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Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 12:24 - Feb 19 by Plums
Giles Milton's book on 'Churchill's Ministry of Ungentlemanly Warfare' is a really entertaining read on the boffins behind some of the weapons, including the spigot mortar. Based not far from Bletchley, they had a secret budget and got up to all sorts of highjinks. Well worth a read.
Agreed. I thoroughly recommend it. It’s well written too. Some of the stuff they came up with makes the James Bond ideas look weedy and unimaginative.
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Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 13:13 - Feb 19 with 1884 views
Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 23:25 - Feb 17 by Churchman
Great post Harry.. you are right to point out ULTRA. What we knew and did with it was astonishing. Anyone whose not been to Bletchley Park and finds themselves able to go should do so. Ive been twice, read a good few books on it and I’m still a mile off understanding what Turing, Flowers and all of them did. What I do know is that they shortened the war by a considerable margin.
What is probably not known - and certainly played a part in creating Rommels legenday status
"Fellers was concerned about the security of the "Black Code" of the U.S. State Department, used when he sent his reports by radiogram. His concerns were overridden. Fellers was right to be concerned, as the details of the code had been stolen from the U.S. embassy in Italy in September 1941 in a covert night raid into the embassy by Italian spies from the Servizio Informazioni Militare (SIM), the Italian military intelligence service. This enabled the Italians to read the reports, and within eight hours, the most secret data on British "strengths, positions, losses, reinforcements, supply, situation, plans, morale etc" would be in the hands of the German and the Italian militaries."
Most folks views on Dunkirk are perhaps, at best, rather 'naive'- though not any comprehensive analysis of that week, it is maybe an eye opener for some, as is the knowledge that two and a half times the number of those lifted from the beach, were rescued from from the harbour.
Much as with the supposed German invasion threat (1940) - which hardly stands up to even the most cursory of examinations
[Post edited 19 Feb 2023 19:54]
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Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 07:43 - Feb 20 with 1737 views
Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 19:02 - Feb 19 by HARRY10
What is probably not known - and certainly played a part in creating Rommels legenday status
"Fellers was concerned about the security of the "Black Code" of the U.S. State Department, used when he sent his reports by radiogram. His concerns were overridden. Fellers was right to be concerned, as the details of the code had been stolen from the U.S. embassy in Italy in September 1941 in a covert night raid into the embassy by Italian spies from the Servizio Informazioni Militare (SIM), the Italian military intelligence service. This enabled the Italians to read the reports, and within eight hours, the most secret data on British "strengths, positions, losses, reinforcements, supply, situation, plans, morale etc" would be in the hands of the German and the Italian militaries."
Most folks views on Dunkirk are perhaps, at best, rather 'naive'- though not any comprehensive analysis of that week, it is maybe an eye opener for some, as is the knowledge that two and a half times the number of those lifted from the beach, were rescued from from the harbour.
Much as with the supposed German invasion threat (1940) - which hardly stands up to even the most cursory of examinations
[Post edited 19 Feb 2023 19:54]
Interesting. I didn’t know about the theft of code by the Italians.
There is a lot of myth around the Dunkirk evacuation, not least due to the propaganda used at the time. However, without the saving of so many men of the BEF, it’s likely Britain would have called it a day with Germany so it was pivotal.
The majority were lifted from the Mole, a sort of breakwater, as you rightly say. What is rarely mentioned is the outstanding bravery of those defending the perimeter, who were mostly French soldiers.
Also worthy of credit were the Navy of course, Ramsey who was responsible for Dynamo, his beach organiser, the RAF who were operating behind the beaches, too high to be seen or over the channel. Lastly the discipline of the troops themselves. There were malingerers, I’ll disciplined, panic ridden men, but these were mostly seen at beginning of the operation.
The fall of France, Belgium and Netherlands is an interesting story, laced with myth and misinformation. What cannot be glossed over is that it was Hitler’s finest moment and a disastrous defeat for France and Britain.
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Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 08:21 - Feb 20 with 1708 views
Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 07:43 - Feb 20 by Churchman
Interesting. I didn’t know about the theft of code by the Italians.
