchill's Ministry of Ungentlemanly Warfare' is a really entertaining read on the boffins behind some of the weapons, including the spigot mortar. Based not far from Bletchley, they had a secret budget and got up to all sorts of highjinks. Well worth a read.
It's 106 miles to Portman Road, we've got a full tank of gas, half a round of Port Salut, it's dark... and we're wearing blue tinted sunglasses.
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