There is a lot of myth around the Dunkirk evacuation, not least due to the propaganda used at the time. However, without the saving of so many men of the BEF, it’s likely Britain would have called it a day with Germany so it was pivotal.
The majority were lifted from the Mole, a sort of breakwater, as you rightly say. What is rarely mentioned is the outstanding bravery of those defending the perimeter, who were mostly French soldiers.
Also worthy of credit were the Navy of course, Ramsey who was responsible for Dynamo, his beach organiser, the RAF who were operating behind the beaches, too high to be seen or over the channel. Lastly the discipline of the troops themselves. There were malingerers, I’ll disciplined, panic ridden men, but these were mostly seen at beginning of the operation.
The fall of France, Belgium and Netherlands is an interesting story, laced with myth and misinformation. What cannot be glossed over is that it was Hitler’s finest moment and a disastrous defeat for France and Britain.
Fascinating stuff. Of course, it was Hitler's finest moment until the Halt Order. Without that, we may well be living in a Nazi Europe now. Your point about the French is also important. They're much maligned but it was their command and control (or lack of it) that failed them, not the individuals. Branding them as 'surrender monkeys' as some frequently do, does the rank and file a real disservice.
[Post edited 20 Feb 2023 9:06]
It's 106 miles to Portman Road, we've got a full tank of gas, half a round of Port Salut, it's dark... and we're wearing blue tinted sunglasses.
Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 08:21 - Feb 20 by Plums
Fascinating stuff. Of course, it was Hitler's finest moment until the Halt Order. Without that, we may well be living in a Nazi Europe now. Your point about the French is also important. They're much maligned but it was their command and control (or lack of it) that failed them, not the individuals. Branding them as 'surrender monkeys' as some frequently do, does the rank and file a real disservice.
[Post edited 20 Feb 2023 9:06]
There is some dispute as to whether the halt order was Hitler’s or Runstedt’s / German High Command. The prevailing view was that it was needed for rest and resupply, but of course Guderian wanted to get on with it. And he was probably right.
The French army was a mixture of good and bad, as the conduct of the campaign showed. Their tanks (Char B2 and Somua) were as good as the Germans but were ill used. Artillery was as good and their transport no worse, for the most part. Only about 10 German divisions were mechanised. It was largely a horse or foot driven army, just like Napoleon’s.
Their Air Force command and control was poor and in fact not really committed, despite having good pilots and some decent types.
They were unlucky (or ill judged) in that the worst divisions wound up facing the best German ones after the Ardennes were broken through. But their rigid, basically inept high command failed dismally.
The Maginot Line was actually a good idea and an amazing bit of tech. It enabled France to make up for a smaller population. The problem was Belgium, the gap and the 1918 mentality in a 1940 war. Gamelin refused to use the telephone. Orders went by messenger and were often way too late. It’s said he didn’t trust it’s security which is a good reason but missed the point. His subordinates were mostly poor and his successors too old.
As many of their men proved, including against the Italians, they were by no means ‘cheese eating surrender monkeys’.
Britains small force had some excellent commanders in the likes of Brooke and Montgomery, but Gort was unfit for command at that level, brave though he was. The impact of political interference didn’t help. Fanciful ideas and promises that couldn’t be met (Churchill mainly) only made a desperate situation worse.
[Post edited 20 Feb 2023 9:28]
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Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 15:45 - Mar 9 with 1531 views
Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 10:51 - Feb 19 by Churchman
Good luck with it. As an officer and one of renown as MC holders rightly are, there will be a lot of material out there. Some may well be held at the RE Museum in Chatham and company records that you should be able to find at the Public Record Office (Kew) will help. Officers tend to be named, ORs are not.
Edit: noticed this. Not read it, but might be worth tracking down a copy new, second hand, library
I thought you might be interested in the fact that I have found, tucked away in a suitcase of photos etc relating to my parents, a copy of the recommendation for the award of a Military Cross to my uncle. Many thanks for prompting me to look into this.
Interestingly, the recommendation is signed by Field Marshall Montgomery, and his unit is given as 81 Assault Sqd R.E.
This is the text of the recommendation.
"On 28 February 1945, Capt XXXX was commanding a Troop of AVsRE under command 11 Armd Div. He was ordered to make a fascine crossing over a stream North of Kervehheim. This involved Capt XXXX and some of his men working outside their AVsRE under heavy mortar fire, which caused casualties to the Infantry in the vicinity. The crossing was successfully completed. Later on the crossing was reported to be failing and Capt XXXX was ordered to take up another fascine. Owing to the difficulty of the approach, he lay on top of the fascine bundle and guided the driver. During this he was wounded in the leg by Spanau fire. He then crawled forward under cover of smoke and despite heavy mortar fire and Spandau fire, he carried out a recce of the crossing. He found that the crossing was intact, but to ensure its future use he personally laid tracing tapes down to the crossing, still under fire. Capt XXXX’s complete disregard for personal danger, and his high standard of leadership and devotion to duty, ensured the continued use of this important crossing."
Sadly, there are presumably many similar acts of heroism going on today in another part of Europe.
Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 15:45 - Mar 9 by DJR
I thought you might be interested in the fact that I have found, tucked away in a suitcase of photos etc relating to my parents, a copy of the recommendation for the award of a Military Cross to my uncle. Many thanks for prompting me to look into this.
Interestingly, the recommendation is signed by Field Marshall Montgomery, and his unit is given as 81 Assault Sqd R.E.
This is the text of the recommendation.
"On 28 February 1945, Capt XXXX was commanding a Troop of AVsRE under command 11 Armd Div. He was ordered to make a fascine crossing over a stream North of Kervehheim. This involved Capt XXXX and some of his men working outside their AVsRE under heavy mortar fire, which caused casualties to the Infantry in the vicinity. The crossing was successfully completed. Later on the crossing was reported to be failing and Capt XXXX was ordered to take up another fascine. Owing to the difficulty of the approach, he lay on top of the fascine bundle and guided the driver. During this he was wounded in the leg by Spanau fire. He then crawled forward under cover of smoke and despite heavy mortar fire and Spandau fire, he carried out a recce of the crossing. He found that the crossing was intact, but to ensure its future use he personally laid tracing tapes down to the crossing, still under fire. Capt XXXX’s complete disregard for personal danger, and his high standard of leadership and devotion to duty, ensured the continued use of this important crossing."
Sadly, there are presumably many similar acts of heroism going on today in another part of Europe.
[Post edited 9 Mar 2023 15:46]
Thank you for sharing this. What an astonishing story and what an extraordinary brave man.
It’s actually all the more amazing for two reasons. Firstly, the Germans had a habit of shooting out of hand anyone, prisoners or otherwise, connected with armoured vehicles - especially strange ones. Secondly, the war was coming to a close and many soldiers were naturally beginning to look a lot more closely at personal survival.
Yes, there were and are of course many acts of bravery which for me makes it all the more important that stories like your uncle’s are told and recorded. When you have finished researching if I was you I’d send a copy of your findings and the citation, at the very least to the RE museum in Chatham (possibly Bovington too). It’s important it’s not lost.
For anyone who is reading this and doesn’t know, a fascine is basically a huge roll of sticks. A Churchill tank would carry them like a carpet roll and they’d be dropped into ditches, stream, trenches. Though looking fragile they weren’t. They would allow armoured vehicles to pass over without getting stuck, basically. A clever bit of kit!
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Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 17:32 - Mar 9 with 1422 views
Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 17:23 - Mar 9 by Churchman
Thank you for sharing this. What an astonishing story and what an extraordinary brave man.
It’s actually all the more amazing for two reasons. Firstly, the Germans had a habit of shooting out of hand anyone, prisoners or otherwise, connected with armoured vehicles - especially strange ones. Secondly, the war was coming to a close and many soldiers were naturally beginning to look a lot more closely at personal survival.
Yes, there were and are of course many acts of bravery which for me makes it all the more important that stories like your uncle’s are told and recorded. When you have finished researching if I was you I’d send a copy of your findings and the citation, at the very least to the RE museum in Chatham (possibly Bovington too). It’s important it’s not lost.
For anyone who is reading this and doesn’t know, a fascine is basically a huge roll of sticks. A Churchill tank would carry them like a carpet roll and they’d be dropped into ditches, stream, trenches. Though looking fragile they weren’t. They would allow armoured vehicles to pass over without getting stuck, basically. A clever bit of kit!
Just spotted this on 81 Assault Squadron RE. Maybe useful, may not be.
I notice the landed on Gold Beach. My father in law was a Lieutenant on an ML navigation boat leading landing craft into that beach on DDay.
[Post edited 9 Mar 2023 17:45]
Many thanks for this, and all you've posted on this topic, which I knew very little about.
I'll make sure I create a copy of everything you've posted including the various links for my own reference, and I will do as you suggested in relation to the RE museum .
[Post edited 9 Mar 2023 17:43]
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Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 17:48 - Mar 9 with 1389 views
Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 15:45 - Mar 9 by DJR
I thought you might be interested in the fact that I have found, tucked away in a suitcase of photos etc relating to my parents, a copy of the recommendation for the award of a Military Cross to my uncle. Many thanks for prompting me to look into this.
Interestingly, the recommendation is signed by Field Marshall Montgomery, and his unit is given as 81 Assault Sqd R.E.
This is the text of the recommendation.
"On 28 February 1945, Capt XXXX was commanding a Troop of AVsRE under command 11 Armd Div. He was ordered to make a fascine crossing over a stream North of Kervehheim. This involved Capt XXXX and some of his men working outside their AVsRE under heavy mortar fire, which caused casualties to the Infantry in the vicinity. The crossing was successfully completed. Later on the crossing was reported to be failing and Capt XXXX was ordered to take up another fascine. Owing to the difficulty of the approach, he lay on top of the fascine bundle and guided the driver. During this he was wounded in the leg by Spanau fire. He then crawled forward under cover of smoke and despite heavy mortar fire and Spandau fire, he carried out a recce of the crossing. He found that the crossing was intact, but to ensure its future use he personally laid tracing tapes down to the crossing, still under fire. Capt XXXX’s complete disregard for personal danger, and his high standard of leadership and devotion to duty, ensured the continued use of this important crossing."
Sadly, there are presumably many similar acts of heroism going on today in another part of Europe.
[Post edited 9 Mar 2023 15:46]
Incredible story and one which deserves a wider audience.
I know I keep banging on about the We Have Ways pod but I'm sure they'd love to hear about this as part of their Family Stories feature: https://wehavewayspod.com/family-stories/
It's 106 miles to Portman Road, we've got a full tank of gas, half a round of Port Salut, it's dark... and we're wearing blue tinted sunglasses.
Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 17:48 - Mar 9 by Plums
Incredible story and one which deserves a wider audience.
I know I keep banging on about the We Have Ways pod but I'm sure they'd love to hear about this as part of their Family Stories feature: https://wehavewayspod.com/family-stories/
Great idea
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Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 17:56 - Mar 9 with 1378 views
Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 17:42 - Mar 9 by DJR
Many thanks for this, and all you've posted on this topic, which I knew very little about.
I'll make sure I create a copy of everything you've posted including the various links for my own reference, and I will do as you suggested in relation to the RE museum .
[Post edited 9 Mar 2023 17:43]
No problem.
An interesting fact about the Corps of Royal Engineers is that they have no battle honours. Their motto is ‘Ubique’. It means ‘Everywhere’ which says it all, really. The Engineers also played in the first FA Cup Final in 1872, but won it in 1875!
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Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 18:26 - Mar 9 with 1348 views
Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 17:48 - Mar 9 by Plums
Incredible story and one which deserves a wider audience.
I know I keep banging on about the We Have Ways pod but I'm sure they'd love to hear about this as part of their Family Stories feature: https://wehavewayspod.com/family-stories/
Many thanks for the suggestion.
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Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 18:57 - Mar 9 with 1288 views
Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 14:48 - Feb 12 by Guthrum
If they're mounting a major offensive with hastily-trained conscripts lacking adequate armoured and air support against a dug-in enemy, numbers like that are actually not unrealistic (the first day of the Somme cost around 25,000 Anglo-French lives and parts of it were considerably more successful than the Russians have been recently).
Tho your point about the unreliability of casualty figures is absolutely true. Over-reporting of damage to the enemy and under-reporting of that received has always been endemic in war, right back to Ancient Egyptian royal monuments.
The figures on the Somme were dwarfed by the first few months of WW1, as much as is now happening in Ukraine with Russian soldiers
In 1914 mass ranks of French infantry were hurled against German machine guns. The theory (flawed) was that breech loading rifles could not stop the oncoming masses, who armed with 20 inch bayonets would eventually rout/kill them.
27,000 were killed on 22nd Aug 1914. Great masses crossing open fields in full view of the enemy. Those in command having little knowledge of what was happening beyond reports that 'the enemy has not been driven from the field'. With a response being 'send in more troops'
Much of the pre trench fighting was carried out in that fashion (to help the slaughter the French soldiers were wore bright red trousers). The talk was of 'carrying the day'. I doubt most generals thought the war would more than a month, at best - never mind four years, so expend whatever is needed to secure a victory.
In Ukraine the suggestion is that Putin and others believed Russian soldiers would be welcomed as liberators, but are now bogged down trying to gain something to bargain with.
If it is sensed that at some point Russia will pull out then the war will continue. If however, Russia will continue whatever the cost in lives then a negotiated peace might be on the cards - is what I suspect is in the Russian minds
So untrained conscripts are thrown into this meat grinder like a poker player bluffing, as he borrows more chips to back his hand.
And yes ,an horrific loss of live for all concerned, on both sides. Lives that had mothers, wives, children, friends etc
'Seek not for whom the bell tolis..............."
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Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 19:45 - Mar 9 with 1260 views
Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 18:57 - Mar 9 by HARRY10
The figures on the Somme were dwarfed by the first few months of WW1, as much as is now happening in Ukraine with Russian soldiers
In 1914 mass ranks of French infantry were hurled against German machine guns. The theory (flawed) was that breech loading rifles could not stop the oncoming masses, who armed with 20 inch bayonets would eventually rout/kill them.
27,000 were killed on 22nd Aug 1914. Great masses crossing open fields in full view of the enemy. Those in command having little knowledge of what was happening beyond reports that 'the enemy has not been driven from the field'. With a response being 'send in more troops'
Much of the pre trench fighting was carried out in that fashion (to help the slaughter the French soldiers were wore bright red trousers). The talk was of 'carrying the day'. I doubt most generals thought the war would more than a month, at best - never mind four years, so expend whatever is needed to secure a victory.
In Ukraine the suggestion is that Putin and others believed Russian soldiers would be welcomed as liberators, but are now bogged down trying to gain something to bargain with.
If it is sensed that at some point Russia will pull out then the war will continue. If however, Russia will continue whatever the cost in lives then a negotiated peace might be on the cards - is what I suspect is in the Russian minds
So untrained conscripts are thrown into this meat grinder like a poker player bluffing, as he borrows more chips to back his hand.
And yes ,an horrific loss of live for all concerned, on both sides. Lives that had mothers, wives, children, friends etc
'Seek not for whom the bell tolis..............."
I would not denigrate Allied Somme casualties with a term like ‘dwarfed’. Casualties on 1 July 1916 were about 60,000, 19,000 killed. The battle that raged for months cost 420,000 British casualties plus Indian, Canadian, Australian, NZ and others, 125,000 killed. France in that horror suffered 200,000 and Germany about 500,000 killed and injured.
Literally unimaginable numbers. Part of the reason for the Somme offensive was to relieve pressure on Verdun. In that, Germany lost 337,000 (143,000 killed) and France 377,000 (162,000 killed).
3rd Ypres (Passchendaele) cost is disputed but the late Professor Richard Holmes (if you ever get a chance to watch War Walks, do so) reckons 260,000 each for the allies and Germans. For deadliest single day, see the attached.
The Battle of the Frontiers was the biggest loss in a single day, as you rightly point out. Interestingly you rightly note French troops’ uniforms, especially the red trousers. Germany and Britain had the only vaguely camouflaged kit. It was made of wool. The best rifle was the British SMLE. Accurate, not too long and well made. The German pattern 98 was also good, but a long rifle. The French used a Lebel rifle dating from the 1880s
The numbers are beyond comprehension. No family in this country or across Europe and much of the world was left unaffected. And that’s before you get to the survivors and what they had to live with. It’s no surprise appeasement was the main policy during the 1930s. Who’d want a repeat of that? Apart from a madman with a dodgy tache and a load of his lunatic friends.
[Post edited 9 Mar 2023 19:50]
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Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 20:36 - Mar 9 with 1220 views
The early months of WW1 saw what would later be regarded as reckless pitch battles fought 'out in the open'. Soldiers were thrown into battle with little planning and often no idea what they were up against.
In those autumn months in the race to the sea, the Germans similarly threw men into almost suicidal charges as they tried to throw the British back and take control of the channel.
The fighting at Gheluvelt Chateau (Oct 1914) was more akin to Hastings than modern warfare (see below)
It is the nature of the fighting then that draws comparison with what is currently happening in Ukraine. The battles you mention were planned, and became long attritional struggles. Where what was seen in 1914 was brutal and bloody fighting over localised control.
What is happening in Ukraine seems more like Omdurman than two roughly equal sides slugging it out as in 1914. A well armed and well trained side against a poorly trained and armed other, though the latter has bigger numbers.
A curious footnote, one of the combatants in that above battle was a chap with a 'funny moustache'. No, not Baldrick with his Charlie Chaplin impersonation but one Adolf Schickelgruber. Odd how no DNA test has been undertaken to find out who his real father was.
Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 20:36 - Mar 9 by HARRY10
The comparison was of the percentage of deaths.
The early months of WW1 saw what would later be regarded as reckless pitch battles fought 'out in the open'. Soldiers were thrown into battle with little planning and often no idea what they were up against.
In those autumn months in the race to the sea, the Germans similarly threw men into almost suicidal charges as they tried to throw the British back and take control of the channel.
The fighting at Gheluvelt Chateau (Oct 1914) was more akin to Hastings than modern warfare (see below)
It is the nature of the fighting then that draws comparison with what is currently happening in Ukraine. The battles you mention were planned, and became long attritional struggles. Where what was seen in 1914 was brutal and bloody fighting over localised control.
What is happening in Ukraine seems more like Omdurman than two roughly equal sides slugging it out as in 1914. A well armed and well trained side against a poorly trained and armed other, though the latter has bigger numbers.
A curious footnote, one of the combatants in that above battle was a chap with a 'funny moustache'. No, not Baldrick with his Charlie Chaplin impersonation but one Adolf Schickelgruber. Odd how no DNA test has been undertaken to find out who his real father was.
My knowledge of early WW1 isn’t the best, not least because personal interest begins in 1915. But I’ve read a little on it including Hastings’ Catastrophe and Lyn McDonald. The impression I get is one of a young nation successfully defeating France in the 1870s, militaristic, professional, ambitious and sure of itself with a plan.
France still imbued with the spirit of the Grand Army desperately wanting to keep its country and its place against a growing enemy. But who was the enemy? Britain or Germany? Without checking I don’t think the Entente Cordiale was ever a formal treaty and Britain’s huge navy was built with the arrival of ironclads (Warrior etc) to defeat France before the Kaiser decided he wanted a navy.
The Schlieffen Plan looked perfect - until it went wrong. Just like every plan in The first few years of WW1 went wrong. The British Army was not a factor in the early period. The ‘old contemptibles’ were small in number, but professional and able to fire 15 rounds a minute. They were of course effective but destroyed within a few months.
Every battle seemed to start with a good plan that fell apart, except from the last one when the German army was on the point of total destruction by Nov 1918. By then the British had a steamroller of an army coordinated with air support and effective use of tanks. .
The difference to Russia now is that they’re happy to use Stalingrad human wave tactics in belief numbers will overcome quality. They may be right, but like the Iran/Iraq war it’s staggering they’re prepared to do this. In WW1 they had to develop ways to overcome a dug in foe. They didn’t know how to do it.
Russia today is not interested when it can simply throw bodies at the problem.
[Post edited 11 Mar 2023 8:02]
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Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 13:13 - Mar 10 with 1025 views
Spent a couple of hours reading through this thread late last night. A very good & interesting read. There are some very learned historians here. Quite a few things I didn't realise & have updated on. Very informative & hope many more than me appreciate it.
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Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 19:15 - Mar 10 with 962 views
Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 13:13 - Mar 10 by BlueForYou
Spent a couple of hours reading through this thread late last night. A very good & interesting read. There are some very learned historians here. Quite a few things I didn't realise & have updated on. Very informative & hope many more than me appreciate it.
It’s an interesting subject and its relevance to today’s horrors is important.
The humbling part of this thread is the story of DJRs uncle’s war. The word brave really doesn’t cover it.
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Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 10:55 - Mar 12 with 791 views
On the subject of utter waste of lives, I was recently reading about the Napoleonic Wars. Enormous & shocking loss of lives over a few years. His invasion of Russia was sheer lunacy, & so many lives lost in Spain too. We should all be very grateful to have lived through a peaceful period in our history.
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Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 11:14 - Mar 12 with 779 views
Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 10:55 - Mar 12 by BlueForYou
On the subject of utter waste of lives, I was recently reading about the Napoleonic Wars. Enormous & shocking loss of lives over a few years. His invasion of Russia was sheer lunacy, & so many lives lost in Spain too. We should all be very grateful to have lived through a peaceful period in our history.
Napoleon’s Grand Armee was an astonishing force. Its numbers range depending on who you include and when, but 600,000 is a good start, though men came and went, of course.
The Russian campaign was a disaster from which it never truly recovered. Casualties amounted to about 380k.
Napoleon was an artillery man by trade and knew the value of it. That and movement. He was creative and innovative in his prime - one of the great generals along with for me Julius Caesar and Hannibal.
If memory serves me right, he wasn’t personally involved in the Peninsula War (Sharpe & co) and what should have been easy turned horrific for France. The cruelty of that war knows no bounds. Goya paintings and prints give us more than a clue on that. The Peninsular War didn’t make Wellington’s name (once nicknamed the Sepoy General), but it certainly cemented it.
Wars of the Napoleonic period are largely up close and personal and if you didn’t die by the enemy’s hand, disease or something else like cold and hunger (retreat from Moscow) would get you.
Oh yes, we are lucky not to have lived in those times.
[Post edited 12 Mar 2023 11:21]
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Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 10:24 - Apr 5 with 563 views
Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 19:15 - Mar 10 by Churchman
It’s an interesting subject and its relevance to today’s horrors is important.
The humbling part of this thread is the story of DJRs uncle’s war. The word brave really doesn’t cover it.
In amongst a suitcase of family papers, I came across a Scottish national newspaper article about the role of my uncle in the surrender of Boulogne. Presumably such stories were permitted because they were thought to boost morale.
The following is what the article says.
Story of Boulogne Surrender
When the bitter fighting for Boulogne, in which Canadian infantry was supported by tanks of a British assault squadron of the Royal Engineers, came to an end the German commander of Boulogne surrendered to a young R.E lieutenant.
During the parley which proceeded the final surrender the German colonel decided he could not surrender to a lieutenant and asked for an interview with a British colonel. As it was a Canadian infantry attack, the surrender was finally made to a Canadian colonel. The lieutenant, whose squadron reduced the gates of the citadel and opened the way for the attack which brought about its final collapse, is Lieutenant XXXX of XXX.
Lieutenant XXXX, describing the fall of the citadel, said-
“I was in charge of a troop, and under covering fire from an assault team of Royal Engineers, I moved forward to the main gate of the citadel. This gateway was a huge arch over the road into the citadel, the name “citadel” meaning the old town of Boulogne, which is surrounded by a high wall and four gateways.
The gate we were to attack was blocked with eight horizontal steel rails each about seven feet high. We shot the steel rails away and a number of land mines behind the gate, and then moved forward, when my tank slid into a shell hole and stuck. I climbed out of my tank and ordered another tank to tow us out when I noticed a number of white flags being waved from the top of the walls of the citadel.
I then turned my guns on to the Germans and ordered them to advance to where I was standing. Some thirty Germans and two Canadians who had been prisoners for five days came forward with a German officer who spoke English. He then looked at my two pips rather doubtfully and asked if he could surrender to an officer of equivalent rank to his commander.
Eventually, a Canadian colonel of equal rank came along with some of his men and the surrender was then agreed upon by the garrison commander, who felt that his honour had been saved.”
EDIT: I forgot to say that my uncle was given the binoculars of the German officer.
[Post edited 5 Apr 2023 10:42]
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Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 13:01 - Apr 5 with 446 views
Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 10:24 - Apr 5 by DJR
In amongst a suitcase of family papers, I came across a Scottish national newspaper article about the role of my uncle in the surrender of Boulogne. Presumably such stories were permitted because they were thought to boost morale.
The following is what the article says.
Story of Boulogne Surrender
When the bitter fighting for Boulogne, in which Canadian infantry was supported by tanks of a British assault squadron of the Royal Engineers, came to an end the German commander of Boulogne surrendered to a young R.E lieutenant.
During the parley which proceeded the final surrender the German colonel decided he could not surrender to a lieutenant and asked for an interview with a British colonel. As it was a Canadian infantry attack, the surrender was finally made to a Canadian colonel. The lieutenant, whose squadron reduced the gates of the citadel and opened the way for the attack which brought about its final collapse, is Lieutenant XXXX of XXX.
Lieutenant XXXX, describing the fall of the citadel, said-
“I was in charge of a troop, and under covering fire from an assault team of Royal Engineers, I moved forward to the main gate of the citadel. This gateway was a huge arch over the road into the citadel, the name “citadel” meaning the old town of Boulogne, which is surrounded by a high wall and four gateways.
The gate we were to attack was blocked with eight horizontal steel rails each about seven feet high. We shot the steel rails away and a number of land mines behind the gate, and then moved forward, when my tank slid into a shell hole and stuck. I climbed out of my tank and ordered another tank to tow us out when I noticed a number of white flags being waved from the top of the walls of the citadel.
I then turned my guns on to the Germans and ordered them to advance to where I was standing. Some thirty Germans and two Canadians who had been prisoners for five days came forward with a German officer who spoke English. He then looked at my two pips rather doubtfully and asked if he could surrender to an officer of equivalent rank to his commander.
Eventually, a Canadian colonel of equal rank came along with some of his men and the surrender was then agreed upon by the garrison commander, who felt that his honour had been saved.”
EDIT: I forgot to say that my uncle was given the binoculars of the German officer.
[Post edited 5 Apr 2023 10:42]
Thank you for posting this. Absolutely fascinating. Talk about your uncle being part of history..
I read a book last month called Burning Steel: A Tank Regiment at War 1939-1945 by Peter Hart. It’s well worth a read as it goes into how a tank regiment (in this case the Fife and Forfar Yeomanry) operated. It’s relevant as it goes into the every day stuff like food/how the lived etc. It’s hard to get the modern mind round how people of that time got through it. The same conditions and risks would have applied to AVREs etc. I strongly recommend reading it.
In terms of what was published, good news stories were often were frequently with inaccuracies left in (e.g. Battle of Britain claims). Fully understandable. Bad news was often published too. There was a publication during the war called The War Illustrated by Hammerton (I’ve all the WW1 and 2 bound copies). The propaganda and misinformation is phenomenal, but that did not stop them publishing on the front cover a full page pic of the aircraft carrier HMS Courageous sinking with the loss of about 500 men in Sept 1939.
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